Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

[TomcatViP]

Nice read. Thanks!

 

[Airplane]

Wynne is still very active in the AFA and Air Force leadership does at least hear him out.

On a related matter: interesting interview with former Air Force Chief of Staff Merrill McPeak (F-22 related excerpt below).

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/sd-me-mcpeak-speaks-20171113-story.html

Carl Prine: As an outsider, maybe I’m looking at this as you don’t get all the credit you
deserve for doing some good things and you get too much blame for other things. I don’t think
you get enough credit for the F-22. You were driving a lot of that.

Merrill McPeak: Right. And including trying to convince Obama. I spent ‘08 in Iowa, in
the snows of Iowa, introducing Obama in high school gymnasiums. And when we get back
into the van to drive to the next stop, we’d watch basketball. And I’d try to get a word in
edgewise about the F-22.

Then he went and canceled it.

Carl Prine: That was (Secretary of Defense Bob) Gates.

Merrill McPeak: That was Gates. Don’t even get me started on that.

Carl Prine: I think he might be the most overrated Secretary of Defense ever. I really do.

Merrill McPeak: You and I should go have a beer!

Carl Prine: Gates was a great politician.

Merrill McPeak: I can think of no national security problem that was improved by Bob
Gates. But his main virtue was that he wasn’t Don Rumsfeld.

I particularly enjoyed the honest comments of the F-35.

 

[Jeb]

Watch this F-22 slam on the brakes at 0:36.

https://youtu.be/XOV_ovsq8HE?t=36s

 

[TomcatViP]

Well spoted!

 

[marauder2048]

Watch this F-22 slam on the brakes at 0:36.

But his pursuer didn't fly right by!

 

[NeilChapman]

Damaged F-22 makes comeback after six-year repair job

A Lockheed Martin F-22 grounded since a trainee pilot’s error led to a crash landing in May 2012 could be ready to return to service next March after a nearly six-year-long repair job, according to a new US Air force document.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/damaged-f-22-makes-comeback-after-six-year-repair-jo-444022/

If a pilot does a belly landing in war the jet is out unless the war lasts longer than 6 years? That seems too long a time to repair.

 

[Airplane]

Damaged F-22 makes comeback after six-year repair job

A Lockheed Martin F-22 grounded since a trainee pilot’s error led to a crash landing in May 2012 could be ready to return to service next March after a nearly six-year-long repair job, according to a new US Air force document.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/damaged-f-22-makes-comeback-after-six-year-repair-jo-444022/

If a pilot does a belly landing in war the jet is out unless the war lasts longer than 6 years? That seems too long a time to repair.

Sounds like an exercise in engineering.

BTW, how many years have we been at war right now?

 

[bobbymike]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/us-f-22-raptors-fire-flares-chase-russian-fighters-out-of-deconfliction-zone-over-syria/article/2643497

I'm sure they were keeping up international relations.............ya know giving them the bird

 

[sferrin]

BTW, how many years have we been at war right now?

By the definition you're implying? Zero.

 

[Airplane]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/us-f-22-raptors-fire-flares-chase-russian-fighters-out-of-deconfliction-zone-over-syria/article/2643497

I'm sure they were keeping up international relations.............ya know giving them the bird

Any idea how close they got? That would be awesome video if it's like the stuff we see of Sukhois flying off the wingtips of our 'spy' planes.

Also, why wouldn't just use Eagles for this role instead of giving Russians up close experience with Raptors?

 

[bring_it_on]

Any idea how close they got? That would be awesome video if it's like the stuff we see of Sukhois flying off the wingtips of our 'spy' planes.

There is a very strong possibility that a video of this incidence exists.

 

[Airplane]

Any idea how close they got? That would be awesome video if it's like the stuff we see of Sukhois flying off the wingtips of our 'spy' planes.

There is a very strong possibility that a video of this incidence exists.

Call me crazy, but I think the Ruskies may actually try to take out an F-22 by "accidentally" bumping into one... What rules (do we know of) are our aviators flying with when the Russians do something stupid like try to barrel roll over a -22?

 

[sferrin]

Any idea how close they got? That would be awesome video if it's like the stuff we see of Sukhois flying off the wingtips of our 'spy' planes.

There is a very strong possibility that a video of this incidence exists.

Call me crazy, but I think the Ruskies may actually try to take out an F-22 by "accidentally" bumping into one... What rules (do we know of) are our aviators flying with when the Russians do something stupid like try to barrel roll over a -22?

Do you honestly believe F-22 pilots are dumb enough to let that happen? An F-22 isn't a P-3.

 

[Airplane]

Any idea how close they got? That would be awesome video if it's like the stuff we see of Sukhois flying off the wingtips of our 'spy' planes.

There is a very strong possibility that a video of this incidence exists.

Call me crazy, but I think the Ruskies may actually try to take out an F-22 by "accidentally" bumping into one... What rules (do we know of) are our aviators flying with when the Russians do something stupid like try to barrel roll over a -22?

Do you honestly believe F-22 pilots are dumb enough to let that happen? An F-22 isn't a P-3.

Obviously not, but what are rules they fly under when the Russians get too close? It's a valid question regardless of what you think.

 

[TomcatViP]

ON CNN, there was the specific mention that the 22 pilot had to manoeuvre to prevent a collision attempt.

"One Su-25 flew close enough to an F-22A that it had to aggressively maneuver to avoid a midair collision,"

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/14/politics/us-f-22-intercept-russian-jets-syria/index.html

 

[sferrin]

ON CNN, there was the specific mention that the 22 pilot had to manoeuvre to prevent a collision attempt.

"One Su-25 flew close enough to an F-22A that it had to aggressively maneuver to avoid a midair collision,"

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/14/politics/us-f-22-intercept-russian-jets-syria/index.html

Yep. Which would indicate they wouldn't just fly straight and dumb waiting to get hit. Also, I'm sure they'll be watching for the possibility going forward.

 

[Airplane]

If you don't believe there are rules in place on how to handle aggressive Russians just because our pilots are not dumb, then whatever.

 

[sferrin]

If you don't believe there are rules in place on how to handle aggressive Russians just because our pilots are not dumb, then whatever.

You're the one who can't seem to decide if F-22 pilots are stupid enough to allow a Frogfoot to ram them.

 

[NeilChapman]

If you don't believe there are rules in place on how to handle aggressive Russians just because our pilots are not dumb, then whatever.

You're the one who can't seem to decide if F-22 pilots are stupid enough to allow a Frogfoot to ram them.

I'm guessing there are two rules...

1. Always be ready to kill the other guy.
2. Don't do stupid shit.

It's likely that "don't allow the other guy to ram your plane" falls under the 2nd rule.

An F-22 is likely to negate entire squadrons of enemy aircraft. This fact is obviously not unknown to Raptor drivers. But I would doubt there are "specific" rules just for F-22's. All US fighter pilots would frown upon losing their ride for a bit of bump and tickle at 25k feet.

 

[sferrin]

But I would doubt there are "specific" rules just for F-22's. All US fighter pilots would frown upon losing their ride for a bit of bump and tickle at 25k feet.

Oh, for sure.

 

[bring_it_on]

H/t to TomcatVip from Keypubs:

One thing the jets could not share is the F-35’s electro-optical targeting system (EOTS), the diamond-shaped wedge under the F-35’s “chin” that provides many of the visual and infrared sensors other jets must carry in pods. Though the Air Force is considering an infrared search and track (IRST) system for the F-22 to help it better see stealthy adversaries, Merchant said, “we really don’t have the real estate” in the same location on the F-22. “We’re looking at other options.” He was unable to elaborate due to classification.

In cooperation with the Air Combat Command, Merchant said, Lockheed is looking at trying out some new capabilities for the F-35 on the F-22 first.

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2018/February%202018/The-F-35-and-F-22-Teach-Teach-Other-New-Tricks.aspx

 

[sferrin]

Thought there was an empty space for the IRST like there is for side arrays? ???

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

It’s possible that after the deletion of the AIRST requirement, other components like wiring or avionics racks were rearranged to make use of the freed up space. That being said, the EOTS assembly itself doesn’t seem particularly bulky though, but perhaps freeing up space for it and additional supporting items (i.e. cooling, wiring) may be too involved and expensive?

 

[Colonial-Marine]

If only there was a production line up and running which could incorporate changes like an IRST into new aircraft and maybe even retrofit old ones. A crazy thought I know. Blessed be the wisdom of former DefSec Gates.

Question to anybody with a better understanding of aerodynamics about me, what about the F-22's design necessitated such large vertical stabilizers?

 

[Sundog]

Question to anybody with a better understanding of aerodynamics about me, what about the F-22's design necessitated such large vertical stabilizers?

Basically, there has been a history of high-alpha/high speed aircraft having vertical tails too small for the stability and control requirements. So LM decided to be extremely conservative in their design and make them so large they knew they wouldn't have a problem, other than added weight, drag, and cost; apparently, their trade studies showed it was worth the trade off.

Of course, IMHO, they make the F-22 kind of butt ugly, both figuratively and literally, as a result. But aircraft are designed to mission requirements, not looks. Needless to say, I am cutting the VT's down on my model kits; because I can.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Question to anybody with a better understanding of aerodynamics about me, what about the F-22's design necessitated such large vertical stabilizers?

Basically, there has been a history of high-alpha/high speed aircraft having vertical tails too small for the stability and control requirements. So LM decided to be extremely conservative in their design and make them so large they knew they wouldn't have a problem, other than added weight, drag, and cost; apparently, their trade studies showed it was worth the trade off.

Of course, IMHO, they make the F-22 kind of butt ugly, both figuratively and literally, as a result. But aircraft are designed to mission requirements, not looks. Needless to say, I am cutting the VT's down on my model kits; because I can.

Can you do that and still call the result an F-22. Surely naming a kit after an existing product, means the design should be the same?
What are the existing laws ref product description and kit naming?

 

[sferrin]

Question to anybody with a better understanding of aerodynamics about me, what about the F-22's design necessitated such large vertical stabilizers?

Basically, there has been a history of high-alpha/high speed aircraft having vertical tails too small for the stability and control requirements. So LM decided to be extremely conservative in their design and make them so large they knew they wouldn't have a problem, other than added weight, drag, and cost; apparently, their trade studies showed it was worth the trade off.

Of course, IMHO, they make the F-22 kind of butt ugly, both figuratively and literally, as a result. But aircraft are designed to mission requirements, not looks. Needless to say, I am cutting the VT's down on my model kits; because I can.

Still better than the YF-22. Those tails were HUGE.

 

[Sundog]

Still better than the YF-22. Those tails were HUGE.

Definitely.

 

[Sundog]

Can you do that and still call the result an F-22. Surely naming a kit after an existing product, means the design should be the same?
What are the existing laws ref product description and kit naming?

Given the number of model kits that have been produced with a number of inaccuracies; Yeah, no problem.

 

[bobbymike]

https://www.themaven.net/warriormaven/air/air-force-preps-f-22-for-2060-new-sensors-radar-avionics-ai-BMw9vbS3xk2dymJlS4PW2g?utm_source=RC+Defense+Morning+Recon&utm_campaign=34652d2709-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_02_04&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_694f73a8dc-34652d2709-81812733

 

[bobbymike]

https://www.themaven.net/warriormaven/air/f-22-refines-dogfighting-air-to-air-combat-ops-icdFasQ2JkSLMD12bysHBQ

 

[bring_it_on]

...

 

[bobbymike]

Charlie - And how exactly did you do that Maverick?
Maverick - I was inverted
Iceman - Bulls**t!

https://www.realcleardefense.com/2018/03/01/f-22_raptor_executes_a_mind-blowing_inverted_somersault_300674.html

 

[Airplane]

Charlie - And how exactly did you do that Maverick?
Maverick - I was inverted
Iceman - Bulls**t!

https://www.realcleardefense.com/2018/03/01/f-22_raptor_executes_a_mind-blowing_inverted_somersault_300674.html

I sure am glad that we decided it was too obsolete to build another 180 to hold us over until (if) the NGAD machine comes on line.

 

[Triton]

Charlie - And how exactly did you do that Maverick?
Maverick - I was inverted
Iceman - Bulls**t!

https://www.realcleardefense.com/2018/03/01/f-22_raptor_executes_a_mind-blowing_inverted_somersault_300674.html

https://youtu.be/mx23RYC5Tks

 

[Empire]

The US Air Force estimates it would cost more than $1.7 billion over 11 years to upgrade 34 Lockheed Martin F-22s Block 20 Raptors to Block 30/35 configuration.
This is partly because some items are no longer in production, like the upgraded APG-77 variant used on the 30/35.
This is the last I heard on this!!! Did congress turn it down or is it hidden in the budget some where? Anyone hear anything? Some things no longer in production but what do they do when those some things really break on the aircraft??

 

[NeilChapman]

https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/how-chinas-new-stealth-fighter-could-soon-surpass-the-us-f-22-raptor/

Interesting point made re:slow pace of upgrades to F-22. Makes me think about the disruptive changes in auto and rocket industries instigated by Musk. Musk has his desk in the middle of the Tesla plant. He's chief designer for SpaceX and knows every bolt in Falcon 9. Who at LM, Boeing or NG has that level of drive, expertise and the wherewithal/freedom to execute?

Do we need a Musk or another Hughes in the aircraft industry?

 

[bring_it_on]

The problem might not be something that requires a company CEO from sticking his desk on just one aspect of his/her companies business and getting things moving faster. The problem may have to do with the fleet size, and no active program that can amortize more expensive development expenditure. Just google the total cost to the taxpayer of Increment-3 capability and on a per unit basis, it is quite a lot of money. Had we had 400 aircraft there would have more incentive to aim for faster and more giant leaps. That said, an architecture overhaul and a move towards Open Mission System architectures are expected next to the program so that should help. Imagine if the aircraft would have been built like we did with the F-15s and you would have much more capability at this stage given the economies of scale and a hot production line. But no, wishful thinking and the massive amount of money spent in Iraq basically put an end to that as it did with so many other plans.

 

[Antonio]

Do we need a Musk or another Hughes in the aircraft industry?

In the AI/robots era, talented people makes the difference more than ever

 

[NeilChapman]

The US Air Force estimates it would cost more than $1.7 billion over 11 years to upgrade 34 Lockheed Martin F-22s Block 20 Raptors to Block 30/35 configuration.
This is partly because some items are no longer in production, like the upgraded APG-77 variant used on the 30/35.
This is the last I heard on this!!! Did congress turn it down or is it hidden in the budget some where? Anyone hear anything? Some things no longer in production but what do they do when those some things really break on the aircraft??

But they can't look at using F-35's APG-81 radar until they start the upgrade program. Do these numbers make any sense? $50m per jet?

This sounds like $29.95 to me. You know the drill. Late night TV. "What's the max they'll pay without thinking about it?" $29.95. If you wanted to make it sound like you'd actually worked the numbers you'd say $47.83M or something. Picking $50M is just lazy.

And 11 years? That's 132 months. With 800 workers that's ~515k hours per jet. For upgrades? It takes Boeing ~80 days to build a new 777.

I'd send them back to the drawing board to show me a plan with breakdowns to the hourly level per task. Something is terribly wrong here.

I might even be tempted to offer one each to LM, Boeing and NG and tell them whoever comes up with the most successful upgrade plan, with objective being <$20M, <100,000hrs per jet and a plan to finish all 34 in <4 years, gets the gig. Winner also gets some additional preference in F-22 replacement program.