Lockheed Martin and the Yak-141

[Phantom_Phlyer]

Gerard Keijsper, Lockheed F-35 JSF - Design and Development of the International Aircraft

I find it interesting that he mentions the media downplaying the importance of the event

 

[Scott Kenny]

On the Ejection seat it seems the did get it and test it
ADA321294
The K-36D Ejection Seat Foreign Comparative Testing (FCT) Program.
5/1/1996

ARMSTRONG LAB WRIGHT-PATTERSON AFB OH CREW SYSTEMS DIRECTORATE

Specker, Lawrence J.,Plaga, John A.

AL/CF-TR-1996-0099

437 pages

Not sure what else they physically had

Oh, I remember that one. Plane was nose down doing a lawn dart impression, pilot ejected within 50ft AGL basically parallel or maybe even slightly ground-pointed. And then the seat flipped him upright and up to give the chute time to open. I think the pilot had two swings under the canopy before landing!

I'm told the Thunderbird ejection at Mountain Home where they'd mis-entered the airbase altitude and the plane was still going down towards the ground at ~200kts was more technically difficult, but when the plane is horizontal it doesn't look all that impressive.

 

[paralay]

On the Ejection seat it seems the did get it and test it
ADA321294
The K-36D Ejection Seat Foreign Comparative Testing (FCT) Program.
5/1/1996

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Earlier Yak-38 and Yak-141 assessment efforts before the deal

Interesting read - thanks. Art Nall owns a Sea Harrier and has flown it on the airshow circuit for a few years, saw it once here in St. Louis.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[riggerrob]

Oh, I remember that one. Plane was nose down doing a lawn dart impression, pilot ejected within 50ft AGL basically parallel or maybe even slightly ground-pointed. And then the seat flipped him upright and up to give the chute time to open. I think the pilot had two swings under the canopy before landing!

I'm told the Thunderbird ejection at Mountain Home where they'd mis-entered the airbase altitude and the plane was still going down towards the ground at ~200kts was more technically difficult, but when the plane is horizontal it doesn't look all that impressive.

The fuselage might have been horizontal, but it still had a rapid rate of descent. You can stall any wing at any airspeed if you pull hard enough on the stick. IOW you can stall any wing if you exceed the critical angle of attack.

 

[djfawcett]

Yakovlev didn't own the nozzle design, but they did have operational experience with it. Apparently Lockheed got very little for they money.

Gas driven lift fan didn't work so MDD/Northrop/BAE switched to lift jets. This basically killed their bid.

I stand corrected concerning MDD. At the time, a senior engineer on the project was my next door neighbor. He was a huge proponent on the gas system. Then he went silent. I heard about the lift jets, but I didn't think they were the final proposal. Concerning Yak, I was dealing with Sergei Yakovlev Jr. during the transaction period. You would have never guessed they didn't own the system, but they were instrumental rectifying several "bugs" so I was told. I didn't make any difference who owned the system in Russia. Somebody was going to sell it, and Lockheed bought the "bridge".

 

[djfawcett]

BS.

Pretty strong response given that Lockheed actually did transfer funds at that time. Whether it was for the swivel system, operations, etc., that is the real question. I match your BS and raise you one.

 

[flateric]

Still I wonder why so many do not understand that Yakovlev didn't design and build 3BSD nozzle for Article 48, neither have patent rights or authority to share or sell anything on R-79V-300 and nozzle. As well that R-R build 3BSD nozzle for F-35.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The fuselage might have been horizontal, but it still had a rapid rate of descent. You can stall any wing at any airspeed if you pull hard enough on the stick. IOW you can stall any wing if you exceed the critical angle of attack.

Right. Does not LOOK impressive, you can't see the vertical velocity in a picture. Plane pancaked into the runway at what, 200+ knots vertical speed?

While having your plane doing a lawn dart and punching out that close to the ground without turning the pilot into a pizza looks impressive as hell.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I'm still wondering why Lockheed would the ones giving Yakovlev money when it was McDonnell Douglas who was scrounging for STOVL expertise. On top of that Lockheed had the Convair 200 (which could have been JSF in the 80s) to draw on.

Lockheed were after operational data and experience to validate their calculations. Convair 200 did not generate operational data or experience. This is all documented above, should you read the articles.

McDonnell-Douglas had Harrier knowledge plus BAE Systems were also part of the same team. Thats' why it was dubbed the 'dream team'.

Boeing was the company 'scrounging for STOVL expertise'.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Pretty strong response given that Lockheed actually did transfer funds at that time. Whether it was for the swivel system, operations, etc., that is the real question. I match your BS and raise you one.

Legally speaking, Yakovlev had no rights to sell regarding the swivel nozzle, they didn't design it. I can't see Lockheed paying for rights to an engine design feature to the airframe manufacturer - if they did, they got swindled bigtime.

They might have paid for information and documentation about the nozzle, as clearly Yakovlev would have that for their own purposes. However, surely it was the engine companies who needed this data more than Lockheed?

Lockheed also gathered information on the automatic ejection system. There was even a US company set up to resell this at the time, but like the ejection seat, I think it was rejected.

 

[Phantom_Phlyer]

Legally speaking, Yakovlev had no rights to sell regarding the swivel nozzle, they didn't design it. I can't see Lockheed paying for rights to an engine design feature to the airframe manufacturer unless they got swindled bigtime.

They might have paid for information and documentation about the nozzle, as clearly Yakovlev would have that for their own purposes. However, surely it was the engine companies who needed this data more than Lockheed?

So if the argument is that the Soviets did not create the design of the R-79V-300, then who did and with what airframe?

 

[Phantom_Phlyer]

I stand corrected concerning MDD. At the time, a senior engineer on the project was my next door neighbor. He was a huge proponent on the gas system. Then he went silent. I heard about the lift jets, but I didn't think they were the final proposal. Concerning Yak, I was dealing with Sergei Yakovlev Jr. during the transaction period. You would have never guessed they didn't own the system, but they were instrumental rectifying several "bugs" so I was told. I didn't make any difference who owned the system in Russia. Somebody was going to sell it, and Lockheed bought the "bridge".

So you were someone who was involved with LM / Yak when they were doing the trading of information and funds, if I'm understanding that correctly?

 

[djfawcett]

So you were someone who was involved with LM / Yak when they were doing the trading of information and funds, if I'm understanding that correctly?

I was involved with both during that time period, but not the swivel exhaust. It was an entirely different project. At the time, it seemed that everything in the Russian military complex was for sale at the right price.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

So if the argument is that the Soviets did not create the design of the R-79V-300, then who did and with what airframe?

AMNTK Soyuz, the engine design bureau. Aircraft engines are generally designed by engine design companies. The Yak-41 was the intended airframe for it.

 

[Phantom_Phlyer]

I was involved with both during that time period, but not the swivel exhaust. It was an entirely different project. At the time, it seemed that everything in the Russian military complex was for sale at the right price.

So, do you know what was perhaps traded in that period because that is one of the biggest questions I have regarding the research piece I'm trying to right

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I was involved with both during that time period, but not the swivel exhaust. It was an entirely different project. At the time, it seemed that everything in the Russian military complex was for sale at the right price.

In 1995 Vympel were trying to sell the R-73 AAM to the US. So yes, it was fire sale time.

 

[Phantom_Phlyer]

O

AMNTK Soyuz, the engine design bureau. Aircraft engines are generally designed by engine design companies. The Yak-41 was the intended airframe for it.

Oh oh oh, I get what you're saying. I read that wrong, my apologies

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

So, do you know what was perhaps traded in that period because that is one of the biggest questions I have regarding the research piece I'm trying to right

How about reading some of the articles I posted which outline at least some of the transactions? You have a bunch of things we know were paid for.

 

[Phantom_Phlyer]

How about reading some of the articles I posted which outline at least some of the transactions?

Don't worry, I have them saved in a document and have started going through and taking notes on some of it, but it's also beneficial to get a firsthand account directly with someone involved.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

More intangibly, Lockheed partnering with Yakovlev was countering the perception that "all the V/STOL knowledge" was in the McDonnell-Douglas / Northrop / BAE Systems "dream team".

 

[Phantom_Phlyer]

More intangibly, Lockheed partnering with Yakovlev was countering the perception that "all the V/STOL knowledge" was in the McDonnell-Douglas / Northrop / BAE Systems team.

I did see that and from what I was reading it seemed like Lockheed almost wanted to see British Aerospace get a little jealous with them going to not only a "different" company, but also one that was considered an enemy not even half a decade prior

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Because the UK was a partner on JSF and BAE Systems would end up with contracts no matter who won, I think Lockheed thought BAE Systems shouldn't have partnered with one team. This blocked Lockheed from getting the operational Harrier data they would have liked.

 

[Phantom_Phlyer]

Because the UK was a partner on JSF and BAE Systems would end up with contracts no matter who won, I think Lockheed thought BAE Systems shouldn't have partnered with one team.

I do wonder whether or not things would've played out differently had BAE been allowed to partner with Lockheed

 

[sferrin]

Lockheed were after operational data and experience to validate their calculations. Convair 200 did not generate operational data or experience. This is all documented above, should you read the articles.

McDonnell-Douglas had Harrier knowledge plus BAE Systems were also part of the same team. That's why it was dubbed the 'dream team'.

Boeing was the company 'scrounging for STOVL expertise'.

Yeah. Thought I saw McDD listed as the "scrounger' somewhere.

 

[riggerrob]

I was involved with both during that time period, but not the swivel exhaust. It was an entirely different project. At the time, it seemed that everything in the Russian military complex was for sale at the right price.

Lots of inventors file lots of patents. Some of those patents are flyable, but others have to wait for progress in materials, mathematics, manufacturing methods. etc.
Look at how parachute pioneer Floyd Smith patented a slider (opening shock reducer) in 1945, but the original pattern did not work with the round parachutes that were then in fashion.
Come the 1970s and Carl Yarbenet re-invented workable sliders for the new-fangled square parachutes (e.g. Jalbert Para-Foil).
Then - during the 1990s both Ballistic Recovery Systems and Manley Butler invented variations that worked with round parachutes.
It takes a bright engineer to refine an inventor’s concept into something that flies.
LM paid Yakovlev for their PRACTICAL refinements to swivelling jet engine nozzles.

 

[BlackBat242]

Lots of inventors file lots of patents. Some of those patents are flyable, but others have to wait for progress in materials, mathematics, manufacturing methods. etc.

Into the 1950s & 60s scientists and inventors working in electrics and electronics kept running into patents files decades earlier by Tesla, even though the technology to make the ideas work didn't exist until the 1950s & 60s.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

More intangibly, Lockheed partnering with Yakovlev was countering the perception that "all the V/STOL knowledge" was in the McDonnell-Douglas / Northrop / BAE Systems "dream team".

Another reason why it seems so odd to me that it was Boeing and not the MDD/Northrop/BAE team who got down-selected.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

They backed the wrong horse (gas driven fan) and then switched to a multi engine system that wasn't responsive to the requirement. Single engine was regarded as important.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

They backed the wrong horse (gas driven fan) and then switched to a multi engine system that wasn't responsive to the requirement. Single engine was regarded as important.

The shaft-driven lift fan had a lot going for it for sure, but I don't think it was a good thing if there was any automatic bias against using a lift jet. Designing a STOVL aircraft is inherently going to involve making compromises to achieve that goal. Boeing's design obviously had a big selling point if it could achieve the necessary thrust for STOVL performance, so yes, a strong case can be made for why they were chosen. I guess I think that while the MDD/Northrop/BAE may have been weakest in a few STOVL characteristics it was still an almost certainty it would technically work. Beyond the STOVL variant it seemed to have many characteristics in its favor.

I know the concept of down-selecting to make a "high-risk" and "low-risk" choice has been discussed before and often the DoD goes by that logic. I've heard people say the Lockheed design was the high-risk one due to the shaft-driven lift fan, but it seems to me like the Boeing design was actually that. Packing so many features that cost significant weight to incorporate into a STOVL design using direct lift? Ambitious. Lockheed had also been working within official programs preceding JSF (primarily ASTOVL) for longer than Boeing had.