Lockheed L-/CL- Temporary Design Number (TDN) designations

[circle-5]

And I was under the impression the L-200 was the early version of the Lockheed XFV-1, as identified on the side of this factory model (which came directly from Skunk Works).

 

[Stargazer]

I know about the L-300 designation for the C-141 Starlighter.

You mean Starlifter, not "Starlighter"...
I have L-200 for the commercial Starlifter and L-300 for the military one, but I'll have to verify this.

And I was under the impression the L-200 was the early version of the Lockheed XFV-1, as identified on the side of this factory model (which came directly from Skunk Works).

I thought this had been made abundantly clear previously in this thread, but anyway... YOUR "L-200" was a 1951 designation, part of the L- (later CL-) list of California Lockheed temporary design numbers that started at L-100 in 1939 and was used until the early 1980s (CL-2218 being the latest I found, but it may have extended a little further than that).

The L-200/L-300 Starlifter designations are part of a very limited set of strictly commercial designations introduced much later, in the 1960s.

 

[circle-5]

I thought this had been made abundantly clear previously in this thread, but anyway...

Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.

 

[Triton]

You mean Starlifter, not "Starlighter"...

I have L-200 for the commercial Starlifter and L-300 for the military one, but I'll have to verify this.
The L-200/L-300 Starlifter designations are part of a very limited set of strictly commercial designations introduced much later, in the 1960s.

Thanks for the clarification. I meant Starlifter and was confused why there was an L-200 and an L-300 since I had only known about the L-300.

 

[Antonio]

Does anybody knows which was the 2 February 1951 RFP GOR number won by the Lockheed CL-206 Model 82 C-130 Hercules?

Thanks in advance,

Antonio

 

[hesham]

Does anybody knows which was the 2 February 1951 RFP GOR number won by the Lockheed CL-206 Model 82 C-130 Hercules?

Thanks in advance,

Antonio

My dear Antonio,


that's hard question,but they also called it "SS400L",please see the text.

 

[Antonio]

Very interesting hesham, could you give me the source of this text?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

SS-400L is one designation, sure. Not sure if its the actual RFP though. RFP was just 7 pages, apparently, and Lockheed's response just 130 pages long.


http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/projects.html

 

[hesham]

My dear Antonio,


the source is the book, Lockheed Hercules by Francis K Mason.

 

[Antonio]

I'm not sure if we already have this GL-136 in the forum:

http://deeptowild.blogspot.com.es/2011/05/lockheed-gl-136-b-1.html

 

[hesham]

Of course we did,my dear Antonio;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7380.msg64043.html#msg64043

 

[hesham]

Hi,


does anyone hear about Lockheed CL-1147 STOL transport aircraft project ?.

 

[Stargazer]

does anyone hear about Lockheed CL-1147 STOL transport aircraft project ?.

No, I haven't. I'd be delighted to know more about this.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Skyblazer.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

does anyone hear about Lockheed CL-1147 STOL transport aircraft project ?.

No, I haven't. I'd be delighted to know more about this.

I can confirm the designation is correct.

 

[hesham]

I can confirm the designation is correct.

Thank you my dear Paul,


and do you have anything about this aircraft (CL-1147),drawing or info ?.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


if there is any drawings to Lockheed CL-1007 & CL-1010,that will be nice;


http://www.i-f-s.nl/f-104-types/

CL-1007 : Mach 2.2 version, in fact a hybrid CL-901/984 version with different avionics and radar (F15J)
L-1010 : Mach 2.4 version with R21G Nasarr and increased range capability (CL-901 based)

 

[hesham]

Hi,


the first time in my life to know that,Lockheed F-104S was given the designation CL-807,I
only read in Tony Buttler's book,the CL-807 was a study to install alternative missiles on
F-104G.


Flying Review 11/1967

 

[petebutt43@hotmail.com]

From:
Journal, American Aviation Historical Society, 1999, Summer: page 102-112, Winter: page 288-297. 2000, Spring: page 53-63

Basic Model Numbers
L-129 high-altitude bomber project competing for Type Specification XC-124 against B-27, B-28
L-136 enlarged version of CONSTELLATION, project @1944
L-137 twin engine bombardment airplane proposal
L-145 commercial transport proposal, DC-3 replacements
L-147 small commercial transport proposals
L-149 appears in some sources for the CONSTELLATION, a probable confusion with the Model 149.
L-151 unbuilt airliner project [not as reported, PTV-A-1 ramjet test vehicle (later X-7)]
L-152 medium size turboprop or turbojet commercial transport proposals
L-153 XP/F-90
L-155 commercial jet-engined transport proposals
L-170 series of projects leading to TP-80C/T-33A SHOOTING STAR
L-171 PTV-A-1 ramjet test vehicle (became X-7) [project MX-883]
L-179 jet-engined commercial transport proposals
L-182 projected ASW version of CONSTITUTION
L-183 USN Specification OS-113 (became XF3H-1), interceptor fighter proposals
L-185 commmercial transport proposals, "DC-3 replacement"
L-185 pre-U-2 high-altitude project?
L-186 jet-engined commercial transport proposals
L-187 USN Specification OS-111 (became XA3D-1), long-range carrier-based bomber proposals
L-188 several projected modifications of the F-97 nee F-94C fighter [and civil demonstrator ?]
L-189 "A specific aircraft was not designed in this preliminary study for ONR, which was a generalized data generation program for carrier based ASW aircraft to be operational in 1956.
L-190 USAF interceptor proposals
L-191 strategic turbojet engine bomber system; a system called "team bombing." Team bombing was to be use of two aircraft-one was to be a manned guide aircraft and the other a remotely controlled bomb carrier that would fly only to the target and then be expendable.
L-192 USN Specification OS-117 (became XS2F-1), anti-submarine warfare airplane proposals
L-195 nuclear engine powered aircraft proposals
L-197 ASW helicopter proposals
L-199 VG-STARFIRE all-weather trainer project
L-200 XFV-1
L-201 commercial transport airplane proposals, DC-3 replacement
L-202 day fighter proposals
L-203 liason aircraft proposals, request of AMC. Tail seater.
L-204 several projected variants of F-94C
L-206 pre-HERCULES development of L-168 project with removable cargo pod (or YC-130??)
L-207 commercial transport proposals, DC-3 reolacement
L-208 XC-Heavy Transport and Parasite/Missile carrier airplane proposals, request of AMC
L-209 parasite bomber airplane proposals
L-210 ground attack fighter proposals
L-212 nuclear engine powered aircraft proposals.
L-227 series of pre-STARFIGHTER projects
L-242 series of pre-STARFIGHTER projects (a "Model 242" was also an F-104 competing against F8U!)
L-330 projected T2V variant
L-330 VZ-10 or XV-4A HUMMINGBIRD VTOL research aircraft
L-331 XV-4B HUMMINGBIRD VTOL research aircraft
L-402 LASA-60 small civil STOL transport (2 ex.,1959); license-built by Lockheed-Azcarate SA in Mexico
L-995 S-3A VIKING
L-1400 AX competitor of YA-9A and YA-10A (L-1400-1/-2) or a variant of the LANCER
CL = Lockheed, California
Temporary Design Numbers
CL-288 intermediate long-range high-speed interceptor project; F-104 with wing-mounted jets
CL-295 variants of study concept for tail-sitting twin-jet fighter with canards (mid-1950s)
CL-303 pre-ELECTRA transport project with high wings
CL-320 intermediate long-range high-speed interceptor project
CL-330 VZ-10A (XV-4A) HUMMINGBIRD (L-331 being the XV-4B)
CL-346 F-104 derivative with wing-mounted jets
CL-351 U-2R (later TR-1) high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft
CL-351 either a STARFIGHTER-related project or as the U-2R (TR-1) DRAGON LADY
CL-407 seven concepts for supersonic (up to Mach 3) VTOL recon and attack aircraft
CL-520 AEW&C P-3 project
CL-595 XH-51A helicopter (Model 186)
CL-635 numerous space study efforts done for NASA (1964)
CL-655 TSTO project
CL-704 VTOL STARFIGHTER derivative with single RB.168R and 14 vertical-mounted RB.181s
CL-800 either a variant of the ELECTRA or a four-jet transport based on the STARLINER
CL-840 AH-56A CHEYENNE assault helicopter for US Army (Model 187) (5 built) @1962
CL-900 either an ORION-related project or an early LANCER project
CL-915 lightweight fighter projects derived from A-12/F-12 series
CL-945 retractoplane design (helicopter with folding rotor blades) (CL-945-400)
CL-980 F-104S SUPER STARFIGHTER
CL-1020 TRICEPTS electronic countermeasures modification of SP-2H NEPTUNE
CL-1026 projected civil version of GALAXY with 30 seats
CL-1090 projected civil version of GALAXY with 80 (95?) seats, 36 tons capacity
CL-1400N LANCER lightweight fighter development proposed to US Navy
CL-1600 used twice, both for the X-27 and for the Tristar Twin project. Lockheed did the same a few other times.
CL-1700 highly manoeuverable tactical ground attack helicopter project (mock-up existed)
CL-1980 projected twin-jet fighter for USAF derived from A-12/F-12 series for F-14 competition (A/N) 1973
GL = Lockheed Georgia
Temporary Design Numbers
GL-207 SUPER HERCULES project
GL-210 version of NEPTUNE for Japanese Navy (found as GK.210, probably by mistake)
GL-224 pre-HUMMINGBIRD project
GL-293 fully VTOL version of HERCULES (GL-293-11)
GL-298 proposed STOL version of HERCULES (GL-298-6/-7)

 

[hesham]

Very nice work Petebutt43,thanks.

 

[hesham]

L-402 LASA-60 small civil STOL transport (2 ex.,1959); license-built by Lockheed-Azcarate SA in Mexico

It was called CL-402,and not only L-402.

 

[Stargazer]

From:
Journal, American Aviation Historical Society, 1999, Summer: page 102-112, Winter: page 288-297. 2000, Spring: page 53-63

Thanks. I guess someone must have shared this list elsewhere before (but perhaps not on this forum?), since I don't have that issue of AAHS Journal and I already had all of these with the same wording next to them.

There is a mistake unfortunately in that the author confuses the "L-" series for Basic Model Numbers, which they aren't. They are all Temporary Design Numbers, but these started at L-100 in 1939 and the L- was replaced by CL- circa 1955, so in fact it's the same list that continues (as opposed to the GL- list which is a distinct thing).

L-330 VZ-10 or XV-4A HUMMINGBIRD VTOL research aircraft
L-331 XV-4B HUMMINGBIRD VTOL research aircraft
CL-800 either a variant of the ELECTRA or a four-jet transport based on the STARLINER
L-995 S-3A VIKING
CL-330 VZ-10A (XV-4A) HUMMINGBIRD (L-331 being the XV-4B)
CL-351 U-2R (later TR-1) high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft
CL-351 either a STARFIGHTER-related project or as the U-2R (TR-1) DRAGON LADY
proposed STOL version of HERCULES (GL-298-6/-7)

Actually these are not part of the original L-/CL- list. L-330/-331 have always been kind of mysterious to me because they neither seem to fit within the timeframe of the CL- or GL- list, nor do they look like Basic Model Numbers. "CL-330" is just plain wrong and just a typo. CL-800 was a variant of the ELECTRA. L-800 was a commercial designation for a four-jet transport based on the STARLINER. CL-351 was STARFIGHTER-related. The later reuse of that number for the U-2/TR-1 may have been a ploy to surround it with more secrecy.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Note the XV-4A HUMMINGBIRD was Lockheed Georgia. I think it was Model 330 - someone has assumed it was L-330.
CL-351 was F-104X, Mach 3.2.

S-3 was CL-995.

 

[TsrJoe]

Theres a mention in the TSR.2 files at Kew (Weybridge correspondence) of Lockheed looking at the type to fulfil a potential US. requirement (im guessing SOR.183?) did Lockheed allocate a study number or take the idea further?

cheers, Joe

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I don't think so. Their own TFX work was done under CL-590, and was VG.

 

[Stargazer]

Note the XV-4A HUMMINGBIRD was Lockheed Georgia. I think it was Model 330 - someone has assumed it was L-330.

Yes, the Hummingbird was Georgia, and the designations L-330 and L-331 have been quoted for the XV-4A and XV-4B.
The problem is that GL-330 is JetStar-related. GL-331 is unknown.
Known Hummingbird-related GL- designations are LG 4, LGX-130, GL-204, GL-230, GL-233, GL-296, GL-364 and GL-380.
So perhaps L-330 and L-331 were just commercial designations, in the manner of L-100 (civilian Hercules), L-200, L-300 (civilian Starlifter), L-500 (Galaxy)?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

You misunderstand me. Most likely, "Model 330" is *not* connected to CL-330 or GL-330 TDNs.

According to Francillon "Model 330" is specifically the production designation of the XV-4 prototypes.

Favourable review of this proposal (Temporary Design Designation GL-224) led to the award in September 1961 of a $2·5 mn contract for the design . construction and testing of two VZ-10 prototypes (Model 330, serials 62-4503 and 62-4504).'

Lockheed Model numbers were often related to TDN numbers, but this was not mandatory. Model numbers incremented with a prefix which can create overlaps. Authors read "Model xxx" and assume it means "CL-xxxx" or "L-xxx".

The U-2R did not reuse CL-351, it was "Model 351".

 

[Grey Havoc]

L-849 was a reused code; originally it was used for a planned development of the L-749 using R-3350 Turbo-Compound engines. On a side note Bristol Aeroplane Company came very close to license building the L-849 albeit with the Bristol Theseus engine. Unfortunately this was scuppered (as with so much else) by a short sighted Labour government.

 

[Vahe Demirjian]

Not mentioned on the Lockheed designations list is the L-248, a Lockheed proposal for a nuclear-powered bomber with a wingspan of 380 feet, 5 feet short of the Stratolaunch's 385 foot span.

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1954,

so weird,they mentioned that,the Lockheed L-295 was a developed version of T-33 jet trainer ?,what
was that ?;

Lockheed L-295. —- Today we publish the first photo of the two-seater training Lockeed L-295
reaction, performed on the manufacturer’s only initiative from Burbank. This is an improvement
to the T-33, including a cockpit with full equipment. lined, with two seats ejectable, including the
rear post elevated allows better visibility for the instructor. The wing features automatic Jenies
leading edge. The empennages affect a new design and a Parachute brake is used for landing.
Lockheed makes it happen to this plane the tour of the bases USAF and US Instruction Navy, in
an attempt to land a ordered. The L-295 is equipped of an Allison J-35 reactor. The scale. marginal
tanks included, is 12.80 m. :; a length of 9.14 m .. and the height of 5% m.

 

[aim9xray]

Essentially, this was an upgraded T-33. Lockheed was unsuccessful in selling it to the Air Force (who was starting to see the need for a trainer that mirrored - to some extent - the performance characteristics of the Century Series fighters).

Lockheed then turned to the Navy who bought several hundred of a carrier-capable version as the T2V-1 Seastar (later designated as the T-1A and retired from shore duty in the late 60s/early 70s).

 

[hercules130]

This is all very interesting. I am particular interested in finding out the origin and use of L-100 for civil L-382's. To my understanding this designation is only used in Lockheed advertising of the machine. Delta's L-100-20s actually had that designation painted on the aircraft. However an inspection of any civil (purpose built, not a C-130) L-382 that I have ever seen (a sample of about 12 machines) do not use L-100 on the data plate or in their registration, making them in fact L-382 and not L-100 legally. Can anyone explain this?
I assume because Lockheed funded most of its type cert on the J via military testing, combined with the fact that the first two Js were procured as previously funded (FY 94) C-130H-3 explains why Lockheed stuck with 382 for the J, but it is just that, an assumption. Previous to the E model Lockheed changed the model designation with motor or major structural changes, ie: YC-130 L-082, C-130A and D L-182 (although the D and some A-II did have -11 vs -9), C-130B & F L-282, C-130E and derivatives L-382 (B and E share a motor but have major structural and systems differences). However at this point all subsequent models shared the L-382 designation. As previously mentioned in this thread, the addition U and V are used after 382 on Js, but letter designations have historically followed L-X82 in all models and sometimes refer to very minor changes- I have not managed to break the code on these either. For example the USAF C-130H-1 were all ordered in FY 74 but carry 3 different designations after the model number, my thought here is they represent blocks as they do not correspond with year of manufacture (74-78). As far as system or structural differences are concerned the USAF fleet of C-130H-1 probably came the nearest to being a "pure" fleet as any other C-130 variant (outside of specialized mission birds converted from the same group/block of airplanes for example the AC-130H/U fleet). Would love to read any information on the L-100 moniker or further explanation of the C-130H and J being the L-382 vs 482 and 582. Thanks, G

 

[acegeek9992]

CL-204 single seat fighter developed from
Northamerican F-93

Isnt it L-204? Final development of P-80/F-94... Three view is in appendix B in Lockheed Skunk Works book by Jay Miller.

Three-view drawing of the L-204, anyone?

 

[acegeek9992]

L-204—By the time F-94C contractor trials had been completed and the flight test program was assimilated by the Air Force, the Skunk Works, as it existed at that time, had become involved in a totally different aircraft program. Concurrently, Hall Hibbard and "Kelly" Johnson had elected to carry the basic F-94—and by default, the original P-80 configuration - to its ultimate level of development. The resulting L-204 variants, though stillborn, are worthy of mention. These studies, initiated during July of 1950, and assigned temporary design designations from L-204-1 to L-204-3, were conducted by Willis Hawkins with the intent of improving the aircraft's performance (specifically top speed and range). The resulting designs were all single-seat configurations with the normal back seat position replaced with a 143.5 gallon (543l) saddle tank. All three configurations were equipped only with air-to-air rocket armament, an E-5 fire control system, and Pratt & Whitney's 8,750 Ib. thrust J48-P-5 engine. The L-204-2 was to be equipped with a new 6% thickness/chord ratio wing similar in planform to its predecessors, while the L-204-3 was to have a 6% thickness/chord ratio wing with a low-aspect ratio and high taper ratio. Even more interesting was the L-204-1 which was to be equipped with a variable-geometry wing having a 0°- to 55° sweep capability. At each pivot point the sweep angle was to be controlled by a hydraulically-operated screw drive. Two horizontal tail configurations were proposed. In one, the single-piece horizontal tail was to be mounted at the extreme end of the empennage above the exhaust; in the other, the horizontal tail was to be rigidly attached to the vertical tail, which in turn was hinged and hydraulically moved around a hinge point—thus changing the horizontal tail incidence.

Principle characteristics and calculated performance were as follows:
Model L-204-1 L-204-1 L-204-1 L-204-2 L-204-3
Wing Sweep 0° 35° 55° n.a. n.a.
Length (feet/inches) n.a. n.a. n.a. 42,70 42,50
Span (feet/inches) // (mtcm 37,60 30,90 25,30 37,30 31,00
Wing area (square feet) 233,00 254,00 271,00 392,00 275,00
Zero fuel weight (pounds) 14.573,00 n.a. n.a. 13.316,00 12.305,00
Combat weight (pounds) 18.330,00 18.380,00 18.750,00 18.390,00 16.190,00
Max. Takeoff weight (pounds) 22.186,00 n.a. n.a. 24.098,00 20.345,00
Internal fuel (gallons) 665,00 665,00 665,00 812,00 730,00
External fuel (gallons) 460,00 n.a. n.a. 750,00 460,00
Vmax at sea level (mph) 654,00 739,00 765,00 704,00 706,00
Combat climb rate (feet/minute) 3.500,00 3.800,00 6.200,00 4.100,00 4.150,00
Combat ceiling (feet) 50.000,00 48.800,00 44.500,00 49.500,00 49.000,00
Combat radius (miles) 575,00 560,00 455,00 760,00 540,00

Source: Books about Lockheed Martin an their aircraft from Jay Miller & R. J. Francillon

nvm, looks like you have the drawings for the L-204, However, where's the three-view for the L-204-3?

 

[Antonio]

MODERATOR NOTE:

Posts 113 to 115 could be replaced for a single one. All that citations are unnecessary. Please avoid clutter.

Thanks

 

[hesham]

Hi,


does anyone hear about Lockheed CL-1147 STOL transport aircraft project ?.

The source,

Civil Aeronautics Board Reports

www.google.com.eg

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Yep

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

19 CL-1147 configurations documented. Several of these are Electra variations, others clean-sheet STOL designs. Only drawing I have is -15 which is a STOL Electra version.

 

[hesham]

19 CL-1147 configurations documented. Several of these are Electra variations, others clean-sheet STOL designs. Only drawing I have is -15 which is a STOL Electra version.

That's right my dear PaulMM,but may this project was the answer ?,who knows !.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/lockheed-ata-transport.1253/

 

[Dynoman]

I came across a document regarding a prototyping study that identified an unsolicited "Quiet Aircraft" proposal from Lockheed-California in 1972-73. The effort would have included wind tunnel tests, engine acoustic tests, aircraft wing and inlet fabrication and flight test of two T-1A aircraft with a modified wing and engine inlets to reduce the aircraft's 'aero-acoustics.' The concept involved modifying two aircraft and have them ready for flight test 22 months later. Contract award would have been December 1971 according to the document. The design would have included TF-34 engines (the proposed concept requested the AF provide the two aircraft and four TF-34s). I assume that the request was for two Lockheed Sea Star T-1A's and not the Beechjet T-1A that came along in the early 1990s. Any idea how far this proposal may have gotten and if there was a designation attached to it?