Light, fixed-wing anti-tank/ground attack aircraft projects

[Retrofit]

Stargazer2006- However, I find it looks more like a racer than a combat aircraft, really...

You took the words right out of my mouth!!

Agreed! Yet the text says "They were developed under the Project Little Brother by USAF" which leaves no doubt as to the intended purpose of that machine at the start.

Some more information from "Sport Aviation" EAA magazine, dated July 1976, by Dave Kahn & Eliot Schear.

 

[walter]

The Schapel design is new to me, the RTAF (Royal Thai Air Force) design is fairly well documented and entered production. At least one survives in the Thai air force museum.

I always though there were only a flying prototype (the one in the museum) and a static airframe of the RTAF-5 built.

 

[cluttonfred]

I always though there were only a flying prototype (the one in the museum) and a static airframe of the RTAF-5 built.

You're right, my mistake.

 

[cthippo]

The early designs of the S.1100 used Turboméca Bastan turboprop engines,
maybe somewhat reducing weight (and so better fitting to your rules !), but also
more expensive and regarded as more vulnerable, so the P & W R1340 were
adopted again. The initial design even looked much more elegant.
For me the MS.1500 is of special interest. Jean Cuny mentions a twin engined
version designated MS.1520, which seemes to have been "minimal change" variant
to the MS.1500, incorporating a retractable landing gear and two wing mounted
engines. No other sources or drawings, so my sketch is source grade 1 only.

The 1100 looks a lot like the FMA Pucara built in Argentina.

Just goes to show that the laws of physics are pretty much the same everywhere.

 

[huey21ar]

The early designs of the S.1100 used Turboméca Bastan turboprop engines,
maybe somewhat reducing weight (and so better fitting to your rules !), but also
more expensive and regarded as more vulnerable, so the P & W R1340 were
adopted again. The initial design even looked much more elegant.
For me the MS.1500 is of special interest. Jean Cuny mentions a twin engined
version designated MS.1520, which seemes to have been "minimal change" variant
to the MS.1500, incorporating a retractable landing gear and two wing mounted
engines. No other sources or drawings, so my sketch is source grade 1 only.

The 1100 looks a lot like the FMA Pucara built in Argentina.

Just goes to show that the laws of physics are pretty much the same everywhere.

Hello! my name is Hernan, I'm from Argentina, and although long since I read the forum, is the first time I decided to write. First of all, I would like to apologize for my bad English (I'm using a translator).
Dear cthippo, I think personally, that the similarities between the designs of Morane Saulnier and FMA IA-58 "Pucara" are not accidental. Even earlier designs of the FMA for a single-engine COIN aircraft (FMA IA-55) looked much the Morane-Saulnier MS 1500 Epervier. Which leads me to think that Morane Saulnier participated in the design of IA-58. Do not forget that the ties between Argentina and French aircraft industry during that time, were very strong, and that Argentina was built under license the MS-760 "Paris. "

FMA IA-55

Greetings!

 

[Jemiba]

Welcome Huey,

as I'm especially interested in aircraft from Morane Saulnier, your clue is very interesting
for me. The IA 55 has much in common with the MS.1500, at least externally and your
arguments can well be correct. Do you know any sources stating a participation ? Would be
very interesting for me indeed.

 

[huey21ar]

Jemiba, thanks for the welcome!

To be honest, I'm speculating.
No information (public or official) is received indicating some form of French assistance in the design of the Argentine aircraft of that time. But there are signs that tell me that this could have happened.

1 - The similarity in design (MS-1500 with the IA-55 and the theoretical MS-1520 with the IA-58)
2 - The strong ties between Argentina and France in aeronautics, which is embodied in the acquisition of aeronautical materials and manufacturing under license in Argentina of French machines, the evaluation of FMA models in the french CEV (IA-50 G-II and the IA-58) and the recurring use of French engines (Astazou and Bastan) for powering the FMA models
3-The relationship established between FMA and Morane Saulnier at that time due to manufacture under license of MS-760 Paris, after enhanced to the Paris II standard.

Unfortunately, if the assistance of Morane Saulnier existed, that there would be very difficult way to prove it with hard data, due to poor access to information at the time, information that just in these years began to be published. In addition, there is the matter of pride and prestige (silly in my opinion), which would make difficult any acceptance of it was received outside assistance in designing the "icon" of the national aviation.

FMA IA-58 prototype

Best regards

Hernan

 

[Retrofit]

Some information from the book "Fabrica Militar de Aviones: Cronicas y testimonios" by Angel Cesar Arreguez (2008)

The IA-51 was the COIN aircraft project
The IA-55 was a training/ground attack aircraft project
also 3Vs of the twin jet and single seat versions of the IA-58

 

[Stargazer]

Very interesting thread. Welcome, huey21ar! I'll be watching this thread with great expectancy in the hope that the Morane lineage can one day be documented.

 

[Jemiba]

"..in the hope that the Morane lineage can one day be documented."

Indeed, especially the similarities of the IA-51 to the MS.1500 are striking,
as it still has a straight wing and a fixed landing gear. As a precursor to the
IA-55 even the gull wing in the later version would make sense, as a measure
to shorten the landing gear legs.

 

[huey21ar]

Hi everyone!
I could read the book mentioned by Retrofit, but I find very little technical and holder of a political tone, in addition to contain inaccurate data. For example, it mentions the IA-55 as a basic-advanced training aircraft, at the time when Air Force Argentina, was already using in those roles the duo T-34A/B-45 Mentor and MS-760 Paris , and an aircraft employing conventional undercarriage were no longer considered suitable for training new pilots by the air force.
The IA-55 was designed based on the same lines on which design to its predecessor in the drawing boards, the IA-51 and finally culminated in the IA-58 Pucara, a plane whose main function would be COIN operations .

Anyway, for those who wish, there is an excerpt from the book on line: Cronicas y Testimonios - Fabrica Militar de Aviones (1927-1993)

Returning to the Pucara and development, it is noted that there were two design groups within the FMA dedicated to design the future COIN aircraft, one with a theoretical design and capabilities similar to the OV-10 Bronco and the other with the design culminated in the Pucara. Personally I believe that the design similar to the Bronco had been more flexible than the design of "French approach" of the Pucara.
As a note of color, the only MS -1500 built served as test bed for the engine of Pucara, the Turbomeca Astazou XVIG.

Greetings!

 

[huey21ar]

Here is another design by FMA from the 60s with "french lines", the IA-53 "Mamboreta" (which means praying mantis), but in this case is a plane for agricultural uses. I understand that agricultural aircraft are off topic, but I wanted to illustrate my assumptions that Morane Saulnier could influence or contribute to the FMA designs of those years.

 

[Stargazer]

Here is another design by FMA from the 60s with "french lines", the IA-53 "Mamboreta" (which means praying mantis), but in this case is a plane for agricultural uses. I understand that agricultural aircraft are off topic, but I wanted to illustrate my assumptions that Morane Saulnier could influence or contribute to the FMA designs of those years.

Not SO off-topic, considering the fact that ag-types often make a good basis for COIN aircraft. Think of the AT-802, the G-164, the Predator 120 and many others, that have spawned light-attack derivatives either on paper or in real-life.

 

[brontolino]

Dear Stargazer
I don't know the existence of the COIN versions/projects from agricoltural aircraft that have you mentioned. Can you give more informatiom about these aircraft or project? (except for AT-802U). Thank you

 

[AeroFranz]

Google "Ayres Thrush Vigilante" or "Narcotics Eradication Delivery Stystem "

 

[Stargazer]

My bad. It should read "Predator 480", not 120 (it was Scaled Composites' Model 120, hence the confusion).

Allow me to point you to my own website on the subject:

Rutan Models 58 and 59 Predator (wind tunnel models only):
http://stargazer2006.online.fr/aircraft/predator1.htm
(more pictures can be found here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11049.0)

Scaled Composites Model 120 Predator (a.k.a. Advanced Technology Predator 480)
http://stargazer2006.online.fr/aircraft/predator2.htm

It appears from various sources that the Model 120 would have been liable for light attack conversion if successful, hence the name Predator which of course didn't sound very agricultural...

 

[cluttonfred]

I just realized that the Martin Mighty Midget discussed in another thread also fits this thread perfectly. Taking elements of the Martin design, the Potez 75 and the original L2VMA which led to LARA and the OV-10 Bronco, keeping the best features from each, could produce a very handy aircraft for present day COIN/CAS needs.

 

[cluttonfred]

1000aircraftphotos.com has just added some nice pics of the piston-engined Sud-Est S.E.116 Voltigeur and the turboprop Sud-Est S.E.117 Turbo-Voltigeur from Nico Braas.

There's the North American T-28 Trojan and the Sud-Aviation SE 117 Voltigeur (prototype only), although both of these exceed the 8.800 lbs limit.

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the MFI-18 was developed from MFI-17 as a COIN and close support aircraft;

variant with a stretched wing made of composite materials, the MFI-18, was tested during the 1980s in Sweden. Also fitted with provision for skis, this version never went into production. The supporter was also used as a highly efficient COIN aircraft, Experience with the earlier MFI 9B Minicom during the Biafran Civil war encouraged Saab to develop the Supporter as a close support aircraft carrying an assortment of underwing stores including rockets and gun pods

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Safari

 

[riggerrob]

There was a prototype of the Beech Bonanza with a couple of racks under its wings. I also think I've heard of Piper doing something similar with their Cherokee Six. Could the Cessna O-1 & O-2 carry anything besides smoke rockets? Some T-34s were equipped with underwing racks. How about the Fairchild / Pilatus AU-23?

......................................................

This concept dates back to WW2 when an overly-aggressive US Army pilot hung bazooka tubes under the wings of his Piper L-4 Grasshopper. The Grasshopper struggled to take-off with all the extra weight!

Cessna 0-1 and O-2 were CAPABLE of carrying much more than smoke rockets, but too many overly-aggressive young pilots took too many risks, forcing generals to withdraw all but smoke rockets. During the Viet Nam War, generals decided that Bird Dogs could do far more damage by calling in fast air, artillery and even naval gun fire. Read "100 Feet Over Hell" by Jim Hooper or "Ravens" by Robin what's-his-name.

Fairchild-Hiller advertising depicts HU-23 Turbo-Porters (built under license from Pilatus) with a variety of bombs and rockets hanging under the wings along with a Gatling gun aimed out the cargo door. I doubt if Portrrs ever fired a shot in anger.

The first batch of SM-92 Finists were sold to Russian Border Patrol with similar weapons hanging under the wings and protruding from the cargo door.

Most recently, Cessna has sold batches of 208 Caravans to a variety of third-world air forces. Cessna advertising literature offers Caravans with a wide variety of sensors, rockets along with a Gatling gun aimed out the cargo door. I suspect that Caravans are primarily used for the same roles as drones: lofting sensors and dropping (100 pound) Hellfire missiles. He'll fires were originally developed as anti-tank rockets to be fired from AH-64 Apache helicopters, but over the last decade, most Hellifres have been fired at Al Queda (and affiliates) pedestrians, buildings or soft-skinned vehicles. Hellfire's' greatest advantage is its accuracy, which reduces collateral casualties.
Third-world air forces get Caravans because first-world nations are not willing to sell the latest generation of un-manned drones.

By the same logic, the USAF, US Army and CIA fly a variety of Beechcraft King Airs, PC-12, business jets, etc. festooned with the latest electronic sensors, fake (AM top 40) radio transmitters, spoof cell phone towers, etc. to interfere with mujaheddin communications. Those jobs could also be done by drones, but I suspect that drone manufacturers are not able to make drone airframes fast enough.

 

[yasotay]

Very good concise point.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Britten-Norman's Counter Insurgency Islander (also known as COIN Defender). H/t Harrier.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I found this SAAB-213 Project,and it looks like an attack aircraft,I don't know
if it was real design or what,please help ?.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4e/1f/68/4e1f687167d87a671c8596783a3c31d0.jpg

 

[lastdingo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL-230_Skorpion

 

[dan_inbox]

I found this SAAB-213 Project,and it looks like an attack aircraft,I don't know
if it was real design or what,please help ?.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4e/1f/68/4e1f687167d87a671c8596783a3c31d0.jpg

Erik Gustaf Bratt was head of the design department for aircraft and ln 1974 director of SAAB.

The twin-boom pusher configuration is generally similar to the SAAB-21 (A-21 & J-21). Could it be one of the variants explored?

 

[Arjen]

SAAB 21 was a 40s design, this looks more like something from the late 50s or early 60s. 213 designation comes after the 210 Lilldraken - first flight in 1952.
This 213 appears to be much smaller than the 21.

 

[Pioneer]

I know and appreciate that this isn't Post-WWII:

"The crazy story of "The Mad Major", his bazooka-armed Grasshopper spotter plane "Rosie the Rocketer", and his missions to destroy German tanks in France in 1944."

View: https://youtu.be/AyhkTbA6p4Q


I'm wondering if the likes of RPG-7 or Carl Gustav could substitute the Bazooka's on a modern light STOL battlefield observation/liaison plane - like the Pilatus Porter PC-6 for example.......?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dears for explanation.

 

[Motocar]

Good for speculative cutaway drawing...!

 

[Grey Havoc]

Akaer Mosquito COIN/Light Attack aircraft:

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2019/04/if-we-wont-re-open-bronco-line.html#disqus_thread
https://www.janes.com/article/87662/laad-2019-akaer-presents-conceptual-mosquito-multi-role-aircraft

 

[Pioneer]

Akaer Mosquito COIN/Light Attack aircraft:

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2019/04/if-we-wont-re-open-bronco-line.html#disqus_thread
https://www.janes.com/article/87662/laad-2019-akaer-presents-conceptual-mosquito-multi-role-aircraft

Nice seemingly compact design, with some OV-10 influence. Although seems unusual, in that it appears to be armed to the hilt with short-range AAM's


Regards
Pioneer

 

[hesham]

Akaer Mosquito COIN/Light Attack aircraft:

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2019/04/if-we-wont-re-open-bronco-line.html#disqus_thread
https://www.janes.com/article/87662/laad-2019-akaer-presents-conceptual-mosquito-multi-role-aircraft

Nice find dear Grey.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Thanks.

 

[TomS]

Akaer Mosquito COIN/Light Attack aircraft:

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2019/04/if-we-wont-re-open-bronco-line.html#disqus_thread
https://www.janes.com/article/87662/laad-2019-akaer-presents-conceptual-mosquito-multi-role-aircraft

Nice seemingly compact design, with some OV-10 influence. Although seems unusual, in that it appears to be armed to the hilt with short-range AAM's


Regards
Pioneer

Probably configured as a "sovereignty protection" aircraft, a bit like how the the current Brazilian Air Force ALX (Super Tucano) has the option of AAMs to shoot down drug smuggling aircraft. Not sure they've actually done much of that, but it's a capability the FAB asked for.

 

[Pioneer]

Akaer Mosquito COIN/Light Attack aircraft:

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2019/04/if-we-wont-re-open-bronco-line.html#disqus_thread
https://www.janes.com/article/87662/laad-2019-akaer-presents-conceptual-mosquito-multi-role-aircraft

Nice seemingly compact design, with some OV-10 influence. Although seems unusual, in that it appears to be armed to the hilt with short-range AAM's


Regards
Pioneer

Probably configured as a "sovereignty protection" aircraft, a bit like how the the current Brazilian Air Force ALX (Super Tucano) has the option of AAMs to shoot down drug smuggling aircraft. Not sure they've actually done much of that, but it's a capability the FAB asked for.

Thank's TomS, you're probably correct in your analogy, which is interesting, for realistically, IMO in reality most Air Forces could probably do their air defence with such low cost, low performance aircraft equipped with a decent AAM, cannon, radar and data linked to a cost effective AEW platform, without the need of expensive and complicated 'state-of-the-art' air superiority fighters.........

Regards
Pioneer

 

[_Del_]

Nice seemingly compact design, with some OV-10 influence. Although seems unusual, in that it appears to be armed to the hilt with short-range AAM's

Might make a right mess of opposing rotary-wing assets, along with the aforementioned "air sovereignty" mission .

 

[sienar]

Apparently there was a second attempt at turning the cosmic wind into a coin aircraft.

 

[F.L.]

And the Cessna 337 Lynx !

 

[topspeed3]

I read somewhere that Ukraine AF is trying to shoot down drones with YAK-52s.

Anything better available for them ?

COIN aircraft like Ju-87 Stuka ?