Life on Venus?

FighterJock said:
Flyaway said:
More doubts as regards the phosphine detection.

[2010.15188] The statistical reliability of 267 GHz JCMT observations of Venus: No significant evidence for phosphine absorption

arxiv.org
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Just stopped reading the latest issue of New Scientist and they have an interesting article about Venus and the whole Phosphine saga. And it looks like the initial data was wrong, there is no Phosphine in Venus's atmosphere after all. Looks like the scientists who made the initial discovery got too excited over the initial data results.
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The paper NS are referring to the authors of it I believe had issue an official apology due to the language used in the paper.
 
This whole saga reminds me of the famous incident involving the Jodrell Bank Radio telescope and the supposed discovery of Little Green Men but when the astronomers looked over the data again they had discovered the pulsar in Messier 1 (otherwise known as the Crab Nebula), the moral of the story should be don't get too excited over initial results.
 
This was an interesting post on NSF:

The problem seems to be that in both cases a similar, unusual fitting method was used to remove instrumental effects. That appears to have caused spurious lines to appear in the spectra.
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This article covers all these follow up papers on the possible phosphine detection in the Venusian atmosphere.

There are all kinds of reasons for data discrepancies on phosphine depending on its possible distribution in Venus’ atmosphere, so until we get further information, we’re left to speculate. But let’s welcome Venus back into the spotlight. I’m glad to see the re-emergence of public interest, and the fortunes of Venus in terms of future mission desirability are obviously on the rise, something the Venus science community must welcome as parched desert-crossers welcome an unexpected flowing spring.
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Back into the Clouds of Venus | Centauri Dreams

www.centauri-dreams.org
 
Another good article on this.

www.technologyreview.com

Not finding life on Venus would be disappointing. But it’s good science at work.

Doubts about the existence of phosphine gas on Venus—a possible sign of biology—are part of the normal course of testing an extraordinary finding.
www.technologyreview.com www.technologyreview.com

And another.

physicsworld.com

Controversy erupts among astronomers over whether phosphine really was discovered on Venus – Physics World

The tone of some of the criticism over the discovery sparks outrage in the community
physicsworld.com
 
Oh boy, this is turning as bad as the Viking life-seeking experiments results back in 1977. The Levine vs Horowitz-Oyama vs Biemann clusterfuck.

Life on Mars ?

Levine experiment "YES"

Oyama experiment "NO"
Horowitz experiment "NO"

Biemann "Screw you three and screw life - where are organics in the first place ? I don't really care about life or not, as long as my experiment don't find organics, this is far more disturbing."

Horowitz "well, no organics, then this settles the question of life, at least. No organics = no life, thus... Oyama and mine experiments are correct, Levine is wrong."

Levine "I disagree in 1977; and by 2020, the last survivor, i still disagree."

Biemann "Stop that you three. Don't link me to your life mess. I went with Viking to Mars to look for organics. And I still can't explain why my experiement didn't found them !"

A complete mess. The two, once separate questions of LIFE and ORGANICS become completely embroiled, the controversy over the former (LIFE) spreading over the later.

End result: no more Mars exploration for twenty years, 1977-1997...
 
There is a computer related saying that is related to the whole Venus phosphine saga, Garbage In Garbage Out. The scientists need to be extra careful to study the data before they make an announcement and make sure that the data is correct before they go and publish the results.
 
Here’s the preprint:

Re-analysis of Phosphine in Venus' Clouds

We first respond to two points raised by Villanueva et al. We show the JCMT discovery spectrum of PH3 can not be re-attributed to SO2, as the line width is larger than observed for SO2 features, and the required abundance would be an extreme outlier. The JCMT spectrum is also consistent with our simple model, constant PH3-abundance with altitude, with no discrepancy in line profile (within data limits); reconciliation with a full photochemical model is the subject of future work. Section 2 presents initial results from re-processed ALMA data. Villanueva et al. noted an issue with bandpass calibration. They have worked on a partially re-processed subset of the ALMA data, so we note where their conclusions, and those of Greaves et al., are now superseded. To summarise: we tentatively recover PH3 in Venus' atmosphere with ALMA (~5{\sigma} confidence). Localised abundance appears to peak at ~5 parts-per-billion, with suggestions of spatial variation. Advanced data-products suggest a planet-averaged PH3 abundance ~1 ppb, ~7 times lower than from the earlier ALMA processing. The ALMA data are reconcilable with the JCMT detection (~20 ppb) if there is order-of-magnitude temporal variation; more advanced processing of the JCMT data is underway to check methods. Independent PH3 measurements suggest possible altitude dependence (under ~5 ppb at 60+ km, up to ~100 ppb at 50+ km; see Section 2: Conclusions.) Given that both ALMA and JCMT were working at the limit of observatory capabilities, new spectra should be obtained. The ALMA data in-hand are no longer limited by calibration, but spectral ripples still exist, probably due to size and brightness of Venus in relation to the primary beam. Further, spatial ripples are present, potentially reducing significance of real narrow spectral features.

[2011.08176] Re-analysis of Phosphine in Venus' Clouds

arxiv.org
 
Flyaway said:
Here’s the preprint:

Re-analysis of Phosphine in Venus' Clouds

We first respond to two points raised by Villanueva et al. We show the JCMT discovery spectrum of PH3 can not be re-attributed to SO2, as the line width is larger than observed for SO2 features, and the required abundance would be an extreme outlier. The JCMT spectrum is also consistent with our simple model, constant PH3-abundance with altitude, with no discrepancy in line profile (within data limits); reconciliation with a full photochemical model is the subject of future work. Section 2 presents initial results from re-processed ALMA data. Villanueva et al. noted an issue with bandpass calibration. They have worked on a partially re-processed subset of the ALMA data, so we note where their conclusions, and those of Greaves et al., are now superseded. To summarise: we tentatively recover PH3 in Venus' atmosphere with ALMA (~5{\sigma} confidence). Localised abundance appears to peak at ~5 parts-per-billion, with suggestions of spatial variation. Advanced data-products suggest a planet-averaged PH3 abundance ~1 ppb, ~7 times lower than from the earlier ALMA processing. The ALMA data are reconcilable with the JCMT detection (~20 ppb) if there is order-of-magnitude temporal variation; more advanced processing of the JCMT data is underway to check methods. Independent PH3 measurements suggest possible altitude dependence (under ~5 ppb at 60+ km, up to ~100 ppb at 50+ km; see Section 2: Conclusions.) Given that both ALMA and JCMT were working at the limit of observatory capabilities, new spectra should be obtained. The ALMA data in-hand are no longer limited by calibration, but spectral ripples still exist, probably due to size and brightness of Venus in relation to the primary beam. Further, spatial ripples are present, potentially reducing significance of real narrow spectral features.

[2011.08176] Re-analysis of Phosphine in Venus' Clouds

arxiv.org
Click to expand...

That is good news that they are continuing observations on Venus regarding the possibility of Phosphine in the atmosphere and the possibility of life as well. I hope that the astronomers do not rush to announce the results of the re-observations and take their time to analyse the new data.
 
Cool Worlds talks with Professor Jane Greaves:

View: https://youtu.be/2GMW7GZAUfQ

She certainly gives a robust defence of her original paper and is rather scathing about the other papers and how those teams acted.
 
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Paper is fully peer reviewed. This data is kind of its own thing as it’s the only in situ data in this whole debate.

Venus’ Mass Spectra Show Signs of Disequilibria in the Middle Clouds

Abstract
We present a reexamination of mass spectral data obtained from the Pioneer Venus Large Probe Neutral Mass Spectrometer. Our interpretations of differing trace chemical species are suggestive of redox disequilibria in Venus’ middle clouds. Assignments to the data (at 51.3 km) include phosphine, hydrogen sulfide, nitrous acid, nitric acid, carbon monoxide, hydrochloric acid, hydrogen cyanide, ethane, and potentially ammonia, chlorous acid, and several tentative PxOyspecies. All parent ions were predicated upon assignment of corresponding fragmentation products, isotopologues, and atomic species. The data reveal parent ions at varying oxidation states, implying the presence of reducing power in the clouds, and illuminating the potential for chemistries yet to be discovered. When considering the hypothetical habitability of Venus’ clouds, the assignments reveal a potential signature of anaerobic phosphorus metabolism (phosphine), an electron donor for anoxygenic photosynthesis (nitrite), and major constituents of the nitrogen cycle (nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, and N2).
Plain Language Summary
We reexamined archived data obtained by the Pioneer Venus Large Probe Neutral Mass Spectrometer. Our results reveal the presence of several minor chemical species in Venus’ clouds including phosphine, hydrogen sulfide, nitrous acid (nitrite), nitric acid (nitrate), hydrogen cyanide, and possibly ammonia. The presence of these chemicals suggest that Venus’ clouds are not at equilibrium; thereby, illuminating the potential for chemistries yet to be discovered. Further, when considering the potential habitability of Venus’ clouds, our work reveals a potential signature of anaerobic phosphorus metabolism (phosphine), along with key chemical contributors towards anoxygenic photosynthesis (nitrite) and the terrestrial nitrogen cycle (nitrate, nitrite, possibly ammonia, and N2).

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www.planetary.org

NASA Mission to Venus in 1978 May Have Detected Phosphine, a Gas…

The data come from NASA’s Pioneer Venus Multiprobe mission, which deployed a series of probes into the planet’s clouds.
www.planetary.org www.planetary.org
 
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The phosphine detection in the Venusian atmosphere has been re-confirmed using a different instrument on the same telescope.

Not included in the paper were a second round of JCMT observations from summer 2020 that have now been processed. Greaves reports that not only did JCMT see phosphine again, it did so using a different science instrument on the telescope. That means phosphine has been seen at three different points in time using three different telescope instruments at two different observatories.

What comes next? Greaves’ colleagues have been awarded 200 hours of JCMT time to observe Venus in 2022 and 2023, which will allow them to gather even more data.
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Also a tentative detection from SOFIA as well.

Another new potential detection of phosphine comes from NASA’s flying SOFIA telescope.

SOFIA, which is scheduled to be shut down due to budget cuts on Sept. 30, searched for phosphine on Venus late last year. Greaves processed publicly available data from the flight and made a potential discovery of phosphine at 3 parts per billion, at an altitude of 65 kilometers (40 miles) or higher. This includes Venus’ highest-most clouds.

“I’d say there’s a hint of a detection there,” she said. “But it’s really tentative.”
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NASA's DAVINCI, launching as early as 2028, will explore Venus' atmosphere. Greaves told The Planetary Society that “we’re about to make the case to the DAVINCI team” that the spacecraft should have the capability to search for phosphine.
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www.planetary.org

Life on Venus? New updates on the search

Astronomer Jane Greaves presents new findings that could support of phosphine in the clouds of Venus.
www.planetary.org www.planetary.org
 
Flyaway said:
The phosphine detection in the Venusian atmosphere has been re-confirmed using a different instrument on the same telescope.

Not included in the paper were a second round of JCMT observations from summer 2020 that have now been processed. Greaves reports that not only did JCMT see phosphine again, it did so using a different science instrument on the telescope. That means phosphine has been seen at three different points in time using three different telescope instruments at two different observatories.

What comes next? Greaves’ colleagues have been awarded 200 hours of JCMT time to observe Venus in 2022 and 2023, which will allow them to gather even more data.
Click to expand...

Also a tentative detection from SOFIA as well.

Another new potential detection of phosphine comes from NASA’s flying SOFIA telescope.

SOFIA, which is scheduled to be shut down due to budget cuts on Sept. 30, searched for phosphine on Venus late last year. Greaves processed publicly available data from the flight and made a potential discovery of phosphine at 3 parts per billion, at an altitude of 65 kilometers (40 miles) or higher. This includes Venus’ highest-most clouds.

“I’d say there’s a hint of a detection there,” she said. “But it’s really tentative.”
Click to expand...

NASA's DAVINCI, launching as early as 2028, will explore Venus' atmosphere. Greaves told The Planetary Society that “we’re about to make the case to the DAVINCI team” that the spacecraft should have the capability to search for phosphine.
Click to expand...

www.planetary.org

Life on Venus? New updates on the search

Astronomer Jane Greaves presents new findings that could support of phosphine in the clouds of Venus.
www.planetary.org www.planetary.org
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So SOFIA has detected phosphine in Venus’s atmosphere too, now that is an interesting development, I am looking forward to DAVINCI‘s launch in 2028 and that should finally confirm whether or not there is phosphine present.
 
Atmospheric plankton? Surely nothing could survive on the surface itself.
 
siegecrossbow said:
Atmospheric plankton? Surely nothing could survive on the surface itself.
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Or bacteria of some kind. But yes, high level atmospheric life of some kind living where the pressure and heat are fairly close to earth's. I suspect there is some other process going on; there is so little water I have a hard time believing any life could be occurring. But it's definitely worth a look either way.
 
Josh_TN said:
siegecrossbow said:
Atmospheric plankton? Surely nothing could survive on the surface itself.
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Or bacteria of some kind. But yes, high level atmospheric life of some kind living where the pressure and heat are fairly close to earth's. I suspect there is some other process going on; there is so little water I have a hard time believing any life could be occurring. But it's definitely worth a look either way.
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There are Earth based extremophiles capable of surviving in highly acidic environment. However I think the surface temperature and pressure may prove to be too much. The hydro-sulfuric clouds, however, may prove more hospitable than we think.
 
There are anaerobic lifeforms that survive high acidities but I think it is the almost complete absence of water that makes me question life as a source of the phosphine signals. But if phosphine truly ends up being present then I'm sure there's some interesting chemistry taking place all the same.
 
siegecrossbow said:
Josh_TN said:
siegecrossbow said:
Atmospheric plankton? Surely nothing could survive on the surface itself.
Click to expand...
Or bacteria of some kind. But yes, high level atmospheric life of some kind living where the pressure and heat are fairly close to earth's. I suspect there is some other process going on; there is so little water I have a hard time believing any life could be occurring. But it's definitely worth a look either way.
Click to expand...

There are Earth based extremophiles capable of surviving in highly acidic environment. However I think the surface temperature and pressure may prove to be too much. The hydro-sulfuric clouds, however, may prove more hospitable than we think.
Click to expand...

The cloud layer 50 km high is one of the most Earth-like environments in the inner solar system. The surface of course is complete hell hole.
 
Archibald said:
siegecrossbow said:
Josh_TN said:
siegecrossbow said:
Atmospheric plankton? Surely nothing could survive on the surface itself.
Click to expand...
Or bacteria of some kind. But yes, high level atmospheric life of some kind living where the pressure and heat are fairly close to earth's. I suspect there is some other process going on; there is so little water I have a hard time believing any life could be occurring. But it's definitely worth a look either way.
Click to expand...

There are Earth based extremophiles capable of surviving in highly acidic environment. However I think the surface temperature and pressure may prove to be too much. The hydro-sulfuric clouds, however, may prove more hospitable than we think.
Click to expand...

The cloud layer 50 km high is one of the most Earth-like environments in the inner solar system. The surface of course is complete hell hole.
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Right. But the clouds don’t consist of water vapor but instead sulfuric acid. However I don’t think that precludes live from existing.
 
The biggest problem is we still know so little about Venus in general. Unfortunately up until recently it has mostly been ignored for decades except for the odd mission here and there. I think the last landing on the planet was in the early eighties, now compare that to Mars.
 
Veneras before Comet Halley - so 1982 or 83, as old as my old self.
 
Flyaway said:
The biggest problem is we still know so little about Venus in general. Unfortunately up until recently it has mostly been ignored for decades except for the odd mission here and there. I think the last landing on the planet was in the early eighties, now compare that to Mars.
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Landing on the surface is pretty pointless. You can only send back data for a couple of minutes before your lander gets obliterated by heat and pressure. Future missions should use planes or balloons. With SAR they can probably obtain more data about Venusian features than any lander.
 
siegecrossbow said:
Flyaway said:
The biggest problem is we still know so little about Venus in general. Unfortunately up until recently it has mostly been ignored for decades except for the odd mission here and there. I think the last landing on the planet was in the early eighties, now compare that to Mars.
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Landing on the surface is pretty pointless. You can only send back data for a couple of minutes before your lander gets obliterated by heat and pressure. Future missions should use planes or balloons. With SAR they can probably obtain more data about Venusian features than any lander.
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I think there’s still something to be said for in situ surface level data.
 
New observations have again detected phosphine in the atmosphere of Venus.

More traces of a gas thought to be a sign of life have been found in the clouds and haze layers of Venus.
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They come primarily from the first 50 of 200 hours of observations using the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope (JCMT) in Hawaii—far more than the eight hours used for the original detection—but also involve new data from NASA’s now defunct Stratospheric Observatory for Infrared Astronomy (SOFIA) airplane.
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This is the key part.

JCMT’s latest detections of phosphine from February 2022 and May 2023 are significant because they hugely extend the scope of the initial study. They also suggest that there’s a steady source of phosphine either in or below the clouds of Venus.


“We now have five detections over the last few years, from three different sets of instruments, and from many methods of processing the data,” said Professor Jane Greaves, an astrobiologist at the School of Physics and Astronomy at Cardiff University whose team has been conducting tests as part of a 200-hour legacy survey using JCMT. “We’re getting a clue here that there is some steady source, which is the point of legacy surveys—to show whether that’s true or not,” said Greaves.
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However, it’s DAVINCI+ (Deep Atmosphere Venus Investigation of Noble gases, Chemistry, and Imaging Plus) that could provide a phosphine detection in-situ. Scheduled to arrive in 2031, during a fatal 63-minute descent it will sample the Venusian atmosphere half a dozen times and fire lasers through it and measure the gases.

“They have four of these laser wavelengths to allocate and only three are decided,” said Greaves. “We made our case for phosphine and we’re just waiting for hear back.”
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www.forbes.com

Phosphine Confirmed Deep Within Venus’ Atmosphere, A Possible Sign Of Life

More traces of a gas thought to be a sign of life have been found in the clouds and haze layers of Venus.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
If life forms exist in the upper atmosphere of Venus, they must be extraordinarily resistant to radiation.Venus has no magnetic field.
 
Justo Miranda said:
If life forms exist in the upper atmosphere of Venus, they must be extraordinarily resistant to radiation.Venus has no magnetic field.
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Just look at some bacteria on earth and the conditions they live in including radiation.
 
I'd think the bigger problem would be lack of water. It is hard to imagine what form even monocellular life would take under those conditions.
 
Look at the bacteria that survive in the very hot water at Yellowstone National Park for example, extremophiles I think that they are called.
 
Good to see the now defunct SOFIA being used here especially as one of the reasons that it kept being criticised was lack of science results.
 

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