Leaked documents expose top secret Israeli drone

[quellish]

See my pm today. A field unit would need only that kind of robots to keep the RCS within operational constraints.

They would need an RCS range to measure and validate the baseline signature first as part of the development of the aircraft. Then a diagnostic imaging radar would capture what a "pristine" configuration looks like, and operational units would use the imaging radar to validate the LO integrity against that pristine baseline image after maintenance

Diagnostic imaging radars are not really useful at the development stage. Outdoor (far field) RCS ranges are critical during development.

 

[TomcatViP]

What we see is clearly an operational base!
Seems we have here a misunderstanding.

 

[quellish]

What we see is clearly an operational base!
Seems we have here a misunderstanding.

I don’t see the misunderstanding.

My original question was wether Israel has an outdoor RCS range - which is necessary to develop a stealth aircraft.

In response diagnostic imaging robots were brought into the conversation. Those robots are not a replacement for an RCS range and are not useful for the development process.

 

[MrPhantomMan]

Alright so we've established it's unlikely they've developed their own. What are the odds on them having bought one off the shelf?

 

[godstar23]

Alright so we've established it's unlikely they've developed their own. What are the odds on them having bought one off the shelf?

It would probably be identifiable by NGA then.

My original question was wether Israel has an outdoor RCS range - which is necessary to develop a stealth aircraft.

How good is a compact range? Could they get something "pretty stealthy" with just testing that way, even if it's not as an outdoor range and in-flight testing?

 

[quellish]

How good is a compact range? Could they get something "pretty stealthy" with just testing that way, even if it's not as an outdoor range and in-flight testing?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/leaked-documents-expose-top-secret-israeli-drone.44594/post-721033

 

[godstar23]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/leaked-documents-expose-top-secret-israeli-drone.44594/post-721033

I read that post; it was interesting info and why I was looking up more about ranges. The manufacturer seems to be claiming that using the reflector gives you outdoor-quality far-field measurements indoors ("all the benefits of far-field measurements but at a shorter-range length"). I was wondering if that was marketing hype.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Could a one way drone perhaps extend its range following a river using WIGE?

Rivers are crossed by bridges and power lines that a drone cannot avoid if it is not programmed to do so. In my opinion, it is much more effective to fly over railway lines and motorways because they are usually the shortest route.

 

[TomS]

The development work does not necessarily have to have occurred inside Israel.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The development work does not necessarily have to have occurred inside Israel.

If it's something the US doesn't know about, it's highly likely to have been developed inside Israel.

 

[quellish]

I read that post; it was interesting info and why I was looking up more about ranges. The manufacturer seems to be claiming that using the reflector gives you outdoor-quality far-field measurements indoors ("all the benefits of far-field measurements but at a shorter-range length"). I was wondering if that was marketing hype.

Yeah using reflectors to make a “longer” path isn’t going to lead to a good measurement. With each bounce loss and noise are introduced.

 

[quellish]

There have been few "news reports" of israeli "stealth" drones.

For example this one from a few years ago about the "secretive" "stealth" drone the Israelis were calling "Spork":

Israel’s air force officially receives new, secretive Spark UAV, 'gateway' to 5th gen drones - Breaking Defense

The military revealed little about the new platform, but claims it will “significantly improve” troops’ operational capability.

breakingdefense.com

This report created more speculation about Israeli stealth drones that was repeated on and on.

Earlier this year the "secretive" drone was displayed at trade show. In Saudi Arabia:

Israeli drone tested in Gaza 'appears at Saudi Defence Expo'

Orbiter 4 UAV, nicknamed Spark, is part of a top-secret Israeli drone programme dubbed Storm Clouds. It is being tested on the population of Gaza

www.newarab.com

Not actually looking very stealthy. I'm sure there were some similar stories going around earlier.

And in this most recent case, again, the source here is supposedly the documents leaked from NPIC/NIMA/ZIMA/NGA whatever their name is now, Except, those documents do not say anything about a stealth drone. A surveillance drone, sure. But it was someone on twitter who added the "stealth" part for no reason, and tried to make it look like they were quoting the leaked documents.

And now the "stealth drone" is being reported as fact by various websites and news agencies.

Let's take a step back and look at how the IAF has been maintaining their acknowledged "stealth" aircraft:



Yup, they're mopping the radar right off that sucker. Or destroying the coating stack and fiber-mat. THAT is a reason to get a diagnostic radar robot.

 

[TomcatViP]

Isn´t that an electrostatic cloth? I think they are dry and used to remove only the fine dust particles that comes with Desert operation.

 

[_Del_]

Not actually looking very stealthy. I'm sure there were some similar stories going around earlier.

"Stealth" is always a matter of degrees, and has always been used/abused in print media. It doesn't take a lot to be tactically useful, though (I know this is an unpopular opinion here haha).

You still see the occasional articles touting the "stealthy" Have Glass treatments, or Rafale's stealthiness.

Just takes one person mentioning the signature is less than might be expected and suddenly a journo hears the opportunity to use the word stealth in his article. Guaranteed click.

 

[publiusr]

It shocked me that the Thud didn't have as big a signature as one would imagine.

 

[quellish]

Isn´t that an electrostatic cloth? I think they are dry and used to remove only the fine dust particles that comes with Desert operation.

No, there are other photos of them hosing it down and using buckets.

 

[Desert Watchdog]

No, there are other photos of them hosing it down and using buckets.

I swear I've seen similar practices at US bases, in person. Tho they did have the water hooked up.

 

[eagle]

Cleaning the F-35 article @ the Aviationist.
I'm guessing they know what they're doing and are not using the first detergent they could find in the kitchen.

 

[DWG]

In my opinion, it is much more effective to fly over railway lines and motorways because they are usually the shortest route.

Historically railways typically followed the route with the least slope, not the shortest.

 

[publiusr]

Cleaning the F-35 article @ the Aviationist.
I'm guessing they know what they're doing and are not using the first detergent they could find in the kitchen.

They saved the Pine Sol for the three foot Enterprise

I guess they didn’t use the NO STEP stencil fearing the ink’s radar return.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Historically railways typically followed the route with the least slope, not the shortest.

What I was trying to say was that railway lines are shorter than the course of rivers, I didn't mean that they were the shortest distance between two places.

That reminds me of an anecdote I read about the layout of the ancient Roman roads. The engineers of the time used donkeys so that the animal's instinct would tell them which were the steepest routes to cross the mountains.

 

[DWG]

I guess they didn’t use the NO STEP stencil fearing the ink’s radar return.

We laugh, but these things do have a thickness (and a conductivity).

On a slightly thicker scale there was a period when I could feel road markings through a car's suspension, even though we don't normally consider those as having a perceivable depth. Sensitivity matters.

 

[DWG]

What I was trying to say was that railway lines are shorter than the course of rivers,

That's not necessarily true, a river thinks nothing of dropping 30m or more in no distance at all, a railway may have to go miles out of its way to avoid that drop and maintain it's ruling gradient (often 1 in 200). And railways are further constrained by permissible radius of curves, which can further restrict the feasibility of a particular path.

And of course if you're flying predictable routes along roads, rivers or railways, you're inviting someone to set up a flak trap or string a few cables, or just to run into existing ones. cf https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ter-norwegian-near-catastrophe/160477.article TLDR: Norwegian helicopter doing a cable survey ran into someone else's cable, not marked on the maps they were using, that crossed over the cable they were following.

 

[Justo Miranda]

That's not necessarily true, a river thinks nothing of dropping 30m or more in no distance at all, a railway may have to go miles out of its way to avoid that drop and maintain it's ruling gradient (often 1 in 200). And railways are further constrained by permissible radius of curves, which can further restrict the feasibility of a particular path.

And of course if you're flying predictable routes along roads, rivers or railways, you're inviting someone to set up a flak trap or string a few cables, or just to run into existing ones. cf https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ter-norwegian-near-catastrophe/160477.article TLDR: Norwegian helicopter doing a cable survey ran into someone else's cable, not marked on the maps they were using, that crossed over the cable they were following.

It doesn't matter how predictable it is, it just has to work the first time