Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte and P. 1500 Monster

[Taranov]

3-turret version

 

[Wurger]

Thank you so much for sharing! A less "naval" aspect to the Ratte, both in the main and the secondary turrets. Target designation and acquisition would be a problema, though.
The BA/MA in Freiburg has some very interesting drawings of german naval AA guns, maybe the ones (12,8 cm) depicted in the first version are among other iems. I have a list containing triaxial stabilised turrets for that caliber. Maybe...

Yuri, will you publish a book using this great material?

 

[Nick Sumner]

The turrets on the 3 turret version are unlike German naval turrets and are perhaps designed specifically for the vehicle? The secondaries look like between deck mountings.

 

[Michel Van]

The turrets on the 3 turret version are unlike German naval turrets and are perhaps designed specifically for the vehicle? The secondaries look like between deck mountings.

Not Kriegsmarine Naval turrets, but Turrets used by Wehrmacht on Atlantic wall

 

[athpilot]

Hi Michael Van,

as far as I know these Adolf-Kanonen (Adolf guns) 40.6 cm SK C/34 gun were indeed naval guns. They where intended to be used in the H-class Battleships. By cancelling these battleships the kriegsmarine used them as coastal defence (e.g. in Norway).

Greetings
Athpilot

 

[Michel Van]

yes that true, they are naval guns,
but those Turrets are they now original Navy or build by Wehrmacht to take the gun ?

 

[Rickshaw]

They were military barbettes for naval guns. As such, they were more lightly armoured than naval barbettes (relying on concrete and earth berms for most of their defence). If they were to be mounted onto a land vehicle, they'd need serious up-armouring even beyond that of the naval barbettes.

 

[athpilot]

They were military barbettes for naval guns. As such, they were more lightly armoured than naval barbettes (relying on concrete and earth berms for most of their defence). If they were to be mounted onto a land vehicle, they'd need serious up-armouring even beyond that of the naval barbettes.

... ist the german navy no "military"?! ???
@ Michel Van:
The Wehrmacht has never built anything. The german Industry has built the turrets (most likely Thyssen-Krupp). But I d´ont know for sure if the Kriegsmarine was the client. I guess they were.

 

[Jemiba]

I thought, we were speaking about the heavy artillery ? The naval turrets had up
to 340 mm armour, I don't think, that this would have been necessary for use on
those vehicles, apart from the fact, that it would have added far too much weight,
The 12.8, or maybe 10.5 cm twin mountings would have had just protection against
splinters and that would have been enough for the task, that those vehicles could
have fulfilled: Selfpropelled heavy artillery.

 

[Avimimus]

I thought, we were speaking about the heavy artillery ? The naval turrets had up
to 340 mm armour, I don't think, that this would have been necessary for use on
those vehicles, apart from the fact, that it would have added far too much weight,
The 12.8, or maybe 10.5 cm twin mountings would have had just protection against
splinters and that would have been enough for the task, that those vehicles could
have fulfilled: Selfpropelled heavy artillery.

It would take about 80mm of armour to fend off a RP-3 rocket or a 75mm round from an M5 cannon. I wonder if the roof armour would've been thick enough?

The real danger would come from bombs (cratering and near hits). Such a target is much slower and less maneuverable than a ship under power - so dive bombing with even fairly light bombs might do it in. It is also large enough that level bombers could spot it and drop a stick on it. A single raid by 20-100 aircraft and your artillery platform is gone.

Of course, if you surrounded it by flak guns (similar to a flak tower) you might be able to shoot down a fair number of those aircraft. Such a weapon would distract from other targets - and the long range artillery it could provide would be irritating enough that the enemy wouldn't be able to ignore it (for morale reasons if nothing else).

Still though, despite my rationalisations - it is still hard to conceive of this making any sense at all.

 

[Rickshaw]

They were military barbettes for naval guns. As such, they were more lightly armoured than naval barbettes (relying on concrete and earth berms for most of their defence). If they were to be mounted onto a land vehicle, they'd need serious up-armouring even beyond that of the naval barbettes.

... ist the german navy no "military"?! ???
@ Michel Van:
The Wehrmacht has never built anything. The german Industry has built the turrets (most likely Thyssen-Krupp). But I d´ont know for sure if the Kriegsmarine was the client. I guess they were.

"Military" generally refers to the Army in most English speaking nations. "Naval" refers specifically to the Navy, which interestingly enough is also a military force but not considered the Military.

Isn't English fun? I suspect we make it deliberately confusing just to annoy non-English speakers! ;D

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a side note, relating to the Schwerer Gustav, here's a interesting photo via wizzed.com:

 

[sgeorges4]

Original drawing(I think): https://bunkermeister.blogspot.com/2015/08/ratte-p1000.html

 

[TsrJoe]

Tank Museum, Bovington, June 2018

 

[moin1900]

An excellent book about this topic.

"Überschwere Panzerprojekte" by Michael Fröhlich.

The book covers the history of german super-heavy tanks like the P.1000, the super-heavy Panzermörser "Urling" and many others like the E-series.

 

[moin1900]

Überschwere Panzerprojekte by Michael Fröhlich
Here the Index/Inhaltsverzeichnis of the book.
http://d-nb.info/1098444191

 

[Antonio]

Also from the author
Michael Fröhlich
Panzerkampfwagen Maus: Der überschwere Panzer Porsche Typ 205

 

[Foo Fighter]

They were military barbettes for naval guns. As such, they were more lightly armoured than naval barbettes (relying on concrete and earth berms for most of their defence). If they were to be mounted onto a land vehicle, they'd need serious up-armouring even beyond that of the naval barbettes.

... ist the german navy no "military"?! ???
@ Michel Van:
The Wehrmacht has never built anything. The german Industry has built the turrets (most likely Thyssen-Krupp). But I d´ont know for sure if the Kriegsmarine was the client. I guess they were.

"Military" generally refers to the Army in most English speaking nations. "Naval" refers specifically to the Navy, which interestingly enough is also a military force but not considered the Military.

Isn't English fun? I suspect we make it deliberately confusing just to annoy non-English speakers! ;D

Not to be argumentative but, I have never come across the point made above. The word Military has always meant, Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines collective.

 

[Avimimus]

FYI - As a Canadian I use the 'Military' to refer to any armed force that isn't a police force - often those of other countries. 'Military' definitely includes all branches have the armed forces in Canada. However, I use 'Armed Forces' to refer to the Canadian Army/Navy/Airforce (and I assume it refers to the Canadian armed forces if no other country is mentioned).

Not sure how terms are used in other countries.

 

[Antonio]

Not sure how terms are used in other countries

The same for Spain

 

[TomS]

Certainly true in the US as well. Formally, we speak of the Armed Forces (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard), and Uniformed Services (The five armed services plus the Public Health Service and the NOAA Commissioned Officer Corps). "Military" would typically refer to all of the big four services (Coast Guard sometimes not counted -- the official line used to be "the Coast Guard is an Armed Service and a military service in time of war" but tthese days they prefer to be considered a military service at all times.)

One sometimes sees the reverse, where "army" and "soldier" refer to all four services for people who don't care to distinguish between them.

 

[Avimimus]

Now that you mention it - for people who aren't in the army, and particularly with the exception of privates - I would tend to refer to people by the rank, role, and service branch (i.e. So-in-so is a Lieutenant in the Air Force). Btw. I'm a civilian from a civilian family (last service was in WWII), so I can't speak for conventions used by military families in Canada.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Albert Speer's right hand man Karl Otto Saur on the 1000 ton Panzer during interrogation at 'Dustbin' on June 11, 1945:

 

[Wirbelwind]

Early 3 Turret model of the Ratte, was to be 800 tons, armed with likely 305mm guns as they were the only ones Grotte had received blueprints of from the Kriegsmarine at this time.

The secondary turrets were armed with twin 128mm guns.

There were quite a few different designs for the Ratte, including one that is fairly similar to the one commonly depicted in media.

Tank Archives/Archive Awareness has done a quite good article on it.

Steel Sarcophagus

A blog about World War II era archive documents, primarily dealing with armoured warfare.

tankarchives.blogspot.com

 

[newsdeskdan]

Early 3 Turret model of the Ratte, was to be 800 tons, armed with likely 305mm guns as they were the only ones Grotte had received blueprints of from the Kriegsmarine at this time.

The secondary turrets were armed with twin 128mm guns.

There were quite a few different designs for the Ratte, including one that is fairly similar to the one commonly depicted in media.

Tank Archives/Archive Awareness has done a quite good article on it.

Steel Sarcophagus

A blog about World War II era archive documents, primarily dealing with armoured warfare.

tankarchives.blogspot.com

I'm mostly just shocked that it turns out to have been real!

 

[Jemiba]

I'm mostly just shocked that it turns out to have been real!

Indeed ! Imaging the "mobility" such vehicles would have had, maybe our discussion about German
projects, that were just kept alive to keep the designers busy should have been more focussed on
army projects, than on Luftwaffe projects !
To be fair, Dipl. Ing Grothe, tasked with the development of a 1000 t tank was described by Karl Otto Saur as
a mixture of a technician and a daydreamer, so the "worth" of such designs seems to have been clear to at least
some people on the higher levels. Just a pity, if the decision makers weren't part of that community ...

 

[kitnut617]

Lovely Tallboy target ---

 

[Dilandu]

Lovely Tallboy target ---

I think, Tiny Tim with heavier AP warhead would be more practical)

 

[Dilandu]

To be fair, Dipl. Ing Grothe, tasked with the development of a 1000 t tank was described by Karl Otto Saur as
a mixture of a technician and a daydreamer, so the "worth" of such designs seems to have been clear to at least
some people on the higher levels. Just a pity, if the decision makers weren't part of that community ...

That's why USSR did not want to re-hire him)

 

[Wirbelwind]

I'm mostly just shocked that it turns out to have been real!

Indeed ! Imaging the "mobility" such vehicles would have had, maybe our discussion about German
projects, that were just kept alive to keep the designers busy should have been more focussed on
army projects, than on Luftwaffe projects !
To be fair, Dipl. Ing Grothe, tasked with the development of a 1000 t tank was described by Karl Otto Saur as
a mixture of a technician and a daydreamer, so the "worth" of such designs seems to have been clear to at least
some people on the higher levels. Just a pity, if the decision makers weren't part of that community ...

As mentioned by someone else he previously worked for the USSR, and designed similarly impractical things.

That's why USSR did not want to re-hire him)

Yes, and the original design for the Ratte was essentially a modified version of a vehicle he designed for the USSR.

 

[Taranov]

Tank Archives/Archive Awareness has done a quite good article on it.

Steel Sarcophagus

A blog about World War II era archive documents, primarily dealing with armoured warfare.

tankarchives.blogspot.com

Yep, it's translated version of my artilce from Warspot.

 

[Wirbelwind]

Tank Archives/Archive Awareness has done a quite good article on it.

Steel Sarcophagus

A blog about World War II era archive documents, primarily dealing with armoured warfare.

tankarchives.blogspot.com

Yep, it's translated version of my artilce from Warspot.

Yes, you did a very good job. Unfortunately I do not speak Russian and so cannot really use Warspot itself.

 

[airman]

Surely two projects were no practical utility : just for avoid oriental front

 

[KonTim]

Just a question:

How many P.1000 Ratte land cruisers were supposed to be build? A handful of them or maybe some few dozens???

 

[Jemiba]

Reading again the document Dan posted about two years ago ( https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...000-ratte-and-p-1500-monster.2240/post-372432 ), I would say none at all !

 

[gabrielorosco]

Hi!

These are renders of the 5 and 3 turret variants of the P.1000, from a 3D model made with my guidance and Frohlich support. These and many more renders will be featured in an article I am writing. The 3-turret version was the last one developed, an "upgrade" of the 5-turret one.

 

[Silencer1]

If only Kriegsmarine has been smart enough and adds to the Ratte nose and back hull parts, they already have in yards (unfinished). Thus they obtain heavy armored and heavy armed small cruiser with exceptional background!
No problems with movement on Earth surface, no restrictions to the bridges, roads or any obstacles. This would be a really all (sea) terrain vehicle.
And tank' crew automatically obtain seaman ranks! Tank commander quickly promoted to the "Kapitan-zur-See".
That's prospectives, no one could resists

P.S. Some steps in that direction have been realized by wise Japanese command: Type 2 Ka-Mi

 

[Dball]

what precisely is the text on that picture supposed to mean? .. the orginal is supposedly german, but i (as german native speaker) have been trying to translate it back into german for some time now and have been unable to produce any meaningful "orignal version"

Where do you individuals do research, Spielberg center or something... the P1000 and P1500 HAVE NEVER BEEN PROVEN TO HAVE BEEN AUTHENTIC IN ANY WAY.

and in regards to resource consumption
Hitler had the E100 canceled (never approved it)
Hitler had the MAUS canceled (never approved it)
Hitler had the Dora canceled after Rommel went through the Ardennes.

Absolutely none of the "Hitler made bad decisions that wasted resources" lies pushed by various media outlets and books have been proven to be authentic

 

[Dball]

N

3-turret version

ice pics of soviet models

 

[Dball]

Taranov, can you please show us the second version?

Those are models made IN THE SOVIET UNION not in Germany