Kriegsmarine - KM Ship Plans/Discussion

[_Sarcasticat_]

Hello and welcome,

This is no longer the hub for all things Kriegsmarine, but a section of what was once a much larger thread that has since been broken up into various pieces for sake of organization, I suppose.

This is now the primary section as far as I am concerned. Links will be included below for the other sections - see below.

It's been an interesting journey. Glad I made this thread on the whim that I did, and I've seen the results spread far and wide...for better and for worse. Even still, I've enjoyed the interactions with regard to the Kriegsmarine here more than anywhere else I've wandered. Anywho, it's been real, it's been fun...you get the idea.

I hope you enjoy what's been posted. If you need me, you can message me. I will reply...eventually. Probably. I lead a pretty busy life, after all.

See you out there.

- Sarcasticat.

​

Kriegsmarine - KM Naval Armament Plans/Discussion​

Kaiserliche Marine - Imperial German Navy Ship Plans/Discussion​

Kriegsmarine Naval What-If Ships​

 

[alexi]

Any possibility for pre-Scharnhorst and pre-Bismarck plans?, don't think those are easy to find.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Any possibility for pre-Scharnhorst and pre-Bismarck plans?, don't think those are easy to find.

If you're looking for proto-Scharnhorst's then look no further than Panzerschiff D (Ersatz Elsass) preliminaries:

There are a few images of Schlatschiff F and G (prelim designs for Bismarck) floating around on the internet.

Honestly though? You hit anything above a heavy cruiser and in large part you've lost my interest.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

We have this image, for instance:

Not sure how accurate it is. If I knew the source, I might actually have it buried deep within my long list of legally obtained:tm: PDF books.

 

[alexi]

Thanks you, wish i have Whitley books around, i never bother to buy one or look at it first, but other guys said it helpful if you want to find Kriegsmarine plans and projects.

Maomatic work is close, i have some Scharnhorst preliminary photos under project D1 to D7 (no D4 and D5 sadly), secondaries is spot on too (they didn't have single 15cm until later), no aviation and no torpedoes too.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

So let's see what we've got here.
Edit: Apologies on the weird embedding. I blame it on SPF

A bad workman blames his tools. I altered the links to IMG instead of MEDIA links and it looks fine to me. I strongly advise uploading to the forum instead of linking anyway as linked image tend to die over time while pics uploaded in December 2005 are still good

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

So let's see what we've got here.
Edit: Apologies on the weird embedding. I blame it on SPF

A bad workman blames his tools. I altered the links to IMG instead of MEDIA links and it looks fine to me. I strongly advise uploading to the forum instead of linking anyway as linked image tend to die over time while pics uploaded in December 2005 are still good

Why thank you kind sir.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Thanks you, wish i have Whitley books around, i never bother to buy one or look at it first, but other guys said it helpful if you want to find Kriegsmarine plans and projects.

Maomatic work is close, i have some Scharnhorst preliminary photos under project D1 to D7 (no D4 and D5 sadly), secondaries is spot on too (they didn't have single 15cm until later), no aviation and no torpedoes too.

I'm curious on what you've got for D6/D7 (and by extension the Neuentwurf I/II)
In the meantime I'll poke around my sources and see if I can find anything.
I've severely backlogged my middleman with plans so I'd rather wait on inquiring further until I can get what I've already asked for.

 

[Roodbaard1958!]

There is an alternative for drawings of some smaller German naval units. Dutch shipyards were forced to built such although few were completed. The archive of the Kon. MIj. De Schelde contains several hundreds of drawings, even of the smallest details. I was responsible for the digitization project. The drawings are now preserved at the Zeeuws Archief at Middelburg, Netherlands but traceable via a website. the website is in Dutch, but for non-Dutch speaking people, there is a guide with article written in English available.

for mineseweepers: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/7C4EE0A75C134BFD90E23C1F67FEAEBD
for fleet torpedo boats: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/DB842B90D9144DFB8C916431097B15C9
for trawlers: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/61FE960F37F34C46B12DF3FEA6B82C6E
for destroyers: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/31618891F05C4FF687CC77C90B996680
for cargo ships: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/145CE711B57B4C67AEDE31216563B555
for pathfinders: drawings are missing, for some details"http://warshipsresearch.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-never-built-german-minefield.html

The article including search guide you can find on: https://globalmaritimehistory.com/the-dutch-shipyard-kon-mij-de-schelde-1875-1970-and-her-archives/

 

[ptdockyard]

Thanks so much for posting the Kreuzer 1938 and the TA7 The TA-7 looks like the Norwegian Ålesund-class destroyer and I think those would have earlier been designated ZN-4 and ZN-5. These are the first plans I have seen of these ships aside from simple side views. Very helpful! I'll add it to my 1/1200 projects.

The Panzerschiffe D4a with 4 turrets is new to me. Where can I find more details?

Dave G

 

[alexi]

Thanks so much for posting the Kreuzer 1938 and the TA7 The TA-7 looks like the Norwegian Ålesund-class destroyer and I think those would have earlier been designated ZN-4 and ZN-5. These are the first plans I have seen of these ships aside from simple side views. Very helpful! I'll add it to my 1/1200 projects.

The Panzerschiffe D4a with 4 turrets is new to me. Where can I find more details?

Dave G

For some information about panzerschiff "D" plans, i think this very old forum can help you.

Read a bit more you can find a bit mention about unfortunate panzerschiff "F" before placed by new battleship design.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Thanks so much for posting the Kreuzer 1938 and the TA7 The TA-7 looks like the Norwegian Ålesund-class destroyer and I think those would have earlier been designated ZN-4 and ZN-5. These are the first plans I have seen of these ships aside from simple side views. Very helpful! I'll add it to my 1/1200 projects.

The Panzerschiffe D4a with 4 turrets is new to me. Where can I find more details?

Dave G

No problemo.

And you are correct in that assessment. It is ex-ZN4/ZN5, TA7/TA8 - "Ålesund-class". This is the original plan for the class, the main reason I got it being, of course, that it is highly indicative of TA7/TA8's internal layout.

I honestly wouldn't know. I did find some info on the displacement and dimensions of Neuentwurf I and II though.

 

[muttly]

german-navy.de has some drawings and specs if I understand what you are looking for.

 

[alexi]

Say... i remember BigRich said there're several Bismarck designs with triple turret and 16" guns, he pointed on Whitley German Warships book i think, one design with 12x15" guns and modified 8x16" guns in respond to Soviet order their Sovietsky Soyuz, any ideas?.

german-navy.de

While the sites is good for what you looking at ship history and their activities, there's not much about paper designs or any of these obscure Scharnhorst plans.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Say... i remember BigRich said there're several Bismarck designs with triple turret and 16" guns, he pointed on Whitley German Warships book i think, one design with 12x15" guns and modified 8x16" guns in respond to Soviet order their Sovietsky Soyuz, any ideas?.

german-navy.de

While the sites is good for what you looking at ship history and their activities, there's not much about paper designs or any of these obscure Scharnhorst plans.

I have also heard of a 4x3 38cm H-39 design (in the event that procurement of 40.6cm twins was not met in time - and stuff like that does happen...see the production of the 15cm/48 Tbts KC/36T), but nothing on 4x3 38cm Bismarck. I can potentially see a 4x3 30.5cm variant though. Unfortunately I don't know enough about German BB's to know the prelim design armaments beyond something like 4x2 35cm.

I have a pretty interesting source on German capital ships produced during the war:
German Capital Ships of the Second World War by Siegfried Breyer and Miroslaw Skwiot. Those names alone, should you recognize them, are merit enough to warrant a purchase.
More relevant to your last line, in said book I found a mention that one of the prelim armament choices for Scharn was to be 3x3 30.5cm which may actually lend credence to the battleship Odin in World of Warships, should you know it.

 

[Grey Havoc]

I found a mention that one of the prelim armament choices for Scharn was to be 3x3 30.5cm which may actually lend credence to the battleship Odin in World of Warships, should you know it.

Nine 12 inch guns, that would have given the Admiralty even more of a headache!

 

[alexi]

The forum above i linked mentioned about 30cm proposal panzerschiff D, said only two or three because they were ruled out in favor of 28cm guns (due to availability and in production), 26.500-30000 tons range design with 9x30cm can be up-gunned for 6x33cm or 35cm in twin mounts, at least some proof about Odin origin although she is 90% Wargaming creation (partly hull being enlarge D3a hull and complete makeup structures but pretty German-ish overall).

I have also heard of a 4x3 38cm H-39 design

Yes, i heard this one about modified H-class with triple 15" turret, but no luck about their information.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

The forum above i linked mentioned about 30cm proposal panzerschiff D, said only two or three because they were ruled out in favor of 28cm guns (due to availability and in production), 26.500-30000 tons range design with 9x30cm can be up-gunned for 6x33cm or 35cm in twin mounts, at least some proof about Odin origin although she is 90% Wargaming creation (partly hull being enlarge D3a hull and complete makeup structures but pretty German-ish overall).

I have also heard of a 4x3 38cm H-39 design

Yes, i heard this one about modified H-class with triple 15" turret, but no luck about their information.

WG butchering designs for little good reason, a ride that never ends.

Looks like we're stuck with Pommern as our representation, poor as it is.

To all others:
I've received an email informing me of the intention to digitize a whole slew of plans. Consisting of torpedo boats and destroyers, these should include the finale of the Flottentorpedoboot 1942 plans, Type 1937 series DD's, more Flottentorpedoboot 1941, the like.
Including some additional plans from abroad.
Will be posted as I receive them proper.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

ALCON,

Probably should add this here for those interested in the full-sized plans. If you intend to download them, I HIGHLY suggest you have some good internet. Included you will also find RM 25/256, full plans for Weser I. (The heavy cruiser Seydlitz conversion).

Germany - Sarcasticat's Home :) - Google Drive

drive.google.com

This link will be put in the OP.
I plan to make this thread a hub for all future plans I intend to share.
There are others I currently have from BDA but are not yet uploaded. I'll upload them when I can.

 

[alexi]

Amazing works, am really curious just how difficult and how long for you guys to take these scans?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Amazing works, am really curious just how difficult and how long for you guys to take these scans?

Considering I live in the US, I have to have someone in Germany get them for me. He requests that the BDA Freiburg digitize them, and he passes them along to me.
But based on the rate I've been receiving scans, it must be difficult under the workload trying to recover from the swamp of requests after COVID.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

ALCON,

In the spirit of keeping the discussion alive - I believe there is a lot we can share with one another here - I will be providing a much greater list of plans when I return to the US in the next few days. That's all for now, ty.

 

[alexi]

You know, Wargaming was not wrong that they did give communities the clue (hinting the archives) about triple turret, but hardly anyone bat an eye and call German triple turret pure fantasy.

 

[Tzoli]

Problem is wargaming creates so much non historical hypothetical designs even with no regards to the nation's design philosophy and the fact they say it was based on historical documents yet not showing any evidence to such documents Like the 4x3 203mm armed IJN Heavy cruiser clearly based on this drawing of a news article:

http://wiki.gcdn.co/images/a/a1/Magazine.jpg

and which deemed non historical (very americanish look) makes us true naval enthusiasts question EVERY ship they decide to include in the game

 

[awhalen61]

Problem is wargaming creates so much non historical hypothetical designs even with no regards to the nation's design philosophy and the fact they say it was based on historical documents yet not showing any evidence to such documents Like the 4x3 203mm armed IJN Heavy cruiser clearly based on this drawing of a news article:

http://wiki.gcdn.co/images/a/a1/Magazine.jpg

and which deemed non historical (very americanish look) makes us true naval enthusiasts question EVERY ship they decide to include in the game

Yep. If wargaming was clearer about what exactly was based off actual projects and what wasn't, it'd be nice as a starting point for digging into things. But it takes serious connections to get actual answers, and even then it's like pulling teeth (trust me, I'm responsible for a lot of it!)

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

ALCON,

Plans uploading, will post updates soon.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Problem is wargaming creates so much non historical hypothetical designs even with no regards to the nation's design philosophy and the fact they say it was based on historical documents yet not showing any evidence to such documents Like the 4x3 203mm armed IJN Heavy cruiser clearly based on this drawing of a news article:

http://wiki.gcdn.co/images/a/a1/Magazine.jpg

and which deemed non historical (very americanish look) makes us true naval enthusiasts question EVERY ship they decide to include in the game

Yep. If wargaming was clearer about what exactly was based off actual projects and what wasn't, it'd be nice as a starting point for digging into things. But it takes serious connections to get actual answers, and even then it's like pulling teeth (trust me, I'm responsible for a lot of it!)

It's just as cringe to watch the rest of you guys have to fight tooth and nail just to get some half-assed answers - "it's NDA, sorry".
They come through sometimes, but it's not as consistent as it should be.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

The plans and here, in their entirety:

German Ship Plans - SARCASTICAT - Google Drive

drive.google.com

Any questions, just ask.

 

[alexi]

Do you have O-class armor and deck plans by any?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Do you have O-class armor and deck plans by any?

Armor values can be found here and there online but I don't believe I do on-hand.
Potentially in one of my PDF book sources.

 

[Nick Sumner]

Thank you for sharing these Sarcasticat. They are an invaluable resource.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Thank you for sharing these Sarcasticat. They are an invaluable resource.

Of course. I've been wanting to do this for a while, but did not quite know where to make their debut with a good historical community without a sinkhole-minded World of Warships player capitalizing on their release to make terrible suggestions with.
At least let me be the one to make terrible suggestions first.

Anyway, vent aside, I've still got more incoming - a few repeats and plenty of new scans in that hefty .TIFF size. They will taken some time, but they will be coming.

 

[Tzoli]

Yes WoWs forums is bad for this kind of info sharing.

 

[alexi]

Anyway, vent aside, I've still got more incoming - a few repeats and plenty of new scans in that hefty .TIFF size. They will taken some time, but they will be coming.

Looking forward to the rest of RM-24 documents if you looking by, am still curious about German prototype weapons, so many things.

True, its pain to see how WoWs directions went into (i blame WG), reddit and forums turn into hivemind cesspool, only bias and conspiracy nonsense.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Anyway, vent aside, I've still got more incoming - a few repeats and plenty of new scans in that hefty .TIFF size. They will taken some time, but they will be coming.

Looking forward to the rest of RM-24 documents if you looking by, am still curious about German prototype weapons, so many things.

True, its pain to see how WoWs directions went into (i blame WG), reddit and forums turn into hivemind cesspool, only bias and conspiracy nonsense.

Haven't asked much about weaponry, though I have some questions myself about quite a large variety of German guns. Of course mostly 3cm weapons, a little on the 3.7cm/69 and /57, 12.8cm/61 KM40, /45 SK C/41, a few lesser known weapons like the 10.5cm KM44 or M44, as well as an 10.5cm SK C/36. So many mysteries.

Yes, the WoWs Reddit is truly something else.

A japanese book about AA guns and AA ships? IJN or world wide?
But looks interesting

And yes they always find my old drawing of the IJN AA cruiser instead of the better newer one

Japanese. AFAIK goes into some peculiar projects that aren't particularly known.

Japanese AA guns？
View attachment 661873

三年式E1高角炮 - 舰R百科

www.zjsnrwiki.com

I'll have to check this one out, ty.

 

[Tzoli]

Sounds intetesting!

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Sounds intetesting!

When I take leave here later this August, I'll copy the entire book and place it here.

 

[alexi]

I was wondering, are there any real reasons why German ditched turtleback on Mackensen in favor of vertical belt? i heard plenty reasons (weight, long-range fire, underwater shell hit against lower belt, buoyancy etc).

 

[Hood]

When I take leave here later this August, I'll copy the entire book and place it here.

Please don't do this - the forum has strict rules about adhering to copyright.

NEVER post images or whole pages from currently available books or magazines without the permission of the copyright holder. This harms revenues and may jeopardise the production of future books and magazines. Aviation publishing isn't a big money maker and we must support the authors and publishers. Posting a summary in your own words is acceptable.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

When I take leave here later this August, I'll copy the entire book and place it here.

Please don't do this - the forum has strict rules about adhering to copyright.

NEVER post images or whole pages from currently available books or magazines without the permission of the copyright holder. This harms revenues and may jeopardise the production of future books and magazines. Aviation publishing isn't a big money maker and we must support the authors and publishers. Posting a summary in your own words is acceptable.

My apologies, I should have known. I won't post it here.


Completely unrelated, if anyone wants to talk to me directly (for questions and the like) please feel free to send me a DM on discord at _Sarcasticat_#8213.