Kriegsmarine - KM, O-, P-, Q-Class Battleships/Battlecruisers
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Die Katze.
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Hello,
I'd love to help. I can't promise I'll be able to find a higher resolution image of what you've posted, but I can try and see what I have.
Many thanks for all of your help -- DRW
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Die Katze.
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I researched and poked around and unfortunately I cannot find anything with exception to this image, which is very similar to what you posted.
It's approximately similar.
I also have this, which might be helpful:
P-class_Breyer_2002 - Google Drive
drive.google.com
Finding information for the almost absurd amount of variation this design has is mind-numbing.
Oh, and there are two new Graf Spee images in the GS folder.
I researched and poked around and unfortunately I cannot find anything with exception to this image, which is very similar to what you posted.
View attachment 682234
It's approximately similar.
I also have this, which might be helpful:
P-class_Breyer_2002 - Google Drive
Finding information for the almost absurd amount of variation this design has is mind-numbing.
Oh, and there are two new Graf Spee images in the GS folder.
Well, this is the well known A-V drawing. I believe this one is from Breyer's "Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1921-1997", pg 185. There is a similar one in Gröner's "German Warships 1815-1945 Volume One: Major Surface Vessels".
The drawing in Appendix F that I provided earlier is compelling because it is similar to the one in Breyer's "Battleships and Battlecruisers 1905-1970" (yes, that's the English translation) pg 305. Breyer says it is from late 1938.
The Appendix F version is much more detailed, and has some interesting differences. Breyer pretty admitted that his drawing was mostly from memory. Since the Appendix F version seems to be original, it is, to my mind, much more valuable. Unfortunately, the resolution of the image is not good enough for us to read the text.
David R. Wells
You mean Appendix L? its probably lost somewhere in the bunderarchiv, in the list of nameless scans and documents, i see what i can find on German and Russian forum sites.
Appendix L - P cruiser
Appendix M -???
Appendix N - KW45/50 battlecruiser.
Appendix L - P cruiser
Appendix M -???
Appendix N - KW45/50 battlecruiser.
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Sorry, you are correct, Appendix L. I'd blame a "fat finger" error, but the keys are too far apart.
DRW
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I had forgotten that KW45/50 were in Appendix N. I have heard that KW45/50 were found in the US National Archives, so perhaps more P-class variant designs reside there as well, unfound by European historians?
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MrMemerMan
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I have some some plans for KW45/50 and some data. A lot of info is currently unknown or is generally unknown due to it being a private design that was drawn up by the Kriegsmarinewerft. The KW in the design name is short for "Kriegsmarinewerft".
In 1939, 2 versions of this project were submitted for consideration by the Kriegsmarine shipbuilding commission ( German: Neubauausschuss ): KW45 and KW50 .
They slightly differed from each other in displacement , armor, and also in size. Armament and layout were identical.
KW45:
Displacement: 45,000 Tons
-
Dimensions:
•Length: 984 Feet
•Beam: 108 Feet
•Draft: 29 Feet
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Powerplant: DPU, 300,000 hp
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Speed: 37 Knots
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Armor:
Belt: 200mm
Deck: 115mm
(Note: My source has listed "towers" but I have no idea what those are referring to. Not conning towers or turret faces. I'll edit this if I figure it out.)
-
Armament:
•Main Battery: 4x2 380mm SK C/34
•Secondary: 4x3 150mm SK C/25
•Anti-Aircraft: 8x2 37mm SK C/30 / 4x2 105mm SK C/33
Torpedoes: 2x4 533mm TA
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Aircraft:
•X3 Arado Ar 196
--------------------
KW50:
Displacement: 50,000 Tons
-
Dimensions:
•Length: 984 Feet
•Beam: 118 Feet
•Draft: 29 Feet
-
Powerplant: DPU, 300,000 hp
-
Speed: 35 Knots
-
Armor:
Belt: 300mm
Deck: 115mm
-
Armament:
•Main Battery: 4x2 380mm SK C/34
•Secondary: 4x3 150mm SK C/25
•Anti-Aircraft: 8x2 37mm SK C/30 / 4x2 105mm SK C/33
•Torpedoes: 2x4 533mm TA
-
Aircraft:
•X3 Arado Ar 196
--------------------
Note: The two KW designs looked nearly exactly the same. However, if you look at the top left on the blueprints, you can see a version with 3 propeller, and a slightly visible version with 4. I think KW50 had 4 propellers, since it was the largest of the two. If I am mistaken I will correct it.
Or if it was just a proposed planned selection of areas propellers could have gone I will correct this if someone points it out.
Attachments
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And there is evidence for a 30.000ton variant eg KW30:
I have recently done writing 5 pages of O-class design and its evolutions on RM 6_83 (starting p117-p121) in German texts, i will post them later for anyone want to read or translate (unless you're German speaker) since deepL translation isn't 100% perfect, here's some basic summary and guess:
1. "O-39" is battlecruiser "Q" due to their matching length (246m waterline compare to O at 248m), reduced length mean reduced speed at 33.5 knots, matching beam and draft as well.
2. "O-40" going back to original P-class root, requirement at 26000 tons armed but with 38cm guns only (2x2), a respond to criticism of O-class at the time, as they were large and expensive, a lesser design while carrying same guns (less 1 turret), same armor and speed could have been cost effective.
3."O-41" the medium type battleship version of O, displace almost 45000 tons, slow at 32 knots and increasing armor protection, armaments wise same as O. (39, 40 and 41 all have deck mounted two triple torpedo launchers.)
4. "O-42" influenced from H-class battleship, design wise is a scaled down H-41 armed with 8x38cm but faster (H level of protection but O armor scheme layout), weight at nearly 68000 tons, secondary batteries have 12x15cm, 12x10.5cm more smaller 3.7cm and 20mm flak 30 quad mounts and six single submerged torpedo tubes.
5. "PI" and "PII" new designs, rearrangement of machinery layout, suppose to make it compact and as well reduce citadel length and size (all-or-nothing?) as such for reduction the hangars and spotting planes has to be remove and adopt universal 12.7cm flak (8x2) over mixed 15cm and 10.5cm batteries greater flexibility, using diesel engine reduce their speed by significant (both barely make over 28 knots), also no torpedo armaments. Designer noted as speed isn't important, as they can match H-class speed, favoring more durability and flexibility while reconnaissances and spotting both done by future aircraft carriers and mainlands.
1. "O-39" is battlecruiser "Q" due to their matching length (246m waterline compare to O at 248m), reduced length mean reduced speed at 33.5 knots, matching beam and draft as well.
2. "O-40" going back to original P-class root, requirement at 26000 tons armed but with 38cm guns only (2x2), a respond to criticism of O-class at the time, as they were large and expensive, a lesser design while carrying same guns (less 1 turret), same armor and speed could have been cost effective.
3."O-41" the medium type battleship version of O, displace almost 45000 tons, slow at 32 knots and increasing armor protection, armaments wise same as O. (39, 40 and 41 all have deck mounted two triple torpedo launchers.)
4. "O-42" influenced from H-class battleship, design wise is a scaled down H-41 armed with 8x38cm but faster (H level of protection but O armor scheme layout), weight at nearly 68000 tons, secondary batteries have 12x15cm, 12x10.5cm more smaller 3.7cm and 20mm flak 30 quad mounts and six single submerged torpedo tubes.
5. "PI" and "PII" new designs, rearrangement of machinery layout, suppose to make it compact and as well reduce citadel length and size (all-or-nothing?) as such for reduction the hangars and spotting planes has to be remove and adopt universal 12.7cm flak (8x2) over mixed 15cm and 10.5cm batteries greater flexibility, using diesel engine reduce their speed by significant (both barely make over 28 knots), also no torpedo armaments. Designer noted as speed isn't important, as they can match H-class speed, favoring more durability and flexibility while reconnaissances and spotting both done by future aircraft carriers and mainlands.
tl;dr: Criticisms and unsatisfactory performance of "cruiser-killer" O led to more alternatives, "PI,II" designed for ideal scenarios that had Germany complete plan-Z.
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Battleships not much to my knowledge, capital ships (Battlecruisers, Large Big Gun Cruisers) yes:
KW-35 -45 -50
O-39 -40 -41 -42
P (Original, Variant I and II)
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Die Katze.
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KW30, though I strongly believe KW30 is 039.
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I'll have to look again, but I believe I only have the most complete version of O (that I am aware of). There are some armor pictures of O floating around which don't correlate - maybe because it's an earlier armor scheme or it may just be incorrect. I've forgotten that conversation a bit.
Speaking of O, here's text about O-class proposed re-armament of the new 28.3cm from RM 20/1913, dated around July 1939 and am planning to do another write-up soon.
Edit: ah its matched!
Short version: new triple 28.3 cm guns weight heavier and need bigger barbatte than old 28.3cm and 38cm diameter, am thinking this related the "P" turret i posted while ago.
Edit: ah its matched!
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O-39 is the modified battlecruiser "Q", see the data tables (if you have "Q" specs).
He mean those "trade destroyer" after P-class, anyway they're not much different, other than stronger engines for longer range, armaments are the same as P, 15cm in triple instead twin, speed at modest this time (31-33 knots depending on designs), they also came with 38cm guns variants which already done on preliminaries P and O derivatives (i.e O40).
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Here are two variants of the Panzerschiff P project (1938 and 1939) and the "Handelzerstorer" variants following them
The P-class preliminaries and probably proto-O, they're in RM/7 - "Organisation der Kriegsmarine - Kriegsschiffbauten", you can also find documents from other ships, plan Z programs (even estimate plan Z to 1948), various booklogs about other warships type, captured French navy documents and other nations, new fleet programs in 1943-1944 etc, Siegfried Breyer cited (not digitalized btw).
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I don't have Q specs on-hand. I haven't delved far into RM6, only gotten information from those who can read German, but it's all bits and pieces.
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Handelzerstorer designs are just P follow-ons at a significantly lower priority. May 1939 was the P "rage quit" as the design wasn't working out at the time (due to an issue with the armor scheme), so they dropped it - only to pick it back up again to mess around with the idea, so to speak.
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