KRIEGSMARINE CENTRAL - KM Ship Plans/Discussion

Tzoli said:
The 28cm labelled twin and triple turret drawings shows a 16-16,1m long barrel (With the breech mechanism) which is good for the 14,815m long barrel of the actual Deutschlands (Projectile lengths was 1.047 and 1.188mm APC and HE)
That other drawing shows a barrel length of 20,1-20,2m with the breech mechanism. A 305mm/60 gun should be 18,3m long with the added breech mechanism that is good for 20 meters (The 305mm shell for the 30,5cm/56 SK C/39 gun was 1.4950mm long) that is why I think that drawing is for the bigger, 305mm armed Zenker design's turret.
Click to expand...
Good eye, honestly i didn't noticed first one have barrel length have over 14 meters long and barbatte diameter too also different between two, the rest seems match 28.3cm gun length though.
 
Seems like I've got the wrong barrel length for the Zenker 305mm armed designs. Instead of /55 calibre they would had /60 calibre or this twin turret shows a prototype longer gun.
Note that if the bigger turret was for the 283mm gun than that means a /64 or /65 long barrel!
 
Tzoli said:
Seems like I've got the wrong barrel length for the Zenker 305mm armed designs. Instead of /55 calibre they would had /60 calibre or this twin turret shows a prototype longer gun.
Note that if the bigger turret was for the 283mm gun than that means a /64 or /65 long barrel!
Click to expand...
alexi said:
Tzoli said:
The 28cm labelled twin and triple turret drawings shows a 16-16,1m long barrel (With the breech mechanism) which is good for the 14,815m long barrel of the actual Deutschlands (Projectile lengths was 1.047 and 1.188mm APC and HE)
That other drawing shows a barrel length of 20,1-20,2m with the breech mechanism. A 305mm/60 gun should be 18,3m long with the added breech mechanism that is good for 20 meters (The 305mm shell for the 30,5cm/56 SK C/39 gun was 1.4950mm long) that is why I think that drawing is for the bigger, 305mm armed Zenker design's turret.
Click to expand...
Good eye, honestly i didn't noticed first one have barrel length have over 14 meters long and barbatte diameter too also different between two, the rest seems match 28.3cm gun length though.
Click to expand...
I looked at the C/26Le and found that if you divide by 380 instead of 305 you get rather close to 52 calibers. I believe this to be a 38cm gun, as it would be far too long for a 30.5cm in most situations (65 caliber). Even as far as WW1 the Germans were using O/A length to calculate caliber barrel length.
I would like to mention, as I was informed by a friend, that the Deutschland preliminary designs did take into consideration 38cm guns. I believe this to be a potential candidate sketch for such a thing.
Otherwise this is a very oddly long 30.5cm. I don't discount the idea that it would be a 30.5cm, but...y'know.

I've discounted 35cm, so our options, really, are:
- 30.5cm/65.
- 38cm/52.

It's a bit odd, because all the rest are 28cm guns.
Not that I'm entirely opposed..."SK C/34f" and "SK C/34e" are entirely separate calibers, after all.

Additional note:
Slight correction, the turrets are different sizes (the C26 being larger) but the gun is absolutely massive regardless.
 
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ALCON,

The Primary Documents folder for Germany has been updated and I've implemented a few new things here and there for you to look at. No doubt some things you will find interesting.

I'm interested to see where these plans will eventually end up.

Germany - Sarcasticat's Home :) - Google Drive

drive.google.com drive.google.com

If anyone can tell if there is a difference in caliber between the SK C/34f, g, and h, you get the golden cookie because I cannot figure it out.

P.S.: Will be moving a bunch of plans over from the RM 25 folder to their respective new homes as soon as possible. If you cannot find a ship plan, or want more, you're sure to find it in the RM 25 folder.
 
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I only recalled 38cm considering for a slow monitor type in line with panzerschiff preliminaries.
_Sarcasticat_ said:
If anyone can tell if there is a difference in caliber between the SK C/34f, g, and h, you get the golden cookie because I cannot figure it out.
Click to expand...
Either the barrel too long or breech bulk too short... my guess. But C/34 h is possibly 42cm guns or potential L/54, L/55 or /56 caliber?

Let try to measure C/26e with C/34 model D, i noticed there's some similarity between two turrets, perhaps its 38cm?
https://imgur.com/99ztOIQ
 
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alexi said:
I only recalled 38cm considering for a slow monitor type in line with panzerschiff preliminaries.
_Sarcasticat_ said:
If anyone can tell if there is a difference in caliber between the SK C/34f, g, and h, you get the golden cookie because I cannot figure it out.
Click to expand...
Either the barrel too long or breech bulk too short... my guess. But C/34 h is possibly 42cm guns or potential L/54, L/55 or /56 caliber?

Let try to measure C/26e with C/34 model D, i noticed there's some similarity between two turrets, perhaps its 38cm?
https://imgur.com/99ztOIQ
Click to expand...
If I recall my attempted measurements gave me something like 45 calibers with 42cm where it should be 48 calibers IIRC. Maybe 'h' is supposed to be a production run of 42cm instead of boring out the 40.6cm. I do not think it would be too wild to believe, though, that the caliber may be L/54, 55, or 56. They've all been considered before.

C/34d does come before C/34e, which is Bismarck/Tirpitz's 38cm guns, so I do believe it is 38cm. If C/26e and C/34d have such similarities, all the better.
 
In case if you need further help, ask these gentlemen on this forum, i used this few years ago helping my researches on Scharnhorst preliminaries and looking several German late ww-1 projects.
 
Ahh you were right!
Zenker proposed a wider range of armaments for his designs:
For the cruisers: 209mm (21cm), 283mm (28cm), 305mm and 380mm
For the monitor 35cm
For the Battlecruiser: 305mm!

Since navweaps transferred to the tapatalk forums this thread was not fixed for the html and BB codes hence difficult to read but it has all the info you can collect freely on the internet:
www.tapatalk.com

NavWeaps Forums-Admiral Zenker's warship design's

After spending weeks searching the internet I finally found what we are looking for in a book that was sitting on my own book shelf: Breyer’s Battle
www.tapatalk.com www.tapatalk.com

Do somebody know which book contains these info to begin with?
 
Colonial-Marine said:
Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.
Click to expand...
Wargaming... The claimED that their designs are based on historical plans long ago. By now, they long stopped to care.
 
Consider the curved shape of the front of the turret，Maybe an earlier design，like L20 or GK xxxx
 
_Sarcasticat_ said:
Tzoli said:
Seems like I've got the wrong barrel length for the Zenker 305mm armed designs. Instead of /55 calibre they would had /60 calibre or this twin turret shows a prototype longer gun.
Note that if the bigger turret was for the 283mm gun than that means a /64 or /65 long barrel!
Click to expand...
alexi said:
Tzoli said:
The 28cm labelled twin and triple turret drawings shows a 16-16,1m long barrel (With the breech mechanism) which is good for the 14,815m long barrel of the actual Deutschlands (Projectile lengths was 1.047 and 1.188mm APC and HE)
That other drawing shows a barrel length of 20,1-20,2m with the breech mechanism. A 305mm/60 gun should be 18,3m long with the added breech mechanism that is good for 20 meters (The 305mm shell for the 30,5cm/56 SK C/39 gun was 1.4950mm long) that is why I think that drawing is for the bigger, 305mm armed Zenker design's turret.
Click to expand...
Good eye, honestly i didn't noticed first one have barrel length have over 14 meters long and barbatte diameter too also different between two, the rest seems match 28.3cm gun length though.
Click to expand...
I looked at the C/26Le and found that if you divide by 380 instead of 305 you get rather close to 52 calibers. I believe this to be a 38cm gun, as it would be far too long for a 30.5cm in most situations (65 caliber). Even as far as WW1 the Germans were using O/A length to calculate caliber barrel length.
I would like to mention, as I was informed by a friend, that the Deutschland preliminary designs did take into consideration 38cm guns. I believe this to be a potential candidate sketch for such a thing.
Otherwise this is a very oddly long 30.5cm. I don't discount the idea that it would be a 30.5cm, but...y'know.

I've discounted 35cm, so our options, really, are:
- 30.5cm/65.
- 38cm/52.

It's a bit odd, because all the rest are 28cm guns.
Not that I'm entirely opposed..."SK C/34f" and "SK C/34e" are entirely separate calibers, after all.

Additional note:
Slight correction, the turrets are different sizes (the C26 being larger) but the gun is absolutely massive regardless.
Click to expand...

You seem to be correct on that. Checking it with the turret of Bismarck and apart from this drawing's guns a bit shorter, the turret is basically the same sized as that of Bismarck's 38cm twin!

Now the only designs I know of from the Zenker series to carry twin 38cm were Design II/10 and the Type A!
 
Tzoli said:
_Sarcasticat_ said:
Tzoli said:
-SNIP-
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
You seem to be correct on that. Checking it with the turret of Bismarck and apart from this drawing's guns a bit shorter, the turret is basically the same sized as that of Bismarck's 38cm twin!

Now the only designs I know of from the Zenker series to carry twin 38cm were Design II/10 and the Type A!
Click to expand...
I think we have the genesis for the 38cm/52's development.
I was always curious about what caliber Zenker's battlecruiser was actually supposed to have, but it seems that I now know! 55 calibers, just like the 15cm/55.
Guess we need to find it now, unless someone has it.
Tzoli said:
Since navweaps transferred to the tapatalk forums this thread was not fixed for the html and BB codes hence difficult to read but it has all the info you can collect freely on the internet:
www.tapatalk.com

NavWeaps Forums-Admiral Zenker's warship design's

After spending weeks searching the internet I finally found what we are looking for in a book that was sitting on my own book shelf: Breyer’s Battle
www.tapatalk.com www.tapatalk.com

Do somebody know which book contains these info to begin with?
Click to expand...
Some good info indeed.
It appears to be Siegfried Breyer's book Battleships and Battlecruisers 1905-1970 (1974). I just ordered it. Guess I'll find out exactly what can be garnered from it in a few months from now.


Now that it appears the question of the turrets has been resolved in large part, there are a multitude of other things that would be interesting to discuss and find more information on.

For example, I've been trying to find information on German AA weapons pretty much since 2018.
Detailed information on things like the 3cm/44 MK 103 and 3cm/73 MK 303. (By this I mean actual primary documents, preferably.)
Also have this, which I know basically nothing about:

 
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10,5cm/52 SK C/36?
An 1936 design gun in an 1942 mounting? Shouldn't hat mean that the gun actually built???
 
cattalonX said:
Consider the curved shape of the front of the turret，Maybe an earlier design，like L20 or GK xxxx
Click to expand...
All Zenker project warship sketches till 1927 showed world war I turret designs, although it might be early on, the later like Panzerschiff "A" have very steep rear roof matching the curve of C/26 and C/27 turret plans.
Am interested about Grosskampschiffe obscure studies, the guys on German forum said that it appears the committee have tested with triple and quadruple turrets layout, alongside with further changes to machinery arrangements, improve armor protection against long range. The documents about them is on bunderachiv (Imperial navy sections), sadly have to be order to see it.
 
Tzoli said:
10,5cm/52 SK C/36?
An 1936 design gun in an 1942 mounting? Shouldn't hat mean that the gun actually built???
Click to expand...
It's a bit of a mystery. The gun might have been prototyped in 1936, and there are a few experimental pieces dating from that year - the 3.7cm SK C/36 and perhaps the 53.3cm gun too.
I want to say it's a 10.5cm Flak 38 in a different mounting but I can say with about 0 certainty that is the case. For instance, the Flak 38 is already in the KM as the SK C/33. They already share a lot of similarities - even down to the rifling - the only major difference being the length of the barrel going to a full 65 calibers for the SK C/33.
Not that the Flak 38 wasn't used afloat, see the AA ship Nymphe, but I'm a little dubious...and that's before the issue of the caliber being L/52. The length of bore for the Flak 38 is L/52-ish, but not the overall weapon.
More worryingly, if that scale is correct, this is actually a 65-caliber weapon. I've verified and double verified and just now triple verified and this is for sure a 65-odd caliber weapon. As previously stated, the Flak 38 isn't a 65 caliber weapon. It does have a 52(.7)-caliber bore length and it is a 1936 construction weapon, but again there's no surefire way to tell that it is a Flak 38.

If it, for some reason, is a Flak 38, the only reason I could tell that they might even consider this weapon is that it already exists in numbers ahead of the competitor design, the 10.5cm/48-caliber KM44. Although there is no doubt the KM44 was prototyped and planned for a large number of small-craft projects (biggest being the Ftb 1942, 1941A, and 1944) it appears that their production was not a priority to the point that it never got off the ground despite the fact an entire twin mount was constructed and also prototyped. Sources that mention this weapon also say it was intended for the Flottentorpedoboot 1944, but it appears that this swiftly became not the case as the actual drawings for the ship have what is very obviously this "10.5cm/52 SK C/36" weapon. Why? Procurement issues? Weight? The SK C/36 does not appear to have the triaxial stabilization of the KM44 - or any other fancy bells and whistles, for that matter.

So it's a mystery at large for a gun apparently from 1936 (note this is likely the year that the design process began) with a mount from 1942 placed intended for vessels very late in the war.
 
I know the site, you can even find full Grosskampschiffs plans on bunderachiv, they also have a bunch of heavily edited/redesign proposal designated as "L30" and "L31" fast-battleship (most of spec data are handwriting... terrible handwriting, including a rough sketch showed rearranged machinery layout).
 
alexi said:
I know the site, you can even find full Grosskampschiffs plans on bunderachiv, they also have a bunch of heavily edited/redesign proposal designated as "L30" and "L31" fast-battleship (most of spec data are handwriting... terrible handwriting, including a rough sketch showed rearranged machinery layout).
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Could you gather some of these BDA plans if you don't already have them?
Tzoli said:
You can find the GK series here:

I will check home if I have the higher resolution versions.
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Mmm yeah TDP has been very useful to me, especially since they have plans for Kreuzer M.
 
I'll upload them later, but admittedly you probably won't find anything useful beside some handwriting, there are only few redesigned sketches, part of me want to access Grosskampschiff plans with triple and quadruple turrets documents... no digital scans, arghhh!!!

Updates: it appear i got "L30" and "L31" wrong, they simply redesigned from L20~ series fast battleship not related to Grosskampschiffes.
 
This might be of some interest:
German Project 177 light cruiser design (Trough the Dutch IvS Design Bureau) an offer for China from 1929
3x3 15cm (text says 6" but turret is very German)
4x1 3" (likely French 76mm gun or an unknown Krupp export weapon or actually a 88mm FLaK)
4x2 2pdr (likely the 40mm Vickers Mark II, or maybe but unlikely the 37mm SK C/30)
2x3 21" TT

https://imgur.com/326wtkn
View: https://i.imgur.com/326wtkn.png

https://imgur.com/Zw9S76Q
View: https://i.imgur.com/Zw9S76Q.png

https://imgur.com/jCkzEE9
View: https://i.imgur.com/jCkzEE9.png

https://imgur.com/MFgzq0n
View: https://i.imgur.com/MFgzq0n.png

https://imgur.com/mAHOtj6
View: https://i.imgur.com/mAHOtj6.png

https://imgur.com/I0ewd7R
View: https://i.imgur.com/I0ewd7R.png


What is interesting that the 15cm guns look rather short compared to the turret.
They don't seems to be the usual 15cm/61 SK C/25 guns
 
Tzoli said:
This might be of some interest:
German Project 177 light cruiser design (Trough the Dutch IvS Design Bureau) an offer for China from 1929
3x3 15cm (text says 6" but turret is very German)
4x1 3" (likely French 76mm gun or an unknown Krupp export weapon or actually a 88mm FLaK)
4x2 2pdr (likely the 40mm Vickers Mark II, or maybe but unlikely the 37mm SK C/30)
2x3 21" TT

https://imgur.com/326wtkn
View: https://i.imgur.com/326wtkn.png

https://imgur.com/Zw9S76Q
View: https://i.imgur.com/Zw9S76Q.png

https://imgur.com/jCkzEE9
View: https://i.imgur.com/jCkzEE9.png

https://imgur.com/MFgzq0n
View: https://i.imgur.com/MFgzq0n.png

https://imgur.com/mAHOtj6
View: https://i.imgur.com/mAHOtj6.png

https://imgur.com/I0ewd7R
View: https://i.imgur.com/I0ewd7R.png


What is interesting that the 15cm guns look rather short compared to the turret.
They don't seems to be the usual 15cm/61 SK C/25 guns
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You can find these images within the Library. They were put there by @Kingpin6100. I don't exactly want to move them, but I do realize they could go into the German folder.
And yes, these turrets are very weird. They have a very WW1-esque style to them. They may also be 15cm/55 SK C/28 based on the year of the design.
alexi said:
I'll upload them later, but admittedly you probably won't find anything useful beside some handwriting, there are only few redesigned sketches, part of me want to access Grosskampschiff plans with triple and quadruple turrets documents... no digital scans, arghhh!!!

Updates: it appear i got "L30" and "L31" wrong, they simply redesigned from L20~ series fast battleship not related to Grosskampschiffes.
Click to expand...
No digital scans? Agh.

L20's are still within my realm of interest - I haven't forgotten the Reichmarine and Kriegsmarine's older counterpart in the slightest. In they can go, and for anything else we can find.
 
I found a bunch of sketches of 12.7/12.8cm DP in various mountings, various caliber length too, L/48,51.7,52,53,54..., some of them have axial mechanism similar to 10.5cm/65, other have full barbattes, land-mounting but with shell hoists and semi-automic loader, but for KM/40? no luck (there's 12.7cm/61 flak mount though).

The real struggles here are finding obscure files and documents in the unnamed scan sections.
 
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I think that 12,7cm/61 should be the KM40 gun
 
I came across this publication MANY years ago after reading Siegfried Breyers Battleships and Battecruisers 1905-1970. It was referred to in a footnote "Forstmeir, Deutsche Grosskampfshiffe 1915-1918. Die Entwicklung der Typefrage in erston Weltkrieg (published by J.F.Lehmanns Verla, Munich, 1970).
I have attached a zipped file, which hopefully members will be able to open as the original pdf scan is too large to upload.
I managed to obtain a copy via an inter-library loan system in the UK, and photo-copied (xeroxed) the main data pages, regrettably not much else. Apologies that the text is all in German, but, and with Breyers tome, it is fairly easy to understand the actual ship specifications. Any text, regrettably I have not, as yet, got around to trying to translate.
 

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Here are the original file sizes of the triple 203mm turrets.
 

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SARG12 said:
_Sarcasticat_ said:
L20 по-прежнему находятся в сфере моего интереса
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You may have already seen these, but I'll post them here). L20 and 24
https://imgur.com/a/yKuhYVv
View: https://imgur.com/a/yKuhYVv
Click to expand...
I'll take anything not actively in the Library, if you've got it.
alexi said:
I found a bunch of sketches of 12.7/12.8cm DP in various mountings, various caliber length too, L/48,51.7,52,53,54..., some of them have axial mechanism similar to 10.5cm/65, other have full barbattes, land-mounting but with shell hoists and semi-automic loader, but for KM/40? no luck (there's 12.7cm/61 flak mount though).

The real struggles here are finding obscure files and documents in the unnamed scan sections.
Click to expand...
German DD's are my favorite, and I've been searching for the navalized Flakzwilling 40 and associated 12.8cm mounts/turrets forever. Could you post whatever you have regarding those?
alexi said:
Cross cut sections of 35.5cm triple turret from BB "Idaho".
View attachment 673260
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Mmm, Sirene found this one a while ago, but this is a much higher quality image. I kinda forgot it even existed. I'll put it in the Library.
Tzoli said:
Here are the original file sizes of the triple 203mm turrets.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, this too.
Pirate Pete said:
I came across this publication MANY years ago after reading Siegfried Breyers Battleships and Battecruisers 1905-1970. It was referred to in a footnote "Forstmeir, Deutsche Grosskampfshiffe 1915-1918. Die Entwicklung der Typefrage in erston Weltkrieg (published by J.F.Lehmanns Verla, Munich, 1970).
I have attached a zipped file, which hopefully members will be able to open as the original pdf scan is too large to upload.
I managed to obtain a copy via an inter-library loan system in the UK, and photo-copied (xeroxed) the main data pages, regrettably not much else. Apologies that the text is all in German, but, and with Breyers tome, it is fairly easy to understand the actual ship specifications. Any text, regrettably I have not, as yet, got around to trying to translate.
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Nice, thank you. Every bit counts.
 
I may have to do later, kinda bored lately, as for 12.7cm, the last four have no digital scans (probably that's where 12.7 KM40 mount contains or another unknown flak designs).

Since Sirene familiar with bunderachiv, but i don't know if he ever made contacts and orders these copies from archives, maybe you should ask him?
 
alexi said:
I may have to do later, kinda bored lately, as for 12.7cm, the last four have no digital scans (probably that's where 12.7 KM40 mount contains or another unknown flak designs).

Since Sirene familiar with bunderachiv, but i don't know if he ever made contacts and orders these copies from archives, maybe you should ask him?
Click to expand...
Usually Sirene does what we do - searching and poking our way through. Do you happen to have the numbers? RM 24/???
 
What do you think which is the mount for the KM40? I using mobile phone now and imgur's mobile browser drastically reduces quality though it shows normal on PC
 
None? the only open mount platform kinda like to KM40 was 12.7cm L/61.7 twin flak (is on page 9), but it have shell hoists, KM/40 has to be loaded by hand if i recall.
 
Let's see what turrets you guys provided drawings for:
Twin 53cm/52 Gerät 36
Triple and 3x types of quad (4x1, 2-2, 1-2-1) 40,6cm/52 SK C/34
Twin 38cm/52 SK C/26?
Twin 30,5cm/55 SK C/26?
Multiple Twin 28cm/55 SK C/26? or 28cm/52 SK C/28?
Triple 20,3cm/60 SK C/34
And these 12,8cm mounts you recently posted

So we still lack the 21cm twin turret for the Zenker I/10 heavy cruiser and the various single and twin turrets of the secondary 15cm guns for the Zenker designs? I think some of them had even 12cm DP-AA and 5cm AA guns?
 

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