They're quite different in some areas and what @drwells42 mean is he want the plan directly from the archives but the said plan (very likely in RM 7) which many haven't digitalized yet.
KRIEGSMARINE CENTRAL - KM Ship Plans/Discussion
- Thread starter _Sarcasticat_
- Start date
Note the differences in the midships catapult, and the locations of the 105mm DP mounts. Hangars are different too. I think that Entwurf 3 is more logical.
DRW
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It is also closer to O in appearance and layout. I wish the date on 3 was legible.
I just noticed the 3 hull-mounted torpedo tubes. Very close to O, I would say. I'd say this is one of if not the last designs for P before the swap to O (May '39).
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OK, it only took a month, but I got to my scanner. Here's the H-41 cross section from Dulin & Garzke, pg 321.
Attachments
Check RM7/2359 if you haven't, 13500t light carrier plan can be found here and there are several preliminary schemes with different elevator arrangements, flight deck length and position of trolley catapults, also Wilhelm Hadeler's 19250t carrier data as well which pretty much the Graf Zeppelin.
Here's one of the preliminary scheme show a trolley catapult mounted under the flightdeck in the hangar deck allowing carrier to launch aircraft in a quick successions.
Here's one of the preliminary scheme show a trolley catapult mounted under the flightdeck in the hangar deck allowing carrier to launch aircraft in a quick successions.
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Roodbaard1958!
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I am very curious to see the conversion plan for the Dutch cruiser Hr.Ms. Tromp
Roodbaard1958!
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No problem, thx for response
My bad again, isn't Foch carrier conversion, is PA16 aircraft carrier construction plans (Joffre-class), the said documents are full of photographed ship plans but they're in messy orders (these are either captured or copied plans), two plans for Joffre-class carrier, several plans of Foch (her armor layout distribution, cut-sections hull for turret, machinery, catapults and her hull armored bulkheads), Tromp have the most ship plans.
Sanglune
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I had requested both earlier this year. The stuff that came out of everything was mostly already known. The only significiant finding worth sharing was a Lyon-class which I at the time just posted on my blog.
Source:
RM 3/23509 - Skizzen von Linienschiffen und Kreuzern verschiedener Länder
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio/direktlink/9dd9f440-134a-4c5e-9407-1ce442b759d9/
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Force Lord
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Is possible if you can find any scans of German exported battleships for Dutch navy @Sanglune?
Some scans are available for public, just click on "Digitalisat anzeigen", the only matter if you know how to navigate the archives.
Haven't got the time to read it yet, but the preliminary schemes of the 13500t carrier are dated around 1938.
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_Sarcasticat_
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That 13,500t plan looks essentially to be Flugdeckkreuzer EIV - though more likely a variation, as there are some minor differences. Still very interesting.
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I have 3 pictures of GW 772 from Klaas Meijer's twitter.
There's also B&V Design C from Warship International, N°4, 1989.
Then there's another drawing from WI N°3 1970.
A bunch of pictures of frames that I don't remember (probably attachements with the articles)
And some low res plans from "1915", I think I got them from Maritiem Digitaal
That's about everything I have from German battleship drawings.
However, I do know where they're stored at in the Dutch archives.
Pieces pertaining a battleship tender Blohm & Voss, Germaniawerft, contains 15 ship blueprints
NIMH 057 Losse Stukken 2604
Pieces pertaining a battleship tender Krupp (dust jacket drawings 772 20700t, 743 21300t, 753 22000t, dust jacket with drawings and proposal 806 25000t, dust jacket drawings 806 25000t, construction manual 806)
NIMH 037 Scheepsbestekken en -Deviezen 1904 - 1909
Although I am currently somewhat in a position to go to these archives there are a few issues.
- The archives currently fall under export control measurements due to a certain incident in the east of Europe, so I will have to sign an NDA preventing me from even telling what I find let alone taking pictures like I normally would.
- They currently have technical issues with their depôt
- Even if I could visit, it's still a bit of a jaunt to go there so they're currently not my top priority in lieu of more active research targets.
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Roodbaard1958!
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There was also a Dutch contender for building battleships in the periode 1913-1914. The Kon. MIj. De Schelde, Vlissingen, Netherlands was interested in building with the support of Fairfield. Sadly I did not find drawings at Vlissingen and I asked twice the Scottish university although without receiving an answer. I wrote a small article about the building of the battleships 1913-1914 and the battlecruisers in 1939 and further by this Dutch shipyard, I can remember that there was a model of a battleship of one British company seen by the minister in his room. Sadly I could not trace that model
What caliber main weapon is the H42 here?
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Well done, well done.
That's the only one for now, KW45/50 design plans are possibly in "Protokolle Neubauausschuss" ("Protocols of New Design Committee"RM 20/882 and RM 20/883 respectively) as they were designed by the said committee, do you have the specifications data for both KW 45 and 50? i can provide them.
Torsionbar
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I can't distinguish the number of 20mm guns.
According to the plan, 10x1 (50% less than OPQ) 20mm guns distributed among the ship superstructures (searchlight platforms, hangar and foremast). Red = 20mm guns, Gray circle= searchlights.
Interestingly both KW45/50 seems to be carrying two quad 3.7cm DP guns.
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_Sarcasticat_
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I realized that I had a plan for a variant of the Handelzerstorer. A photograph of an original plan, though I have no idea where it came from and I have seemed to have saved in back in 2020.
I also have a list of 1944-45 (late war) 2cm - 4cm prototype guns and mounts. I occasionally reference it from memory (especially in regard to the honestly quite hilarious 3.7cm Flak 43 Flakvierling) though I have just rediscovered the screenshots along with the Handelzerstorer plan in a search though the old photos in my phone. Unfortunately, there was nothing Dutch-related.
I will post those when I am on dry land again. Maybe a week or two?
I also have a list of 1944-45 (late war) 2cm - 4cm prototype guns and mounts. I occasionally reference it from memory (especially in regard to the honestly quite hilarious 3.7cm Flak 43 Flakvierling) though I have just rediscovered the screenshots along with the Handelzerstorer plan in a search though the old photos in my phone. Unfortunately, there was nothing Dutch-related.
I will post those when I am on dry land again. Maybe a week or two?
lukasgrul
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Thank you so much for help
Are there any threads on the forum or other sites discussing Germany's unfinished naval program in WWI like this thread?
Really hope to see that list! Can you please develop on the "quite hilarious 3,7cm Flak 43 Flakvierling"?
Eagle`s Eye!!!
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Even though this thread was created with the Kriegsmarine in mind, I do not have any problem with WWI or interwar German ships; in fact there is an entire section in the drive for WWI ships. Would not be opposed to another thread, but have no problems with them here either.
As memory serves, it was an attempt to mount four 3.7cm Flak 43 guns onto a modified 2cm Vierling chassis, possibly as a means to put guns on mounts very late in the war. If I recall correctly, the concept either was not executed or flopped very badly, as vibrations would make the guns highly inaccurate (a problem suffered to a lesser degree by 3cm MK 103 guns on the same 2cm chassis). More to follow when I get home.
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I try to remain consistent where I can.
As promised last week on Tuesday, here are the images of the prototype mounts at the end of the war as well as accurate translations from CGPT.
Translation:
48) 3 cm Turntable Twin Mount M 44 U:
WKWCurrently, 40 units per month are being manufactured for 2 cm storage, as the intended MK 303 weapon is not yet available in the necessary quantities in operational form. The recoil absorption is operationally adequate. Tests with high rates of fire have shown that this can lead to failures. It is being considered to install a mechanical recoil system instead of the hydraulic one. Testing and measurements are continuing in the lab with new MK 303 weapons.
49) 3 cm Pedestal Mount M 44 S:
WKWTwo prototype units have been completed, with two more expected in February and two more in March. The presentation to OKM representatives revealed no fundamental objections. Difficulties remain in sourcing the large spherical bearings, which are also required for the pump to cock the weapon.
50) 3.7 cm Flak 43 M adapted for shipboard use:
WKWThe reinforcement of the pedestal mounting has been structurally completed. The strength increase brings about 80%. The sighting arm for the mounting of the mechanical ring sight and two special mounts of type D.Z.C.2 still need to be developed.
51) Device 58 in U-Boat Mounting:
WKWThe design of a twin mount was presented to OKM representatives on October 18, 1944. Further work on this mount has been halted until a decision is made on the associated installation question. The project for this device remains suspended in the event of changed requirements, especially if land-based use takes precedence over underwater use.
52) 3 cm Twin Mount:
WKWThe design of the mount has been postponed several times in favor of other devices. Preliminary construction work began at the beginning of February.
53) 3.7 cm Flak Twin 43 adapted for shipboard use:
WKWThe design work has been commissioned to Dietrich & Koch, Reichenberg, Hoferichter. The work is not yet started due to labor issues.
Translation:
36) 3 cm Twin Mount:
WKWThe design work has not yet started. Its commencement depends on the allocation of labor.
37) 3.7 cm Flak Twin 43 adapted for shipboard use:
WKWAccording to information from OKM, work on this device has been discontinued.
38) 2 cm Flak Quadruple M 38/43 F:
WKWTrials will be conducted at the Dippensee airfield with the first prototype. A second prototype is to be produced, with additional parts being supplied by Telefunken. A valid set of drawings will be prepared during the development of the second prototype.
39) 3.7 cm Flak 44 in 3.7 cm Flak Mount M 45:
WKWThe improvements resulting from the presentation on February 1, 1945, have been implemented and completed at Gustloff factories in Suhl. A second trial unit will be delivered by Gustloff by early March.
40) 8.6 cm RAg 9 M 44:
WKB, WKMThe proposal was approved on February 24, 1945, in the presence of OKM representatives. The separate launch for individual, group, and full salvos was deemed satisfactory, as well as the further improvement of certain electrical components. The order has been placed for 4 units with automatic ignition (electro-mechanical).
41) 8.8 cm KM 41 in 8.8 cm Flak LM 41:
WKB, WKMAbout 20 units are ready for serial production at Mittelstahl, currently stored in Unterlüss, awaiting the start of mass production. These units cannot yet be provided for frontline use due to missing certain parts in the aiming system.
Translation:
62) Oscillating Parts 10.5 cm KM 44 in Temporary Firing Mount:
WKB, WKMThe alignment mount and the oscillating parts will be completed in Düsseldorf by the end of February. The barrel will initially be inserted without rifling. Once two rifled barrels are completed in Tegel, one rifled barrel will be inserted.
63) 10.5 cm KM 44 in Twin Mount L. M 44:
WKB, WKE, WKMThe production of a three-axis test device is canceled. Two two-axis test devices are to be produced: one by the subcontractor Mittelstahl and the other in area M. The delivery of drawings from area M must be specified after relocation.
Translation:
81) 3.7 cm Flak Quadruple 44:
WKWBy using the modified 3.7 cm Flak 43 (ejection of casings and frames downward), it is possible to build a favorably designed quadruple mount. The development work has begun.
And here is the photographed Handelzerstorer "IIa" plan.
Based on the data in the bottom right of this image, this is a slightly different version of KIG BNr. 2472/41 GKds. v. 2. 10. 41, as it is known in Breyer's book. The primary difference is the use of 28cm triples in lieu of 38cm twins, but in most other respects the two designs are the same. This one has about 10,000 more shp/WPS but the weight and speed remain the same.
As promised last week on Tuesday, here are the images of the prototype mounts at the end of the war as well as accurate translations from CGPT.
Translation:
48) 3 cm Turntable Twin Mount M 44 U:
WKWCurrently, 40 units per month are being manufactured for 2 cm storage, as the intended MK 303 weapon is not yet available in the necessary quantities in operational form. The recoil absorption is operationally adequate. Tests with high rates of fire have shown that this can lead to failures. It is being considered to install a mechanical recoil system instead of the hydraulic one. Testing and measurements are continuing in the lab with new MK 303 weapons.
49) 3 cm Pedestal Mount M 44 S:
WKWTwo prototype units have been completed, with two more expected in February and two more in March. The presentation to OKM representatives revealed no fundamental objections. Difficulties remain in sourcing the large spherical bearings, which are also required for the pump to cock the weapon.
50) 3.7 cm Flak 43 M adapted for shipboard use:
WKWThe reinforcement of the pedestal mounting has been structurally completed. The strength increase brings about 80%. The sighting arm for the mounting of the mechanical ring sight and two special mounts of type D.Z.C.2 still need to be developed.
51) Device 58 in U-Boat Mounting:
WKWThe design of a twin mount was presented to OKM representatives on October 18, 1944. Further work on this mount has been halted until a decision is made on the associated installation question. The project for this device remains suspended in the event of changed requirements, especially if land-based use takes precedence over underwater use.
52) 3 cm Twin Mount:
WKWThe design of the mount has been postponed several times in favor of other devices. Preliminary construction work began at the beginning of February.
53) 3.7 cm Flak Twin 43 adapted for shipboard use:
WKWThe design work has been commissioned to Dietrich & Koch, Reichenberg, Hoferichter. The work is not yet started due to labor issues.
Translation:
36) 3 cm Twin Mount:
WKWThe design work has not yet started. Its commencement depends on the allocation of labor.
37) 3.7 cm Flak Twin 43 adapted for shipboard use:
WKWAccording to information from OKM, work on this device has been discontinued.
38) 2 cm Flak Quadruple M 38/43 F:
WKWTrials will be conducted at the Dippensee airfield with the first prototype. A second prototype is to be produced, with additional parts being supplied by Telefunken. A valid set of drawings will be prepared during the development of the second prototype.
39) 3.7 cm Flak 44 in 3.7 cm Flak Mount M 45:
WKWThe improvements resulting from the presentation on February 1, 1945, have been implemented and completed at Gustloff factories in Suhl. A second trial unit will be delivered by Gustloff by early March.
40) 8.6 cm RAg 9 M 44:
WKB, WKMThe proposal was approved on February 24, 1945, in the presence of OKM representatives. The separate launch for individual, group, and full salvos was deemed satisfactory, as well as the further improvement of certain electrical components. The order has been placed for 4 units with automatic ignition (electro-mechanical).
41) 8.8 cm KM 41 in 8.8 cm Flak LM 41:
WKB, WKMAbout 20 units are ready for serial production at Mittelstahl, currently stored in Unterlüss, awaiting the start of mass production. These units cannot yet be provided for frontline use due to missing certain parts in the aiming system.
Translation:
62) Oscillating Parts 10.5 cm KM 44 in Temporary Firing Mount:
WKB, WKMThe alignment mount and the oscillating parts will be completed in Düsseldorf by the end of February. The barrel will initially be inserted without rifling. Once two rifled barrels are completed in Tegel, one rifled barrel will be inserted.
63) 10.5 cm KM 44 in Twin Mount L. M 44:
WKB, WKE, WKMThe production of a three-axis test device is canceled. Two two-axis test devices are to be produced: one by the subcontractor Mittelstahl and the other in area M. The delivery of drawings from area M must be specified after relocation.
Translation:
81) 3.7 cm Flak Quadruple 44:
WKWBy using the modified 3.7 cm Flak 43 (ejection of casings and frames downward), it is possible to build a favorably designed quadruple mount. The development work has begun.
And here is the photographed Handelzerstorer "IIa" plan.
Based on the data in the bottom right of this image, this is a slightly different version of KIG BNr. 2472/41 GKds. v. 2. 10. 41, as it is known in Breyer's book. The primary difference is the use of 28cm triples in lieu of 38cm twins, but in most other respects the two designs are the same. This one has about 10,000 more shp/WPS but the weight and speed remain the same.
Bummer that the below far-right notes have been cutoff, otherwise i would able to track where the plan reside on invenio but an amazing work nonetheless @_Sarcasticat_
_Sarcasticat_
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I will see what I can do about tracking down where this came from. It's not likely given how old it is and the ambiguity of where exactly this came from in my recollection, but I will try.
Dear Sarcasticat, thanks for sharing the list. I happen to have this list too, published in Waffen Revue Nr.113. In page 86 there is also an entry on the 3,7 cm Flak Vierling 44, but nothing on severe vibrations or any quite hilarious quadruple mount. Do you have more informations on it?
_Sarcasticat_
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I must have misremembered. I took these screenshots that image in 2020 and must have confused the information with the vibrations mentioned with the 3cm/44 MK 103 Flakvierling.
The purpose of the screenshots was a search for information regarding the MK 303 iirc, which I was having a bit of difficulty finding information for at the time.
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Here are some more images and translated text.
Translation:
96) 12.8 cm Flak 40:
WKB, WKE, WKM
Burnouts occur on one side of the barrel (upper sector). We need to investigate the cause. For this, a barrel is being sent to the Tegel factory.
The first test execution of the simplified fuse setting machine for single and dual anti-aircraft guns, as a replacement for the motor-driven fuse setting machine, has been completed. Demonstration is scheduled for January 1945. The material and labor savings, compared to the previous version, amount to more than 75%.
Increased failures at the front due to barrel bursts. One barrel burst for every 1,700 shots in July 1944, one barrel burst for every 1,800 shots in November 1944. Cause: Use of Thomas steel in shell production. It is likely that the shell casing is prone to production defects with this material. Cooperation in clarifying the cause and procurement of a test bomb for the shell casing.
Translation:
97) 12.8 cm Flak 45 (Performance Enhancement of the 12.8 cm Flak 40):
WKB, WKE, WKH
The production drawings will be completed by the end of January 1945. Testing of ammunition and internal ballistics.
Translation:
82) MK 103 in 3.7 cm Flak Mount 43:
WKW
The design is completed.
83) MK 103 in 3.7 cm Twin Flak Mount 43:
WKW
Design work is completed.
Translation:
68) 10.5 cm Flak 39:
WKB, WKE, WKH
The remaining drawings for the refinement will be completed by the end of February 1945.
69) 12.8 cm Flak 40 and 44:
WKB, WKE, WKH
Due to the refinement, the supply lists need to be recompiled. Dates for the new groups are set for 20 February 1945.
[Redacted text]
Drawings for the Mount 45 are approved for production, along with the loading platform and the aiming device.
Design dated 15 February 1945. Two test brakes are being manufactured at Bamag.
A design for a deflector at the barrel selection switch has been submitted. A test version will be produced immediately.
Translation:
70) 12.8 cm Flak 45:
WKB, WKE, WKH
Two base pieces have been manufactured in Tegel. Four new breech wedges have been ordered.
Translation:
72) Emergency Program:
In accordance with the Führer’s directive, an emergency program has been established for development, including the following projects that the Rh.-Bo. conducts or in which Rh.-Bo. participates:
Unfortunately I could not find the origin of the Handelzerstorer plan. Perhaps it was in a Discord server I had previously left. Either way, I'm glad to have it, and it indicates there are more to be found.
Translation:
96) 12.8 cm Flak 40:
WKB, WKE, WKM
Burnouts occur on one side of the barrel (upper sector). We need to investigate the cause. For this, a barrel is being sent to the Tegel factory.
The first test execution of the simplified fuse setting machine for single and dual anti-aircraft guns, as a replacement for the motor-driven fuse setting machine, has been completed. Demonstration is scheduled for January 1945. The material and labor savings, compared to the previous version, amount to more than 75%.
Increased failures at the front due to barrel bursts. One barrel burst for every 1,700 shots in July 1944, one barrel burst for every 1,800 shots in November 1944. Cause: Use of Thomas steel in shell production. It is likely that the shell casing is prone to production defects with this material. Cooperation in clarifying the cause and procurement of a test bomb for the shell casing.
Translation:
97) 12.8 cm Flak 45 (Performance Enhancement of the 12.8 cm Flak 40):
WKB, WKE, WKH
The production drawings will be completed by the end of January 1945. Testing of ammunition and internal ballistics.
Translation:
82) MK 103 in 3.7 cm Flak Mount 43:
WKW
The design is completed.
83) MK 103 in 3.7 cm Twin Flak Mount 43:
WKW
Design work is completed.
Translation:
68) 10.5 cm Flak 39:
WKB, WKE, WKH
The remaining drawings for the refinement will be completed by the end of February 1945.
69) 12.8 cm Flak 40 and 44:
WKB, WKE, WKH
Due to the refinement, the supply lists need to be recompiled. Dates for the new groups are set for 20 February 1945.
[Redacted text]
Drawings for the Mount 45 are approved for production, along with the loading platform and the aiming device.
Design dated 15 February 1945. Two test brakes are being manufactured at Bamag.
A design for a deflector at the barrel selection switch has been submitted. A test version will be produced immediately.
Translation:
70) 12.8 cm Flak 45:
WKB, WKE, WKH
Two base pieces have been manufactured in Tegel. Four new breech wedges have been ordered.
Translation:
72) Emergency Program:
In accordance with the Führer’s directive, an emergency program has been established for development, including the following projects that the Rh.-Bo. conducts or in which Rh.-Bo. participates:
- Curved barrel with cover sighting device
- Muzzle control adapter for infantry weapons
- Spring development for automatic weapons (elimination of Swedish material)
- MK 214 A
- MK 108 (increased firing rate)
- SG 116 (3 cm aircraft cannon)
- SG 117 (battery for 108)
- MK 303 Br.
- Device 58
- Device 342
- MK 112
- 3 cm DDLM 44 U
- 3 cm SLM 44 S
- 3 cm DLM 44
- Anti-aircraft mount Device 58 (adapted for onboard use)
- Mount Device 38 Zw. for tanks
- R 50 BS
- R 100 BS
- Taifun
- Flak R 42
- PAW 600
- PAW with high V₀
- Refinement of anti-aircraft devices (Army and Navy)
- Conversion armament and emergency solutions
- Weapon carriers
- Reconnaissance cannon 7 B 84 L/48
- Barrels for propellant mirrors
- Barrels for dart projectiles
- Recoil-free cannon
- 21 cm mortar
- Ammunition for all aforementioned devices
- Research emergency program
Unfortunately I could not find the origin of the Handelzerstorer plan. Perhaps it was in a Discord server I had previously left. Either way, I'm glad to have it, and it indicates there are more to be found.
I looked at all the directories in RM25 and put all the drawings cataloged and if they have been scanned into a spreadsheet. Attached (if it works) is the main page with drawings in each folder and subfolder. Eg for the Flugzeugtager or Aircraft Carrier there is 3 sub folders, and only the folder for Graf Zeppelin contain any scanned drawings.
Hope the file will work, it will make tracking any new scanned drawings easier.
Hope the file will work, it will make tracking any new scanned drawings easier.
Sanglune
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Imagine my disappointment when I requested the scan only to find out it was mislabeled.
