Could you provide the hi-res resource, or the doc serial number in Bundesarchiv?Here's another c/36g, this one have total length of 28150m, longer than 53cm/52 barrel (27700m) and designed in 1936.
Initially i want to upload directly from invenio but the file size are massive, i have to minimize a bit.Could you provide the hi-res resource, or the doc serial number in Bundesarchiv?
Yes, this is the 28cm-SK L/58 C38 V that Breyer mentions...didn't expect to see a drawing for it, though.Here's another c/36g, this one have total length of 28150m, longer than 53cm/52 barrel (27700m) and designed in 1936.
View attachment 718594
There's also a 28.3cm/L58 (designated as C38) barrel as well, i recalled this was mentioned in Siegfried Breyer book (on the P-class cruiser pages).
Was there ever more work on this topic? Are there any dimensions available for the possible upgraded Deutschlands?Hello everyone, I'm back again.
Today's topic is the Deutschland rebuilds. / and me throwing a bunch of diesel engine development at the screen because I can't help but explain every little facet and detail.
/// REVISION UNDERWAY, PLEASE STAND BY. ///
Ah, I forgot. Things have been busy, and I have been finally able to go home after some months, so everything's on a pause regardless. The only thing I wanted to add was to simply explain that the war stunted a lot of the big plans, and the engines would not have been ready in time for the originally scheduled rebuilds anyway iirc.Was there ever more work on this topic? Are there any dimensions available for the possible upgraded Deutschlands?
Although a fascinating subject, I believe this to be in another thread, not on a Kriegsmarine one. Hochseeflotte should do the trick.Hello, I wanted to ask if you could recommend any book or online archive on German battleship designs, preferably from the first decade of the 20th century (1908-1911).
I am investigating the negotiations between German companies (Blohm & Voss, Germaniawerf, Schichau, Vulcan, Weser, etc.) with Argentina or Brazil; and although I have details of some of the proposals, I have not yet been able to find all the schemes.
In particular, I am obsessed to find a proposal for battleships for Argentina by Blohm & Voss, offered circa July 1909 and called "Design G." Its characteristics were:
- Displacement: 20,165.
- Medium draft: 8.1 meters.
- Power: ~24,500 hp.
- Machinery: Turbines.
- Speed: 22.0-20.5 ks.
- Belt: 230 mm.
- Main guns: 15 (5x3) 305mm/50cs.
- Secondary guns: 12 (12x1) 152mm/50cs.
- Tertiary guns: 12 (12x1) 75mm/50cs.
- Torpedo launchers: 4 (4x1) ~533mm tt.
Thank you very much for your attention. regards.
It would not at all surprise me if they built guns for testing, they do not appear to have been seriously considered for naval application. 42cm seems to have been their limit, mostly at the behest of the Kaiser.Did the Krupp actually build 457 and 508mm cannons?
We give you a boat-carrying boat so you can enjoy some boats while sitting in a boat.Project of a submarine - a carrier of boats and a mine depositor. Circa 1934.
I think these may be from the Mackensen preminaly stages, when the armament options ranged from 30.5cm-38cm and everything between. Only alternative caliber mentioned for the Köning class Ive seen in the publications over the matter is the quriky 32.2cm which I think never actually existed outside theorethical thinking.- Sketch of twin and triple 34cm turret, the triple turret print have the description above comparing the placement of twin 30.5cm turret, indicating this was proposed for König-class as well.
An itherto unknown version of the Type III, with an unknown to me Schnellboote design. No mines, rather oxygen flasks.Project of a submarine - a carrier of boats and a mine depositor. Circa 1934.
Do you have a link to the Mackensen preliminaries?Digitalized files, archives and documents on HSF/Imperial Navy still going fast, am waiting until these get digitalize:
- "Battleship with twin 34cm turret".
- "Fast-battleships, battlecruisers with triple and quadruple turrets" (dated 1918).
- "Study of triple 30.5cm turret".
A fews have been digitalized so far are:
- A 26500 tons pre-design of König-class with 4 triple 30.5cm turrets.
- German Admiralty? logbook on Austrian-Hungarian battleship Tegetthoff including their inspecting, feedback on her triple 30.5 turret (with turret sketches and interiors).
- Sketch of twin and triple 34cm turret, the triple turret print have the description above comparing the placement of twin 30.5cm turret, indicating this was proposed for König-class as well.
- Mackensen-class battlecruiser preliminary designs.
There are other various and scattered files on RM 3/6 and /9 as well, but there too many to put in.
Mines could be loaded instead of boats.An itherto unknown version of the Type III, with an unknown to me Schnellboote design. No mines, rather oxygen flasks.
You are right, those are LMB mines, but not carried instead of boats. They were supposed to be launched through the aft "torpedo" tubes.Mines could be loaded instead of boats.
"34cm S.K L/45"Seems, that we can reduce the number of question marks.
View attachment 720717
"34cm S.S.../45"
still not quite clear
View attachment 720718
I'm leaning to "30,5cm Drh. L. ?/11"
Well doneFew days ago I finished a drawing of 21000t aircraft carrier project.
Yes, you will need someone who will be able to search for what you are looking for. Private investigator/historical investigator, etc. Some only go by what's got a number and a name, but others will actually dig for what you're after. They cost a pretty penny though. I would know. Big list? 1k+ Euro.So I've recently been told that the only practical way somebody can go look for plans is to go in person, has anybody been to Freiburg or live near there? How much would you charge to go there for me and look for IX U-boat plans?
Edit: I've gotten word that if I want plans that are not on Invenio, I have to get an employee to get it for me as they are non public...?
I hear that a researcher won't be able to access my holdings directly that they are non public, that only an employee can look through them, which I believe costs an exorbitant amount of money, I believe 200 euro an hour, almost 3 times as much as a private researcher.Yes, you will need someone who will be able to search for what you are looking for. Private investigator/historical investigator, etc. Some only go by what's got a number and a name, but others will actually dig for what you're after. They cost a pretty penny though. I would know. Big list? 1k+ Euro.
Have re-read what M. J. Whitley had to say on the proposed rebuilds of the Deutschland class that was agreed in 1938 and a number of points could be concluded. I'm referencing page 30 of the 1989 publication of German Capital Ships of World War Two.Ah, I forgot. Things have been busy, and I have been finally able to go home after some months, so everything's on a pause regardless. The only thing I wanted to add was to simply explain that the war stunted a lot of the big plans, and the engines would not have been ready in time for the originally scheduled rebuilds anyway iirc.
As for dimensions, at this time no. They're around almost for sure, but they aren't digitized yet. What's been uncovered at the US National Archives is only a tithe of what's actually there as well, so it might be there. Such a thing hasn't even been identified either, so I couldn't even tell you if it's in Germany or the US.
I am now looking at the same source as you, and there seems to be some disagreement for the armament, but it looks like Carls did prefer the 12.7cm DP battery and this most likely would have come to pass.Have re-read what M. J. Whitley had to say on the proposed rebuilds of the Deutschland class that was agreed in 1938 and a number of points could be concluded. I'm referencing page 30 of the 1989 publication of German Capital Ships of World War Two.
The increase in length appears to be by lengthening the bows (which presumably means no changes required to the rudder and shaft arrangements that might have been required it the stern lengthened as well). A more austere rebuild option "if the major refit was on unacceptable on cost and/or time grounds", notes that if that it would mean "the bows could not be rebuilt"
The 15.cm and 8.8cm/10.5cm batteries were planned to be unchanged. The more austere rebuilt suggests saving weight "the only alternative was to remove the torpedoes, saving 45 tonnes because the Fleet Commander would not allow the 15cm battery to be reduced.
The increase in beam may have been the earlier proposed change to the bulges but not clear if a different concept was planned.
Nothing explicit on replacing the machinery - but 50 tonnes added to the machinery weight.
The major refit was approved as Entwurf I in November 1938 as you have noted "had an increase beam and length. This had given very favourable tank trials and shown just how unfavourable the current ships' lines were. It was true this plan would involve more work than the beam [increase] only plan [Entwurf B], but would only take three months more. This rebuild would allow the ships to have improved splinter protection, better stability, seaworthiness and strength, as well as a 2 knot speed increase. Thus the work was well worth it from the technical point of view. Displacement would rise by 750 tonnes, made up of 500 tonnes for hull widening, lengthening and splinter protection using new steels, 100 tonnes for new equipment, 50 tonnes for machinery and a reserve of 100 tonnes."
Earlier on the page there is a summary of what might fit in the 100 tonnes new equipment category.
30 tonnes for strengthening the main motors
3 tonnes for N. V. A. special equipment (radar)
10 tonnes for improved aerials
5 tonnes for improved aircraft facilities [changing the He 60C for Ar 196A/]
19 tonnes for stabilization to the searchlights
20 tonnes for splinter protection to the free-standing guns
The total weight growth was estimated at 71. 2 tonnes for Deutschland, 71.7 tonnes for Admiral Scheer and 76.7 tonnes for Admiral Graf Spee.
Not as exciting as your Umbau-Panzerschiff Admiral Scheer rebuild. Is it possible that the plans you found for the diesel engines, Entwurf II, with the V7Z 42/58 engines, which did seem to fit the available space might have been meant for these rebuilds (with a possible beam increase) or were those engines also not yet designed too?
You should get these uploaded onto Shipbucket!If anybody is interested, here are some carriers that I drew in shipbucket style.