Dig that old style IT technology, the monitors alone look like they are out of the arc!

That film does raise a personal bugbear that is it mentions the importance of satellite reconnaissance in the Cuban missile crisis, yet you get all these history books about that event and they are happy to mention the U-2 but you never hear anything about the satellite side of things.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAB68KaTpg0
 
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By October 1962 the only game in town was CORONA. GAMBIT-1 did not started until May 1963. And everything else - ARGON LANYARD SAMOS - was utter shit. Never worked properly.
 
Apparently 10cm commercial imagining will soon be available with some limitations.


 
That film does raise a personal bugbear that is it mentions the importance of satellite reconnaissance in the Cuban missile crisis, yet you get all these history books about that event and they are happy to mention the U-2 but you never hear anything about the satellite side of things.
They weren't responsive enough
 
That film does raise a personal bugbear that is it mentions the importance of satellite reconnaissance in the Cuban missile crisis, yet you get all these history books about that event and they are happy to mention the U-2 but you never hear anything about the satellite side of things.
Satellites are a known overhead time, and the low altitude satellites only hit their area of interest every so often due to how their orbital path works.

If you want pictures at 9am local, you send a plane.
 
They weren't responsive enough

Satellites are a known overhead time, and the low altitude satellites only hit their area of interest every so often due to how their orbital path works.

If you want pictures at 9am local, you send a plane.
Also at that time satellite reconnaissance was in its very infancy.
 
Also at that time satellite reconnaissance was in its very infancy.

Indeed.

This blog has a nice breakdown of why the Corona images of Cuba that were available were not useful. Resolution was one problem, sun angle another (the Corona mission was timed to pass over Kamchatka at the favorable sun angles, so it was not optimized for Cuba at all), and lack of retaskability (KH-4 shot what it was preprogrammed to shoot, and could not be redirected on the go).


And if I'm not mistaken, there wasn't even a KH-4 on orbit during the Crisis proper. One KH-5 was up at the beginning of the blockade, but KH-5 was a survey camera, not suitable to this kind of intelligence collection.
 
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Indeed.

This blog has a nice breakdown of why the Corona images of Cuba that were available were not useful. Resolution was one problem, sun angle another (the Corina mission was timed to pass over Kamchatka at the favorable sun angles, so it was not optimized for Cuba at all), and lack of retaskability (KH-4 shot what it was preprogrammed to shoot, and could not be redirected on the go).


And if I'm not mistaken, there wasn't even a KH-4 on orbit during the Crisis proper. One KH-5 was up at the beginning of the blockade, but KH-5 was a survey camera, not suitable to this kind of intelligence collection.

Thanks for the link, never had bothered to check spysats in orbit during the Cuban missile crisis, for reasons I mentionned up thread (and yes KH-5 was a piece of junk).
 
Can only imagine the pucker factor those photo Crusader drivers had... "Vne is what? yeah, I was flying at about 30knots above that..."
Watch the movie "Thirteen days" (2000, with Kevin Costner). It features one such Crusader mission, three minutes of awesomeness. The movie itself is very good.
 
Watch the movie "Thirteen days" (2000, with Kevin Costner). It features one such Crusader mission, three minutes of awesomeness. The movie itself is very good.

If I remember correctly (saw it in the theaters once at the time), didn't someone talk to the RF-8 pilot and say he had a series of (23mm) "bird strikes"? Given the tensions of the time, I can seriously believe something like that conversation happened. In fact I would surprised if it didn't. I think in another scene one of the cabinet charaters chastises a USN admiral for one of his destroyers shooting star shells at a Russian ship, and says something along the lines of "don't you see what is happening here? Kennedy is talking to Khrushchev", referring to all the military back and forth. I remember it being a well put together and fairly historically accurate film, but I was super young then.
 
@Josh_TN : the scene comes from a Kevin Costner movie, Thirteen days.

images


Wiki:
While the film carries the same title as the 1969 book Thirteen Days by former Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, it is in fact based on the 1997 book, The Kennedy Tapes: Inside the White House During the Cuban Missile Crisis, by Ernest R. May and Philip D. Zelikow. It is the second docudrama made about the crisis, the first being 1974's The Missiles of October, which was based on Kennedy's book. The 2000 film contains some newly declassified information not available to the earlier production, but takes greater dramatic license, particularly in its choice of O'Donnell as protagonist. It received generally positive reviews from critics who praised the screenplay and performances of the cast but was a box-office bomb grossing $66.6 million against its $80 million budget.

I would greatly recommend watching for anyone that hasn't.
 
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I remember Kevin Costner phoning the reco pilots before their flights, telling them "Don't get shot down, please don't get shot down." As if to not tempt fate.
And of course poor Rudolph Anderson in his U-2 gets blown out of the sky on October 27, 1962 - worst day in the crisis. Also the day when the B-59 Soviet sub almost fired a nuclear torpedo into USS Randolph carrier.
 
All hail some kind soul on YT, that scene is available to watch without renting the whole movie.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSNLeC-eMUQ
Retired Phillipine AF F-8s were used with the F8U-1Ps being mocked up with a couple of the airframes. You see some PAF F-5 tails in the scene where they are taxiing out.

Can't forget the RF-101s did the low level work too.....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 
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KH-11 or something else?

That really doesn’t look like a KH-11, look at the size of the solar panel for a start.

New (July 20) observations of USA-290 (NROL-71), which might be a KH-11 type satellite, but - like USA-338 - is in an unusual i=73.6 deg orbit.


View: https://twitter.com/someastrostuff/status/1822731202807185583
 
Instead, President Kennedy sent his brother Robert to meet Soviet ambassador Dobrynin. What Kennedy had suspected: Khrushchev didn't authorise the shootdown, it later transpired a Soviet Lieutenant General had decided. A deal was made for the Soviets to withdraw their nuclear missiles from Cuba, the USA to withdraw IRBMs from Turkey, and skip on invading Cuba.

Crisis defused.

In my opinion, Kennedy made the right call. I'm not sure I would have lived to reach the tender age of four otherwise. YMMV.
 
KH-11 or something else?

That really doesn’t look like a KH-11, look at the size of the solar panel for a start.




View: https://twitter.com/someastrostuff/status/1822731202807185583
Both the USA-290 images, and previous ones, to me, bear a resemblance to a model of a satellite in the George HW Bush Presidential Museum's CIA exhibit, as photographed by Charles P Vick, I believe. The webpage with the photos is here: https://premium.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/kh-12-pics.htm
The model in the museum has details that line up with other sources of information that seem to tie to the KH-11, such as the following NASA document with information on the Lockheed Missiles and Space Company Bus-1: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19940006353/downloads/19940006353.pdf
On specifically page 34 onward of the PDF. This document also agrees with a couple of scanned photos, captioned as a Bus-1, also on the linked webpage from GlobalSecurity.org
Whilst this is speculative to a degree, it would be understandable if previous images tended to capture a more side-on and front or back view of KH-11 satellites, with the USA-290 images showing it at a more unique angle, showing the parallel solar panels flanking either side of the presumable optical tube of the satellite that were typically not very distinguishable from the central tube in previous imagery. I've attached a couple images of the satellite model in the museum to this post.
 

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To clarify, I believe the images taken may agree with each other and the attached documents, all pointing towards USA-290 and the other identified KH-11s as being identified correctly. I've attached to this reply the two scanned photos I mentioned, and a page from the NASA document, that appear to align with the model in the museum, and, in my opinion, the imaged satellite.
 

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As it says at the end most other countries probably have better ground setups for imaging US reconnaissance satellites than he has so he’s not really giving away anything much. It appears to confirm that the KH-11 has change from a 2.4m mirror to a 3m mirror.

NSF:

At some point around 10cm atmospheric turbulence limits your resolution, using a larger mirror just makes it possible to achieve this resolution from a higher altitude, so you have more frequent revisits.
Also covers the FIA Topaz radar imaging satellites and the NRO’s seeming love of giant umbrella antennas.

 
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Instead, President Kennedy sent his brother Robert to meet Soviet ambassador Dobrynin. What Kennedy had suspected: Khrushchev didn't authorise the shootdown, it later transpired a Soviet Lieutenant General had decided. A deal was made for the Soviets to withdraw their nuclear missiles from Cuba, the USA to withdraw IRBMs from Turkey, and skip on invading Cuba.
Considering that the US was already planning on removing the IRBMs from Turkey before the Soviets were caught deploying IRBMs in Cuba, that was one of the best "negotiations" of the Cold War.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ziT-OKBLJY


Video that compares Kennen satellites to modern commercial imagery sats.
Not sure I agree with the conclusion.

It will still be useful to have a few "dreadnoughts" up there with all the different fancy sensors on a single satellite, in addition to having a huge fleet of Starshield mini satellites capable of continuous watching.

Well, maybe more than a few, if we're talking crisis monitoring. I think you need either 6 or a dozen on 1hr Molinya(sp?) orbits. Assuming a decent slant-range resolution, that would allow you to at the very least get a look from an orbit or two away from the direct ground track. Having more birds means you should likely have one closer to directly overhead. A dozen birds on 1hr sun-centered orbits should give you hourly overflight of just about everywhere important (70degN to 70degS) on earth, assuming that I understand the orbital mechanics correctly.

Starshield can see everything, but that means it needs AI to help look for what's important, while the "dreadnoughts" can be actively controlled, cued by Starshield or by a curious/bored intern at the NRO.
 
What Kennedy had suspected: Khrushchev didn't authorise the shootdown, it later transpired a Soviet Lieutenant General had decided.

I hope that that Soviet Lt. General was court-martialled when he returned to the USSR or at the very least was cashiered as his actions could've triggered WWIII.
 
The high end KH series satellites are going to have resolution advantages. They will still be deployed for more bespoke strategic intelligence on very specific targets. The larger new NRO constellation(s) will provide more general global intelligence that borders on tactical (indeed they and the USSF are already butting heads), and yes AI will be used to sort the data and control the constellation (collision avoidance, targeting priorities). I suspect by end of decade the target recognition capabilities live in orbit, assuming they do not already for larger, more obvious target types (ships, missile TELs, etc). Raw data will still be downloaded as well for more detailed analysis, but there is a huge advantage to near realtime data for relocatable high priority targets.
 
Well, maybe more than a few, if we're talking crisis monitoring. I think you need either 6 or a dozen on 1hr Molinya(sp?) orbits.
A Molniya orbit by definition has a 12 hour period. And a spacecraft that uses it, does most of the "work" up around apogee. It spends very little time around perigee

A dozen birds on 1hr sun-centered orbits should give you hourly overflight of just about everywhere important (70degN to 70degS) on earth, assuming that I understand the orbital mechanics correctly.
Minimum orbital period is around 90 minutes.
 
while the "dreadnoughts" can be actively controlled, cued by Starshield or by a curious/bored intern at the NRO.
Targeting a KH-11 is done at a high level and pre determined each day with a targeting list. it is not done on the fly. Propellant isn't expended willy-nilly
 
Targeting a KH-11 is done at a high level and pre determined each day with a targeting list. it is not done on the fly. Propellant isn't expended willy-nilly
If you've got Starshield giving you real-time surveillance of the entire planet from 70degN to 70degS, you can change the targeting of the "Dreadnoughts" as lot more frequently.

And yes, they'd need to either have much bigger fuel tanks or a way to be refueled in orbit. Probably a way to be refueled in orbit, because I think the existing KH11s are about as big as anyone wants to deal with.



A Molniya orbit by definition has a 12 hour period. And a spacecraft that uses it, does most of the "work" up around apogee. It spends very little time around perigee


Minimum orbital period is around 90 minutes.
While I could have sworn I had heard about 1 hour orbits, I definitely did NOT grok how the Molniya orbits worked.

I don't want the "Dreadnought" reconsat with every sensor known to man only passing over the exact same place on earth every 12 hours.

Once Starshield is in place, I think that the "Dreadnought" surveillance satellites would be placed in lower orbits, maybe a 2hr eliptical, maybe a polar orbit. You'd need 24 of the big things in that case, so that you can point the entire set of sensors at one place on earth within about 15min of detecting a signal of interest. Visible light, whatever UV comes up from the surface, Near IR, thermal, synthetic-aperture radar, hyperspectral imaging...
 
Molniya orbits are basically GEO stand ins for high latitudes, and as such are basically com/ELINT/IR early warning platforms. Usually they operate in threes to maintain constant coverage. Altitude is similar to GEO.

Are spy sats dependent on thrusters for targeting? I would think gyros could alter orientation and that fuel was used only to maintain altitude or occasionally for modest inclination changes to reduce predictability?
 
Are spy sats dependent on thrusters for targeting? I would think gyros could alter orientation and that fuel was used only to maintain altitude or occasionally for modest inclination changes to reduce predictability?
Propellant is used to unload the gyros
 
And yes, they'd need to either have much bigger fuel tanks or a way to be refueled in orbit. Probably a way to be refueled in orbit, because I think the existing KH11s are about as big as anyone wants to deal with.
Propellant load is one of the reasons they are so big
 
Once Starshield is in place, I think that the "Dreadnought" surveillance satellites would be placed in lower orbits, maybe a 2hr eliptical, maybe a polar orbit. You'd need 24 of the big things in that case, so that you can point the entire set of sensors at one place on earth within about 15min of detecting a signal of interest. Visible light, whatever UV comes up from the surface, Near IR, thermal, synthetic-aperture radar, hyperspectral imaging...
2hr would be 300km by 3000km. That is a little to high, 1000km is around the highest KH-11 were at.. Radar and optical don't mix. Also 24 is too many (cost) and still doesn't get you 15 minute response .
 
2hr would be 300km by 3000km. That is a little to high, 1000km is around the highest KH-11 were at..
Ah, excellent point.

Guess it'd be a ~90min orbit to keep things as low as possible? (Dammit, why does the online calculator not want to deal with planetary-sized objects?)


Radar and optical don't mix.
How so? We install radar and optical units on planes all the time. And I mean big radars and telescopes like SOFIA. And NASA puts radar and optical units on deep space probes.


Also 24 is too many (cost)
At some point, economies of scale actually happen. Especially when you only have ONE set of R&D funding and build them all in one go, not stopping and then have to restart and discover that some random part is no longer made and another supplier has gone out of business so you need to commission a replacement part run and re-vet a whole company...

And if a company isn't trying to give you any economies of scale for a run of however many Dreadnought birds it takes to get ~15min max time from Starshield detection to the first Dreadnought getting images, well, time to prosecute for fraud and find a company that will.


and still doesn't get you 15 minute response .
How so? There are 5-6 satellites within two orbital tracks of the point of interest. 2-3 of them are by definition within 30min of that object. Get a slant view of it NOW, then follow it with whatever satellite would be directly overhead at that time.
 
Marco has quite a good blog on revisit frequencies and the nature of the orbits, with calculations of revisit times. You can extrapolated that to show you need well in excess of 24 to give 15 minute response. https://sattrackcam.blogspot.com/2016/03/usa-186-rising-and-revisiting-kh-11.html

ETA: Economies of scale with big precision devices - whether optics or silicon wafers - has never really been that much of a saver. You would get bigger savings using the same amount of material to produce more, smaller optical components, but fabricating large monolithic components is always a inherently costly endeavour - especially when you can't use processes like binning to up your overall yields.
 
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How so? We install radar and optical units on planes all the time. And I mean big radars and telescopes like SOFIA. And NASA puts radar and optical units on deep space probes.

Not on satellites. Lacrosse and Kennen are separate platforms. I would guess the reason is cost. But they also need somewhat different orbits.
 
How so? We install radar and optical units on planes all the time. And I mean big radars and telescopes like SOFIA. And NASA puts radar and optical units on deep space probes.
a. SOFIA doesn't have a radar,
b. Spyplanes are only looking down tens of thousands of feet and not hundreds of miles
c. NASA probes have around 1m mirrors and use the main comm antenna as radar or attach radar to solar arrays.
d. KH-11 has 2.5 to 3 m mirrors and radar sats have dishes around 50 feet.

At some point, economies of scale actually happen. Especially when you only have ONE set of R&D funding and build them all in one go, not stopping and then have to restart and discover that some random part is no longer made and another supplier has gone out of business so you need to commission a replacement part run and re-vet a whole company...

And if a company isn't trying to give you any economies of scale for a run of however many Dreadnought birds it takes to get ~15min max time from Starshield detection to the first Dreadnought getting images, well, time to prosecute for fraud and find a company that will.

How so? There are 5-6 satellites within two orbital tracks of the point of interest. 2-3 of them are by definition within 30min of that object. Get a slant view of it NOW, then follow it with whatever satellite would be directly overhead at that time.

a 96 minute sun synchronous orbit (15 orbits per day) would have a repeating ground track. This means for coverage at the equator (528 miles between ground tracks), there needs to be 6 satellites per orbit for 105 total.

At some point, economies of scale actually happen. Especially when you only have ONE set of R&D funding and build them all in one go, not stopping and then have to restart and discover that some random part is no longer made and another supplier has gone out of business so you need to commission a replacement part run and re-vet a whole company...

And if a company isn't trying to give you any economies of scale for a run of however many Dreadnought birds it takes to get ~15min max time from Starshield detection to the first Dreadnought getting images, well, time to prosecute for fraud and find a company that will.
There is no case for fraud.
There are few mirror companies and few large spacecraft companies (and fewer that can handle large optics).
105 KH-11's with more sensors is going to cost 100's of billions. 100 is not economies of scale, there will be some savings.
 
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