Kaiserliche Marine - Imperial German Navy Ship Plans/Discussion

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Sub-section of what was formerly KRIEGSMARINE CENTRAL - KM Ship Plans and Discussion.

Kaiserliche Marine sub-section.
 
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While we focusing on inter-war and Kriegsmarine era warships, am pretty intrigued by Imperial navy projects, browsing while i found some interesting plans about armored ship/raider, fast-battleship studies (currently looking at 27300 tons, 25 knots hull with 10x34cm, a very aggressive design, but Dreadnought-ish turret layout, this one have unique armor layout), some dreadnoughts with more 21cm secondaries.

There's one scan mentioned twins and triple turret 34cm/L45 sadly isn't viewable.
 
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While we focusing on inter-war and Kriegsmarine era warships, am pretty intrigued by Imperial navy projects, browsing while i found some interesting plans about armored ship/raider, fast-battleship studies (currently looking at 27300 tons, 25 knots hull with 10x34cm, a very aggressive design, but Dreadnought-ish turret layout, this one have unique armor layout), some dreadnoughts with more 21cm secondaries.

There's one scan mentioned twins and triple turret 34cm/L45 sadly isn't viewable.
A scan of this 10 gun design in the offing?

Dave
 
To all:
In the google drive, I've uploaded several RM 6/XX articles of interest.

While we focusing on inter-war and Kriegsmarine era warships, am pretty intrigued by Imperial navy projects, browsing while i found some interesting plans about armored ship/raider, fast-battleship studies (currently looking at 27300 tons, 25 knots hull with 10x34cm, a very aggressive design, but Dreadnought-ish turret layout, this one have unique armor layout), some dreadnoughts with more 21cm secondaries.

There's one scan mentioned twins and triple turret 34cm/L45 sadly isn't viewable.
If you happen to find anything on the Flottenkreuzer (1916) designs I'd be very interested in that.
 
Here's 26400t battleship study with triple 30.5cm turrets.
3PxGINR.jpg

pGaLuVn.jpg


I vaguely recalled one Lesta developer said the sketch of German 30.5cm triple turret somewhere in bunderachiv, no luck so far other than the one of the file talk about "reports on 30.5cm triple turret", have to be order sadly (likely referenced to their opinions about 30.5cm turret onboard Tegethoff-class battleship, wonder if there are possible sketch from that file).
 
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Ohh! The German Viribus Unitis!
Do you know the design date?
It is surely not from 1893!
 
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If you happen to find anything on the Flottenkreuzer (1916) designs I'd be very interested in that.
If you have time, go on "RM 3 Reichsmarineamt Teil 03 und 04 Allgemeines Marine-Departement" search "schiffbauwesen" (ship engineering) go to "Schiffbauwesen allgemein" (general folder), that folder have load of documents about ship plan, possibly never-were projects, i have to found a late 1918 document mentioned fast-battleship with triple and quadruple turret.

Edit: if you want more, go on "RM 3 Reichsmarineamt Teil 06 Konstruktions-Departement" to "schiffsakten", it will show all type of ships and click on "Bau von... - Allgemeines " (construction of [insert name here] ship - general), these folder contains plans, sketch, model, projects, reports etc.
Thank you, it's possible I've been through it but I'll go and reverf.
 
So, its possible that KW45/50 battlecruisers somewhere in the archives, although old WP 3.0 board said the plans are somewhere in US naval archives (the existed sketch provide number file, but the image have poor quality, hard to tell), i don't know if many persons used to browse that forums still here can help me this one.
 
So, its possible that KW45/50 battlecruisers somewhere in the archives, although old WP 3.0 board said the plans are somewhere in US naval archives (the existed sketch provide number file, but the image have poor quality, hard to tell), i don't know if many persons used to browse that forums still here can help me this one.
There are certainly spots of foreign ship plans and data, and I wouldn't doubt that the KW45/50 are actually somewhere in that maze of information and files.
I've already amassed quite a collection of things to buy from there, but unfortunately I haven't seen anything related to the KW series.
 
In case if you need further help, ask these gentlemen on this forum, i used this few years ago helping my researches on Scharnhorst preliminaries and looking several German late ww-1 projects.
 
I know the site, you can even find full Grosskampschiffs plans on bunderachiv, they also have a bunch of heavily edited/redesign proposal designated as "L30" and "L31" fast-battleship (most of spec data are handwriting... terrible handwriting, including a rough sketch showed rearranged machinery layout).
 
I'll upload them later, but admittedly you probably won't find anything useful beside some handwriting, there are only few redesigned sketches, part of me want to access Grosskampschiff plans with triple and quadruple turrets documents... no digital scans, arghhh!!!

Updates: it appear i got "L30" and "L31" wrong, they simply redesigned from L20~ series fast battleship not related to Grosskampschiffes.
 
I came across this publication MANY years ago after reading Siegfried Breyers Battleships and Battecruisers 1905-1970. It was referred to in a footnote "Forstmeir, Deutsche Grosskampfshiffe 1915-1918. Die Entwicklung der Typefrage in erston Weltkrieg (published by J.F.Lehmanns Verla, Munich, 1970).
I have attached a zipped file, which hopefully members will be able to open as the original pdf scan is too large to upload.
I managed to obtain a copy via an inter-library loan system in the UK, and photo-copied (xeroxed) the main data pages, regrettably not much else. Apologies that the text is all in German, but, and with Breyers tome, it is fairly easy to understand the actual ship specifications. Any text, regrettably I have not, as yet, got around to trying to translate.
 

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L20 по-прежнему находятся в сфере моего интереса
You may have already seen these, but I'll post them here). L20 and 24
View: https://imgur.com/a/yKuhYVv
I'll take anything not actively in the Library, if you've got it.
I found a bunch of sketches of 12.7/12.8cm DP in various mountings, various caliber length too, L/48,51.7,52,53,54..., some of them have axial mechanism similar to 10.5cm/65, other have full barbattes, land-mounting but with shell hoists and semi-automic loader, but for KM/40? no luck (there's 12.7cm/61 flak mount though).

The real struggles here are finding obscure files and documents in the unnamed scan sections.
German DD's are my favorite, and I've been searching for the navalized Flakzwilling 40 and associated 12.8cm mounts/turrets forever. Could you post whatever you have regarding those?
Cross cut sections of 35.5cm triple turret from BB "Idaho".
View attachment 673260
Mmm, Sirene found this one a while ago, but this is a much higher quality image. I kinda forgot it even existed. I'll put it in the Library.
Here are the original file sizes of the triple 203mm turrets.
Ah yes, this too.
I came across this publication MANY years ago after reading Siegfried Breyers Battleships and Battecruisers 1905-1970. It was referred to in a footnote "Forstmeir, Deutsche Grosskampfshiffe 1915-1918. Die Entwicklung der Typefrage in erston Weltkrieg (published by J.F.Lehmanns Verla, Munich, 1970).
I have attached a zipped file, which hopefully members will be able to open as the original pdf scan is too large to upload.
I managed to obtain a copy via an inter-library loan system in the UK, and photo-copied (xeroxed) the main data pages, regrettably not much else. Apologies that the text is all in German, but, and with Breyers tome, it is fairly easy to understand the actual ship specifications. Any text, regrettably I have not, as yet, got around to trying to translate.
Nice, thank you. Every bit counts.
 
RM 3/24162 - Entwürfe für den "Gr. Kreuzer 1914" (Designs of Large Cruiser 1914) - dated 1913, if anyone want to check (its fully digitalized), this folder contains a number of preliminaries led to Mackensen, from armed with 34cm, 35cm and 38cm.
 
I'll thinking about it, except Aircraft Carrier B because their massive file sizes.

You mean Stortebecker II fast battleship? S&S is Nassau like hull but long, narrow armed with 28cm and 21cm, i might to post the rests and hoping their file sizes bearable.
Yes. I haven't looked at Stortebecker or S&S in a while so I'd forgotten which had what armament.

This twin 15cm is weird to me. Ersatz Falke was the construction name for SMS Breslau who received eight 15cm guns in place of her 10.5cm armament later in her career. However, this plan suggests than twin 15cm guns were planned early or prior to Breslau's construction - and the general shape of the superstructure around the guns matches that of the Magdeburg-class closely. Perhaps the twin mount plans were labeled 1920 due to their potential use on Ersatz Niobe (Emden) early in her planning. Unfortunately the NIACC would deny the twin 15cm idea and so the 15cm twin never got very far past the earliest planning stages.

(I should also mention that the twin turrets in the Ersatz Niobe plan look almost 1:1 to that of the twin 15cm in the plan provided).
 
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Speaking of Stortebecker (aka 27300 tons fast battleship), here's other draft (more detailed characteristics on right side), i must say for an early 1900~ hull, this thing is quite a formidable beast, perhaps for Kaiser wishes to have a large powerful capital ship?
View attachment 705790
It's one hell of a ship, that's for sure (especially for the time, which I put around 1906-7 or otherwise around the design period of VdT). It's close in concept to the German late-WWI fast battleship (Einheitschiffe) concepts which featured heavy armaments (42cm) and high speeds (24+ kn), but I know for certain that there was always an emphasis on keeping the battlecruisers and battleships separate until that point which is likely why the lighter VdT design was chosen over this one.
 
Here is some intresting armoured cruiser projects from the Bundesarchive (Ive reduced the size of each file bymyself)
First a some sort of preliminary layout for Fürst Bismarck, then a seriously upgunned (18 15cm !) Prinz Heinrich, and set of 1907 vintage of small (~7000ts) armoured cruisers from the era of battlecruisers. I would really be intressed to find out more of these designs, as they go so much against the main trends of the time and the rather sticky Fleet-law based construction plans.
 

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These (armored cruisers) are dated in mid-late 1908, which suggesting they're post-Blücher designs probably.
I would really be intressed to find out more of these designs, as they go so much against the main trends of the time and the rather sticky Fleet-law based construction plans.
Am vaguely recalled Tirpitz (?) wanting a fleet of commerce raiders, which would have been less costly than building Kaiser luxury fleet of big guns since he's not a fan on big spending.
 
Found a 1917 (actually dated in September 1910 in the prints) diesel battlecruiser studies, looks like Derfflinger with AB-XY turret layout like battleship.
 
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Very much related to Derfflinger I'd say, but it has some aspects to it which shows its age and that while it may be related to the class, this derivative study was drawn up quite early (1910 makes sense).
Each of these engines was capable of 12,000 hp and given the number it is expected that this is a fast diesel battlecruiser study. A horrible shame that a study is all this ever was.
 
Any statistics to go with this design?
Typically if there were any statistics they would have been written in the margins, but otherwise such things might be written in logs and journals detailing design histories...no idea if such things have survived this long. I have never even heard of this design before, much less expected a full set of plans like this, so perhaps there is more to it that we do not have yet.
 
Here is my speculation for the recently posted diesel battlecruiser study.
Looking at the design history of Kreuzer K (Derfflinger), one can see pretty much exactly where this design comes from in the process.

But first, as usual, diesel history:

One of the good things about Admiral Tirpitz was his strong interest in diesel engines and his insistence that they be implemented in the latest battleship and battlecruiser designs. From 1909 and until the push for them was defeated in late 1910, diesel engines played a major factor in the design process of Kreuzer K, and the Chief of Construction Department for Engine Installations had been working closely with MAN for a large marine diesel engine; and in late 1909 the RMA formed a development contract with MAN for the construction of a 6-cylinder, 12,000 hp engine. However:
"Six of the engines would be needed to produce the 70,000 hp (52,199 kW) required for the latest German battleships. Given the uncharted territory MAN was traversing, a three-cylinder engine would be built first to prove that a six-cylinder engine could meet the desired specifications. Other companies were also contracted to build competing engines."
The 3-cylinder test engine contract was formed on 28 February 1910. It was expected to produce 6,000 hp and serve as a proof-of-concept for the RMA. From this test engine a 6-cylinder engine would be produced and be capable of 12,000 hp. Of note is the other companies that were contracted, and you can see the work of companies like Junkers with their 1912 diesel battleship proposal.

More descriptions of the engine:
"MAN’s design was an inline, two-stroke engine that used double-acting cylinders. Each of the closed cylinders had a combustion chamber at its top and bottom. Originally, each combustion chamber had four intake valves, four fuel valves, and two safety valves that were also used for air-starting the engine. The safety valves were located at the center of the combustion chamber. The locations of the remaining valves were split between passageways that branched off from either side of the upper combustion chamber. With the exception of the safety valves, the valves for each side of each combustion chamber were actuated by a single underhead camshaft. This configuration had a total of 20 valves for each cylinder and four camshafts for the engine. The final (seventh) combustion chamber design retained the four intake valves but had only two fuel valves and one safety valve (located in the upper combustion chamber). The changes lowered the number of valves per cylinder to 15. Exhaust ports were located in the middle of the cylinder and were covered and uncovered by the piston.

The double-headed piston was constructed of two parts. The lower part was connected to a non-articulating piston rod, and the upper part of the piston was bolted to the lower part. The piston rod was connected to the connecting rod via a cross head. The cross head slid in vertical channels on both sides of the inner crankcase. Oil was circulated through the piston to cool it. The oil flowed up through passageways in the piston rod and into the lower part of the piston. The oil then flowed to the upper part of the piston and down the center of the piston rod. The upper and lower combustion chamber sections were bolted to the center section of the cylinder, and the assembly was attached to the crankcase. A water jacket surrounded the cylinder. The center section of the cylinder and of the upper combustion chamber were made of cast iron. The crankcase, piston, lower combustion chamber, and many other components were made of cast steel. Each complete cylinder assembly was around 12 ft (3.5 m) tall, and the engine was over 24 ft 3 in (7.4 m) tall.

Each cylinder had a 33.4 in (850 mm) bore and a 41.3 in (1,050 mm) stroke. Since the piston was double-acting and there was a lower combustion chamber, each cylinder’s displacement was nearly doubled, as if it were two conventional cylinders. The upper combustion chamber displaced 36,359 cu in (595.8 L). However, the connecting rod passing through the lower combustion chamber took up around 3,021 cu in (49.5 L) of volume. Displacement for the lower combustion chamber was approximately 33,337 cu in (546.3 L). The cylinder’s total displacement was around 69,697 cu in (1,142 L). The three-cylinder test engine displaced 209,094 cu in (3,426 L), and the six-cylinder engine displaced 418,187 cu in (6,853 L). The engine drove three double-acting air pumps to scavenge the engine. Each air pump had a 52.0 in (1,320 mm) bore and a 31.5 in (800 mm) stroke."

The engines are absolutely gigantic, which explains why they can produce so much power with such a low piston number.

The 3-cylinder test engine was first run on 11 March 1911. As expected from such a technology - practically in its infancy as far as marine use goes, and especially at this size and power output - technological difficulties were encountered and subsequently there were severe delays. Worse still, an incident in January 1912 caused by a failure in the engine saw the intake manifolds explode, killing 10 workers. Further delays could be expected and this perhaps damaged the trust of the RMA in this new technology as a whole.

Unfortunately, the aforementioned Chief of Construction Department for Engine Installations (Geheimrat Veith) changed his mind by September of 1910, stating that large diesel engines were "not yet ripe" for installation aboard Kreuzer K. This was no doubt caused by the slow progress of development with the 3-cylinder engine (it had not even been run yet in Sept 1910), but Geheimrat Veith is not incorrect with his remark either. 6-cylinder engines of the required power would never be ready in time for Kreuzer K, and thus were really and truly not yet ripe. An undesirable consequence of this is that large marine diesel engines would only see limited use aboard large surface warships following this decision, ensuring the near-absolute dominance of the steam turbine in the German Navy. Tirpitz's grand beliefs and proclamations on diesel engines, that they would put them "a real leap ahead of other navies", would never see the light of day.

It would not be until June 1913 that the 3-cylinder test engine would reach the specified power output, producing 5,400 hp at 90%. Derfflinger would commission the next year. Work on the 6-cylinder engine would, regardless of the decision with Kreuzer K, follow.

So where does that leave this Study design?

I strongly believe this is a Kreuzer K derivative, drawn up early in development and obviously is the most radical of the Kreuzer K proposals. In 1910, there was still the debate about 30.5cm vs 28cm, diesel and steam, and even whether Kreuzer K should be a sister to Kreuzer J (Seydlitz) or its own design....considerations for diesel as the main method of propulsion would no doubt have not gone beyond the initial design phase.
So, the chances are that this study is one of the early competing designs for Kreuzer K, or a one-off of those supposed to satisfy Tirpitz's mad desires for diesel propulsion. This one is not strictly just some derivative of Kreuzer J Design IVe given the stronger similarities to aspects of Kreuzer K Design 1 and Design 3. The official name of the study is Studientwurf No. Ic, so we might surmise that this is Design 1c and place it somewhere between Design 1 and Design 3 for Kreuzer K...which tracks given that while the casemate is recessed inboard from the hull sides like Design 3, it is still at the weather deck like Design 1, and also keeps the forward and aft hull-mounted guns as in Design 1, yet has a centerline arrangement and a declining similarity to the Kreuzer J-esque looks of Design 1...just as Design 3 does.
At the very least it exists somewhere during the development of Design 1 and 3. That much I believe.

What characteristics can we discern from the design?
That depends on a lot of factors. I would prefer to know the length and beam, which is impossible given the current image quality. I would also like to know the exact date of the design, which may even cause me to revise my entire hypothesis. This is also dashed by image quality. For now, I can play around with the machinery - arguably the most interesting part.
While 6 6-cylinder engines were required to power new German battleships, this design has 8. 12,000 hp was expected from the get-go, and by April 1917 this had been achieved:

"On 24 March 1917, the six-cylinder engine produced 12,200 hp (9,098 kW) at 135 rpm for 12 hours. In April 1917, the engine passed its five-day acceptance test, running at 90% power and producing 10,800 hp (8,054 kW) at 130 rpm."
In 1914, things had been slightly different:

"The six-cylinder engine was first run on 23 February 1914. By September 1914, the engine was producing 10,000 hp (7,457 kW) at 130 rpm."

Shifting priorities caused by the outbreak of war in 1914 saw the development of MAN's 6-cylinder project decline rapidly, and more so as priority again shifted to U-Boat warfare in 1916. Although the Bayern-class battleship Sachsen (and her sister Wurttemburg) had been slated for one of these engines, it was not to be.
Assuming some miracle (typically found in the form of money) allowed the 6-cylinder's progress to progress far more rapidly that it had in this universe, one could expect to see 96,000 hp from these 8 engines. This is not an overload power, but a continuous output...at least for a few days, depending on maintenance/the condition of the engines and a billion other factors. Given that the HSF operated only by short sorties, I see no issue. At worst (10,000 hp 100% output), that is still 80,000 hp - more than what was initially expected for Derfflinger either way.

I'm glad that this design was found. A interesting and unique piece to the history of marine diesel engines overall.

Perhaps they might have been ready for Hindenburg, in a candid world.

Sources:
German Battlecruisers of World War One (Gary Staff)
Dieselmotoren fur funf Deutsche Marinen (Eberhard Moller/Werner Brack)
 
Yes the haunebu is just crazy but everything else looks quite good for me.
The lacking 10.5cm battery, "plated over" 15cm battery sponsons, the general look of "GZ but we removed the 15cm guns"...FzT B would have been practically a subclass compared to something like GZ, assuming what we know was intended for ships later in the class would be applied to B, which is likely.
No 15cm's, period, by design, and diesel engines to extend the lacking range. 10.5cm battery would be no less than 5 - most likely 6 - especially as AA becomes evermore important. The reduction in the AAA battery in this Trumpeter model is weird.
Suppose what matters most is how FzT B's construction progresses...at least that's what I can say about some of the points I've brought up.
 
Yes , I agree with you. The reduction of SL-6 rangefinders and 105mm guns is weird. But plating over 150mm casemates might indicate bigger hangar, or at least I think so. Or when germany didn´t need GZ for original role they would uninstall the 150mm guns to save weight and space for other AA ammo. Everything is only my idea, so don´t take it so seriously please, I am just wondering why trumpeter did these modifications.
 
A small revisit, this twin turret sketch i posted years ago was believed to be 28.3cm, but after some pixel counting and calculation, this might be a twin 35cm/L50 ("49.55") (not exactly L/50 because their rifle caliber length, some numbers are rounded and some aren't), the full barrel length given approximate 17500 meters.
Another reason why i believe is 35cm because the barbatte diameter too big for a twin 28.3cm, the closet comparison i have is Mackensen-class 35cm/L45 which have 9200m versus C/33's 9500m.
 
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A small revisit, this twin turret sketch i posted years ago was believed to be 28.3cm, but after some pixel counting and calculation, this might be a twin 35cm/L50 ("49.55") (not exactly L/50 because their rifle caliber length, some numbers are rounded and some aren't), the full barrel length given approximate 17500 meters.
Another reason why i believe is 35cm because the barbatte diameter too big for a twin 28.3cm, the closet comparison i have is Mackensen-class 35cm/L45 which have 9200m versus C/33's 9500m.
Thanks. Can you repost it to save a search and rescue mission? ;)
 
A small revisit, this twin turret sketch i posted years ago was believed to be 28.3cm, but after some pixel counting and calculation, this might be a twin 35cm/L50 ("49.55") (not exactly L/50 because their rifle caliber length, some numbers are rounded and some aren't), the full barrel length given approximate 17500 meters.
Another reason why i believe is 35cm because the barbatte diameter too big for a twin 28.3cm, the closet comparison i have is Mackensen-class 35cm/L45 which have 9200m versus C/33's 9500m.
I might have argued that may be because of additional ammunition elevators, but upon closer inspection, this does not appear to be the case. In fact, guns of this caliber (in lieu of 38cm initially, of course) were closely considered, as I am sure you are aware. With that in mind, I am certainly willing to accept this new discovery as fact. I will need to change the name of this plan when I am able. Unfortunately, my current situation doesn't allow me to what I would otherwise be able to on a much stronger internet connection.
 
Do you have drawings of the L class designs? Especially the L-20 Alpha?
 

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