KAI T-50 and FA-50 Golden Eagle Thread

What is interesting is both trainers could be used to patrol the skies at lower cost than any F-35. Plus the F-16s, Polish airspace will now have four levels of protection
- M346
-T-50
-F-16
-F-35
 
The M-346 is subsonic so is a terrible interceptor. It's only useful to intercept slow movers. In theory, since the Polish version does not have radar or weapons. Plus they have ordered 16 jets - enough for the role as advanced jet trainer, but not enough to cover other roles.
 
eagle said:
The M-346 is subsonic so is a terrible interceptor. It's only useful to intercept slow movers. In theory, since the Polish version does not have radar or weapons. Plus they have ordered 16 jets - enough for the role as advanced jet trainer, but not enough to cover other roles.
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Plenty enough for airliners, which was my point.
 
Not really. How are you going to catch an airliner if your topspeed is the same, but you also need to climb and accelerate? This has been discussed in the case of Austria ad nauseam with some politicians wanting to save money, but the verdict is always the same: Not suitable, you need supersonic aircraft as interceptors or you might just as well not have any jets.
Besides, this air policing role would only be a peace time role. But for this, Poland has already enough real fighters.
 
helmutkohl said:
flying both M-346 and FA-50s is a surprise.. I could understand if they use the FA-50s as a light fighter for air policing duties, but it seems they will also be used for LIFT like the M-346. why the overlap?
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defence24.pl

Polska kupi 1000 czołgów. Błaszczak: planujemy pozyskanie dodatkowych F-35 lub F-15 [WYWIAD]

**Obecnie nie ma możliwości pozyskania nowych F-16 ze względu na politykę producenta, który skupił się na F-35. Wielokrotnie rozmawiałem na ten temat z naszymi amerykańskimi partnerami. My nie możemy czekać, a dostawy FA-50 będą już w przyszłym roku – podkreśla w rozmowie z Defence24.pl szef MON...
defence24.pl defence24.pl

"M346s have too low of an (training) efficiency. I've made this remark to the Italian counterparts several times."

As I've noted before, it could pretty well be that it's down to M346(the rumors about the deficient ETS and ground simulators could be true I guess? If true, I'm not sure how a M346 fares against its peers, especially when the T-7 gets introduced, since the advanced ETS was sold as its greatest strength in the past) not FA-50.

Also as a LIFT, especially for F-16, nothing beats T-50 due to its flight characteristics. Something something GD/LM as a partner you know... Original T-50 FLCS comes from LM for instance.
 
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According to Korean sources, in the scope of the framework agreement signed this morning, KAI will build a T-50 variant MRO center in Poland. ROKAF and KAI will also build and support a pilot school in Poland as well to support their AF.

ps. One thing I've forgot to mention the last time around is the fact that T-50 variants have a decent maintenance commonality to the F-16, yet another plus for Poland.
 
GTX said:
Maro.Kyo said:
the fact that T-50 variants have a decent maintenance commonality to the F-16,
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What elements?
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I'm sorry that I could not specify the specific parts in question, since that information is unknown to me, but according to a paper(A Case Study on the R&D Programs of Fighter & Attacker Aircraft, published on Journal of the Korea Society of Systems Engineering) by a ROKAF officer and a professor of Korea National Defense University, 52% of the aircraft components on the T-50 are off-the-shelf, of which 74% (so right around 38% in total) are common with KF-16s in use with ROKAF. Such decisions were made in order to minimize dev-risks. Obviously the FA-50s have additional combat related avionics so the commonality would drop a bit more, but I think it's a good thing nonetheless. This was also notified in the Polish announcement.

Some additional information on top of it if you're interested, T-50 was developed with FA-50(or more to be specific, A-50 back then, but the ROKAF operation plans around A-50 changed, giving it a light-fighter role, ie scrambling and stuff which made it the FA-50. As you might know, F-50 proposal on the other hand was a significantly different aircraft.) in mind from the onset and in fact, all T-50 variants are structurally based on A-50 design(for example the FLCS on T-50 variants are all coded based on FA-50 flight characteristics, wing tip pylon structure on T-50s, etc) which arguably is the biggest reason T-50s are as pricey as they are for a trainer.

That extends to the point that KAI nowadays only manufacture TA-50 airframes and add or remove avionics accordingly to make it either the T-50, TA-50 or FA-50(Which seems like a wise choice to me. First batch of Polish FA-50s are Block 10s as opposed to following batches which would be Block 20s, because they are converted from TA-50s on order from the ROKAF. Polish would get those aircrafts first and ROKAF would need to wait a bit more. Block 20 FA-50s would need some airframe changes, eg. bigger heat exchanger and ram-air cooling capacity due to AESA I've figured), which means T-50 variants only differs ever so slightly.

Hope that still helps, although I wasn't able to directly answer you question.
 
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Up to 100 FA-50s for Egypt?

www.aviacionline.com

Korea Aerospace Industries forecasts a market for up to 100 FA-50 in Egypt

Korea Aerospace Industries is looking to establish an industrial partnership for the production and marketing of the FA-50 in Africa and the Middle East, and Eg
www.aviacionline.com www.aviacionline.com

Korea Aerospace Industries is looking to establish an industrial partnership for the production and marketing of the FA-50 in Africa and the Middle East, and Egypt is a strong candidate. KAI is targeting a lucrative advanced trainer business for the Egyptian Air Force, which is in the process of selecting a model by 2023, and this potential demand for advanced trainers represents the second largest market, after the United States, as it could amount to approximately 100 aircraft.
Click to expand...

+ Nice Polish model, didn't know a refueling probe was developed!

wingedhussar.jpg
 
^ I really don't understand Egypt's military acquisition strategies and end games.
I understand diversifying suppliers to reduce dependency, but man do they have so much diverse aircraft
 
helmutkohl said:
^ I really don't understand Egypt's military acquisition strategies and end games.
I understand diversifying suppliers to reduce dependency, but man do they have so much diverse aircraft
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Short term greed mainly, they shop around looking for the best industrial offsets and the Generals in charge skim off the top + rake in prestige. An anecdote I’ve read on reason why MiG-21 and older Mirages are still in service, is because certain Generals flew them in their youth and refuse to retire them. The Egyptian Military controls most sectors of the economy with nationally owned enterprises. I believe Egypt also receives billions in aid from the Arab states to keep their economy afloat? Once the service contracts expire and the contractors go home, equipment is parked to rot….

If Egypt was logical with their acquisition, they could use the FA-50s to finally retire their MiG-21s, Mirages, and F-16A/Bs.
 
isayyo2 said:
helmutkohl said:
^ I really don't understand Egypt's military acquisition strategies and end games.
I understand diversifying suppliers to reduce dependency, but man do they have so much diverse aircraft
Click to expand...
Short term greed mainly, they shop around looking for the best industrial offsets and the Generals in charge skim off the top + rake in prestige. An anecdote I’ve read on reason why MiG-21 and older Mirages are still in service, is because certain Generals flew them in their youth and refuse to retire them. The Egyptian Military controls most sectors of the economy with nationally owned enterprises. I believe Egypt also receives billions in aid from the Arab states to keep their economy afloat? Once the service contracts expire and the contractors go home, equipment is parked to rot….

If Egypt was logical with their acquisition, they could use the FA-50s to finally retire their MiG-21s, Mirages, and F-16A/Bs.
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for me, the logical inventory of the EAF should be either
FA-50s, F-16s and Su-35s
or
FA-50s, F-16s, and Rafales
retire/sell everything else

in this way.. they have the Golden Eagles for light combat roles and advance training. shares parts with their large fleet of F-16s
Rafale or Su-35s to reduce dependency on US parts and build favor with another non-US country.
 
helmutkohl said:
for me, the logical inventory of the EAF should be either
FA-50s, F-16s and Su-35s
or
FA-50s, F-16s, and Rafales
retire/sell everything else

in this way.. they have the Golden Eagles for light combat roles and advance training. shares parts with their large fleet of F-16s
Rafale or Su-35s to reduce dependency on US parts and build favor with another non-US country.
Click to expand...
Nah, they really need some F-15EXs and Typhoons to compliment their MiG-29M and potential SU-35 fleet :p

Egypt, India, and Iran are in a three-way competition for worlds wackiest Air Force; Ace Combat IRL!
 
isayyo2 said:
helmutkohl said:
for me, the logical inventory of the EAF should be either
FA-50s, F-16s and Su-35s
or
FA-50s, F-16s, and Rafales
retire/sell everything else

in this way.. they have the Golden Eagles for light combat roles and advance training. shares parts with their large fleet of F-16s
Rafale or Su-35s to reduce dependency on US parts and build favor with another non-US country.
Click to expand...
Nah, they really need some F-15EXs and Typhoons to compliment their MiG-29M and potential SU-35 fleet :p

Egypt, India, and Iran are in a three-way competition for worlds wackiest Air Force; Ace Combat IRL!
Click to expand...

Or "Area 88".
 
timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Korea's FA50 hits air pocket, India's Tejas may soar with Malaysia Air Force | India News - Times of India

India News: The negotiations between Malaysia and South Korean fighter jet maker Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) for the purchase 18 jets have hit a roadblock, .
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Sources in both India and Malaysia defense industry have confirmed to TOI that the finance ministry of the country has sent back the proposal on purchasing 18 FA-50 jets asking KAI to adhere to the base price of 3.5 billion Ringgit Malaysia. KAI had pegged the price at RM 4.2 billion, way above the Chinese JF-17 price at RM 3.4 Bn and India’s indigenously built Tejas-MARK1, RM 3.75 Bn
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Remaining part of the article is...well, kinda seriously biased, so I think it's safe to say that the quote is the only meaningful part of it.
 
I would take any of the reporting out of India around this with a fistful of salt - remember that they still think the RAAF and USAF are showing serious interest in the Tejas!:rolleyes: My money would still be on the T-50/FA-50 though from what I hear the number acquired will be less then the 18 desired.
 
GTX said:
I would take any of the reporting out of India around this with a fistful of salt - remember that they still think the RAAF and USAF are showing serious interest in the Tejas!:rolleyes: My money would still be on the T-50/FA-50 though from what I hear the number acquired will be less then the 18 desired.
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Indian defence forums and the media are not for the faint of heart .I won't go into the cynicism or level's of gullibility necessary to inhabit those places.
 
AnonSB said:
timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Korea's FA50 hits air pocket, India's Tejas may soar with Malaysia Air Force | India News - Times of India

India News: The negotiations between Malaysia and South Korean fighter jet maker Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) for the purchase 18 jets have hit a roadblock, .
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Sources in both India and Malaysia defense industry have confirmed to TOI that the finance ministry of the country has sent back the proposal on purchasing 18 FA-50 jets asking KAI to adhere to the base price of 3.5 billion Ringgit Malaysia. KAI had pegged the price at RM 4.2 billion, way above the Chinese JF-17 price at RM 3.4 Bn and India’s indigenously built Tejas-MARK1, RM 3.75 Bn
Click to expand...

Remaining part of the article is...well, kinda seriously biased, so I think it's safe to say that the quote is the only meaningful part of it.
Click to expand...
although the article says "way above the prices of JF17 and Tejas".. for 18 aircrafts, the difference between 4.2 billion and 3.4/3.75 isnt that far off. its not like the price gap between say, an F-16 and MiG-29.
I also suspect the FA-50 will likely have lower lifecycle costs.
 
helmutkohl said:
AnonSB said:
timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Korea's FA50 hits air pocket, India's Tejas may soar with Malaysia Air Force | India News - Times of India

India News: The negotiations between Malaysia and South Korean fighter jet maker Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) for the purchase 18 jets have hit a roadblock, .
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Sources in both India and Malaysia defense industry have confirmed to TOI that the finance ministry of the country has sent back the proposal on purchasing 18 FA-50 jets asking KAI to adhere to the base price of 3.5 billion Ringgit Malaysia. KAI had pegged the price at RM 4.2 billion, way above the Chinese JF-17 price at RM 3.4 Bn and India’s indigenously built Tejas-MARK1, RM 3.75 Bn
Click to expand...

Remaining part of the article is...well, kinda seriously biased, so I think it's safe to say that the quote is the only meaningful part of it.
Click to expand...
although the article says "way above the prices of JF17 and Tejas".. for 18 aircrafts, the difference between 4.2 billion and 3.4/3.75 isnt that far off. its not like the price gap between say, an F-16 and MiG-29.
I also suspect the FA-50 will likely have lower lifecycle costs.
Click to expand...
I don’t see where the F404 powered Tejas should be any more expensive to support than the FA-50, assuming the support infrastructure is already in place in India. What does surprise me that the Tejas can be so competitive in terms of initial acquisition costs with that big and seemingly elaborate composite wing.
 
TinWing said:
I don’t see where the F404 powered Tejas should be any more expensive to support than the FA-50, assuming the support infrastructure is already in place in India. What does surprise me that the Tejas can be so competitive in terms of initial acquisition costs with that big and seemingly elaborate composite wing.
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Well India are probably more desperate to get an export customer for the Tejas while at this stage in the T-50/ FA-50 project South Korea may have more interest in breaking even or potentially actually making a profit in a particular deal.
 
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defence24.pl

Polska kupiła lekkie myśliwce z Korei. Umowy podpisane

Wicepremier i minister obrony narodowej Mariusz Błaszczak, w obecności prezydenta RP Andrzeja Dudy, zatwierdził umowy wykonawcze na dostawę lekkich myśliwców FA-50 i FA-50PL dla Sił Powietrznych RP.
defence24.pl defence24.pl

Contracts of FA-50 for Poland approved

According to Defence24.pl, Poland approved 2 of 5 of the potential contracts for FA-50PL.

The confirmed contracts are said to be about the quantity of the acquisition of FA-50/FA-50PL - which is, 12 FA-50s plus 36 FA-50PLs - and the initial training program for the Polish pilots.

The other 3 possible contracts are expected to be about the exact specifications of the FA-50PL, establishing the pilot training school, and local MRO center.
 
AnonSB said:
defence24.pl

Polska kupiła lekkie myśliwce z Korei. Umowy podpisane

Wicepremier i minister obrony narodowej Mariusz Błaszczak, w obecności prezydenta RP Andrzeja Dudy, zatwierdził umowy wykonawcze na dostawę lekkich myśliwców FA-50 i FA-50PL dla Sił Powietrznych RP.
defence24.pl defence24.pl

Contracts of FA-50 for Poland approved

According to Defence24.pl, Poland approved 2 of 5 of the potential contracts for FA-50PL.

The confirmed contracts are said to be about the quantity of the acquisition of FA-50/FA-50PL - which is, 12 FA-50s plus 36 FA-50PLs - and the initial training program for the Polish pilots.

The other 3 possible contracts are expected to be about the exact specifications of the FA-50PL, establishing the pilot training school, and local MRO center.
Click to expand...

There are also another 2 outstanding contracts - first about armament and second about actual AMRAAM integration which was requested but current contract talks only about preparations for such.
 
Remember this article from India?

m.timesofindia.com

Korea's FA50 hits air pocket, India's Tejas may soar with Malaysia Air Force | India News - Times of India

India News: The negotiations between Malaysia and South Korean fighter jet maker Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) for the purchase 18 jets have hit a roadblock, .
m.timesofindia.com m.timesofindia.com

It reported that KAI's FA-50 offer to Malaysian LCA project was reconsidered due to the strict budget limit.

A Malaysian local media says no :

defencesecurityasia.com

Media India Sandar "Maklumat Palsu" Tentang Rundingan FA-50 - Defence Security Asia

Sejak kebelakangan ini, media-media India telah memainkan isu tentang soal harga "yang terlalu tinggi" bagi 18 buah pesawat FA-50 sehingga menyebabkan rundingan di antara Kementerian Kewangan Malaysia dengan syarikat Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) berhadapan dengan "jalan sukar."
defencesecurityasia.com defencesecurityasia.com

What the admin can say is, a source to Defense Security Asia said that the information in the Indian media reports recently about the overall price of the 18 FA-50 aircraft offered to Malaysians is completely untrue and false.
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It also covers other false rumors rooted from various Indian media.
 
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AnonSB said:
Grey Havoc said:
theaviationist.com

Philippine FA-50PH Jets Undergoing Mandatory Precautionary Maintenance

Only three out of twelve aircraft might be currently operational after delays in the supply chain of spare parts. The Philippine Air Force confirmed that
theaviationist.com theaviationist.com
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Philippine officially announced that currently 5 of 12 FA-50s are operational, not 3 - which is better, but still quite low.

The rumors are spreading though, especially around Indian defense forums...
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other news links blamed COVID-19 impacting the supply chain
as well as some of the Philippines internal policies on logistics, which are to be updated to make it easier.
 
Btw the AESA radars in question for the integration on the Polish FA-50PL (block 20) are the Raytheon Phantom Strike and NG SABR. PS is developed with smaller applications in mind and they even used FA-50 for their artistic impression, although still not integrated to the plane. SABR is obviously a scaled version to fit the nose.

compact_AESA.jpg

There are Korean alternatives like the Hanwha AESA based on the KF-21 radar or the LIG LAZER, but there are problems regarding the integration of US ordnance, especially the AMRAAM to a foreign FCR since they are very strict and reluctant with those matters.
 
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From the link above, Price comparison for the 20 planes to be delivered (1RM = 1/5$):

Jet_1_TEM1447_theedgemarkets.jpg
 
^ I dont think Russia offered the Yak-130, but that Italy offered the M-346. It would be wrong to assume they are the same thing, as theyve diverged quite a bit the 90s
 
There's a news saying Raytheon Phantom Strike was selected as the radar for FA-50PL. There's still no press release at Raytheon Intelligence and Space website but I'd expect one soon if the news' real. Phantom Strike's major advantage over SABR is for one, it is tailor made for smaller platforms and for that reason it is air-cooled.

Since they were not able to find any contracts for their RACR, bar Korea which also later turned to SABR, they might have offered more favorable terms compared to NG for their newest airborne MFR.
 

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