KAI KF-21 - Indonesian participation

[RPO Rys]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forums/alternative-history-and-future-speculation.42/

Until verified official statements mentioning such effort exists. (?)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Agreed this is all speculative armchair expert waffling.

 

[Iannendra]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem soon enough.

Indonesia doesn't have the capability to manufacture those 4 core technologies anyway, so that kind of reasoning is kinda BS. Indonesians getting or not getting those are not the goal of the KF-21 program itself, since the original goal for Indonesia is to be able to assembly a model of a modern jet fighter, not saying anything about its major subcomponents such as radar, etc. As for those core technologies you were concerned about, Indonesia should start their own indigenous development program if they really want to master said technologies, not begging for technology transfers as a reason for payment failure.

The reason why we didn't pay it because we are considering is it worth it to continue the project without getting the 4 cor etechnologies or not! So my proposal is the best since we keep continuing the project while also still get 4++ gen fighter jet even tough the avionics were not from US or South Korea. We need to make our investment worth it! So no this is not just a blatant reason!

 

[Iannendra]

I’m sorry if I missed this but why would you WANT to go to the trouble of even trying to swap in Russian equipment, unless you were being denied access to the Korean/ US (or other “Western” - sorry about the stupid general phrase) equipment already “baked-in” to this aircraft?
Why pay more for less?

Believe it or not.

Some of our Netizens have such aspirations. They wish for "complete customizations" for KF-21. This is however a delusional and rather arrogant point of view. Not only unsupported by facts but it completely underestimated common sense in aircraft design.

The story always begin with "We denied technologies bla..bla..bla followed by our engineers are capable of bla..bla..bla and finally We should have more technologies or have right to get more"
It's plain annoying. Especially since there is practically nothing being done here to support those bold claims.

Like.. are we even talks to Russia or other providers for KF-21 ? No. No such thing are done...all talks about Customizations and use of Foreign systems are by Koreans. Who did SAAB approach for KFX program ? The Koreans, not us. Those realites however are unfortunately often overlooked. Another reality being stomped on was the fact we only contributes like 20% and re-negotiates it.

Well if we claim for rights for technology transfers with such amount for shares... How about Korea which hold 80%. Those netizens cannot see that more shares = more leverage.

---

Those would be more believable had we actually make the program a Joint venture or 50:50 shares, having hundreds of the aircrafts booked for productions, actually willing to foster the industries required for it. But we didnt so.. No.

And I think the one who is arrogant is you since you keep denying the fact that fitting Russian avionics into our KF-21 isn't possible even tough it takes money, effort, and time. It is entirely possible too do it. Especially our KF-21 is not built yet so there is still room to do some redesign so we could fir those Russian avionics into our KF-21. I know it sounds weird but if we don't do it, than we will get obsolete KF-21 since we also didn't sign DTSS with the Americans. So our investment will NOT be worth it since after all of this spending what we need is a 4++ gen fighter jet not a KF-21 with obsolete equipment.
So even tough we didn't sign the DTSS, we still get our KF-21 as 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.
Open your mind please!

Mind you I think you are the arrogant one who kept talking about money and hotshid while Indonesia is the one who kept reducing their contribution and kept negotiating for lower pricing.

You want cool stuff, give more money, not less or delaying payment

Dude I explained why we need lower price right now! It is because we are not likely to sign the DTSS with the Americans for those 4 core technologies. So if we keep on the project by paying the current needed amount of money, than it wouldn't be worth it since we didn't get those 4 core technologies that makes KF-21 deadly! So we are renegotiating the price so it would be worth it for us to receive those 48 aircraft without those 4 core technologies. I guarantee if it didn't require DTSS to get those 4 core technologies than I am sure we would have payed it already since like 2 years ago.

Remember that we need to plan ahead for the KF-21 before paying it so that our investment will be worth it. And my solution is the best one since we will keep continuing the project and paying it and while we didn't sign the DTSS, we could still have our KF-21 as a 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.

So this is not arrogancy but rather the truth!

God, have mercy on KAI and the South Koreans

God have mercy on all of us since the South Koreans could have those 4 core technologies while we couldn't.

 

[Sgt_Miller]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem soon enough.

Indonesia doesn't have the capability to manufacture those 4 core technologies anyway, so that kind of reasoning is kinda BS. Indonesians getting or not getting those are not the goal of the KF-21 program itself, since the original goal for Indonesia is to be able to assembly a model of a modern jet fighter, not saying anything about its major subcomponents such as radar, etc. As for those core technologies you were concerned about, Indonesia should start their own indigenous development program if they really want to master said technologies, not begging for technology transfers as a reason for payment failure.

Yes we don't have the tech needed to manufacture those 4 core technologies that is why we need to learn from other country. Now how do we learn it if we don't sign the DTSS? We couldn't. That is why it's better to continue this IAI KFX-21 program but with Russian top-end advance avionics so we could still study from other country on how to make those 4 core technologies and also how to build those planes so that evantually we could do our own indigenous fighter program.

And it's not a reason man! It is the truth that makes us didn't pay on time! It is because we are considering is it worth it or NOT to continue the program since if we does than it would be not worth it without those 4 core technologies! That is why I propose to keep still continue and pay for the KF-21 fighter program but with Russian top-end avionics so that we would still get the 4++ gen fighter jet and not a obsolete KF-21 with older avionics.

I mean, capability as in experiences and basic preliminary research, not only about the tech needed. If your country is really desperate about getting such hi-tech avionics, then they should start their own research just like what Koreans did in the last 20 years. Koreans are actually developing their own indigenous hi-tech avionics while the foreign parties just assisting them a little bit. Indonesia shouldn't be leeching to this program while begging for lesser contribution. That's just plain extortion for the Koreans IMO.

The mindset of always paying less for getting more won't work for Russia either, pal. India has paid a really big sum of money just to partially localized their Sukhoi's avionics, while the hi-tech ones like radar and IRST are still made in Russia. Your solution simply won't work, due to that stingy mindset of yours.

 

[Iannendra]

I’m sorry if I missed this but why would you WANT to go to the trouble of even trying to swap in Russian equipment, unless you were being denied access to the Korean/ US (or other “Western” - sorry about the stupid general phrase) equipment already “baked-in” to this aircraft?
Why pay more for less?

Believe it or not.

Some of our Netizens have such aspirations. They wish for "complete customizations" for KF-21. This is however a delusional and rather arrogant point of view. Not only unsupported by facts but it completely underestimated common sense in aircraft design.

The story always begin with "We denied technologies bla..bla..bla followed by our engineers are capable of bla..bla..bla and finally We should have more technologies or have right to get more"
It's plain annoying. Especially since there is practically nothing being done here to support those bold claims.

Like.. are we even talks to Russia or other providers for KF-21 ? No. No such thing are done...all talks about Customizations and use of Foreign systems are by Koreans. Who did SAAB approach for KFX program ? The Koreans, not us. Those realites however are unfortunately often overlooked. Another reality being stomped on was the fact we only contributes like 20% and re-negotiates it.

Well if we claim for rights for technology transfers with such amount for shares... How about Korea which hold 80%. Those netizens cannot see that more shares = more leverage.

---

Those would be more believable had we actually make the program a Joint venture or 50:50 shares, having hundreds of the aircrafts booked for productions, actually willing to foster the industries required for it. But we didnt so.. No.

And I think the one who is arrogant is you since you keep denying the fact that fitting Russian avionics into our KF-21 isn't possible even tough it takes money, effort, and time. It is entirely possible too do it. Especially our KF-21 is not built yet so there is still room to do some redesign so we could fir those Russian avionics into our KF-21. I know it sounds weird but if we don't do it, than we will get obsolete KF-21 since we also didn't sign DTSS with the Americans. So our investment will NOT be worth it since after all of this spending what we need is a 4++ gen fighter jet not a KF-21 with obsolete equipment.
So even tough we didn't sign the DTSS, we still get our KF-21 as 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.
Open your mind please!

Mind you I think you are the arrogant one who kept talking about money and hotshid while Indonesia is the one who kept reducing their contribution and kept negotiating for lower pricing.

You want cool stuff, give more money, not less or delaying payment

Dude I explained why we need lower price right now! It is because we are not likely to sign the DTSS with the Americans for those 4 core technologies. So if we keep on the project by paying the current needed amount of money, than it wouldn't be worth it since we didn't get those 4 core technologies that makes KF-21 deadly! So we are renegotiating the price so it would be worth it for us to receive those 48 aircraft without those 4 core technologies. I guarantee if it didn't require DTSS to get those 4 core technologies than I am sure we would have payed it already since like 2 years ago.

Remember that we need to plan ahead for the KF-21 before paying it so that our investment will be worth it. And my solution is the best one since we will keep continuing the project and paying it and while we didn't sign the DTSS, we could still have our KF-21 as a 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.

So this is not arrogancy but rather the truth!

God, have mercy on KAI and the South Koreans

God Have Mercy on all of us

 

[RPO Rys]

I mean, capability as in experiences and basic preliminary research, not only about the tech needed. If your country is really desperate about getting such hi-tech avionics, then they should start their own research just like what Koreans did in the last 20 years. Koreans are actually developing their own indigenous hi-tech avionics while the foreign parties just assisting them a little bit. Indonesia shouldn't be leeching to this program while begging for lesser contribution. That's just plain extortion for the Koreans IMO.

The mindset of always paying less for getting more won't work for Russia either, pal. India has paid a really big sum of money just to partially localized their Sukhoi's avionics, while the hi-tech ones like radar and IRST are still made in Russia. Your solution simply won't work, due to that stingy mindset of yours.

If this post is not enough of an eye opener then nothing else will.

Have a nice day everyone.

 

[Iannendra]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem soon enough.

Indonesia doesn't have the capability to manufacture those 4 core technologies anyway, so that kind of reasoning is kinda BS. Indonesians getting or not getting those are not the goal of the KF-21 program itself, since the original goal for Indonesia is to be able to assembly a model of a modern jet fighter, not saying anything about its major subcomponents such as radar, etc. As for those core technologies you were concerned about, Indonesia should start their own indigenous development program if they really want to master said technologies, not begging for technology transfers as a reason for payment failure.

Yes we don't have the tech needed to manufacture those 4 core technologies that is why we need to learn from other country. Now how do we learn it if we don't sign the DTSS? We couldn't. That is why it's better to continue this IAI KFX-21 program but with Russian top-end advance avionics so we could still study from other country on how to make those 4 core technologies and also how to build those planes so that evantually we could do our own indigenous fighter program.

And it's not a reason man! It is the truth that makes us didn't pay on time! It is because we are considering is it worth it or NOT to continue the program since if we does than it would be not worth it without those 4 core technologies! That is why I propose to keep still continue and pay for the KF-21 fighter program but with Russian top-end avionics so that we would still get the 4++ gen fighter jet and not a obsolete KF-21 with older avionics.

I mean, capability as in experiences and basic preliminary research, not only about the tech needed. If your country is really desperate about getting such hi-tech avionics, then they should start their own research just like what Koreans did in the last 20 years. Koreans are actually developing their own indigenous hi-tech avionics while the foreign parties just assisting them a little bit. Indonesia shouldn't be leeching to this program while begging for lesser contribution. That's just plain extortion for the Koreans IMO.

The mindset of always paying less for getting more won't work for Russia either, pal. India has paid a really big sum of money just to partially localized their Sukhoi's avionics, while the hi-tech ones like radar and IRST are still made in Russia. Your solution simply won't work, due to that stingy mindset of yours.

Yeah that is what we are learning from the KF-X program to study avionics and how to build fighter jets. That is why it is crucial to continue the KF-X program and still retain it's 4++ gen status by using top-end advance avionics, but since we couldn't get it from America or South Korea then our choice is Russia.

My solution would work since it is technically possible to redesign some of our KF-21 fuselage to fit Russia equipment, but the problem is how we could learn from this program in order so that we could make our own jet fighter in the future and it's avionics. For the payment it's more easy to regulate it.

And paying less for getting more? What do you mean by that? Explain! We need to pay less because we get less (no 4 core technologies)!

 

[Iannendra]

I mean, capability as in experiences and basic preliminary research, not only about the tech needed. If your country is really desperate about getting such hi-tech avionics, then they should start their own research just like what Koreans did in the last 20 years. Koreans are actually developing their own indigenous hi-tech avionics while the foreign parties just assisting them a little bit. Indonesia shouldn't be leeching to this program while begging for lesser contribution. That's just plain extortion for the Koreans IMO.

The mindset of always paying less for getting more won't work for Russia either, pal. India has paid a really big sum of money just to partially localized their Sukhoi's avionics, while the hi-tech ones like radar and IRST are still made in Russia. Your solution simply won't work, due to that stingy mindset of yours.

If this post is not enough of an eye opener then nothing else will.

Have a nice day everyone.

You are the one who should open your eyes. Have a nice day.

 

[RPO Rys]

I was always bit dubious on how much the Koreans netizens were so salty about Indonesia's contribution to KFX. But now since you have shown me your mindset, now I understand

 

[Iannendra]

I was always bit dubious on how much the Koreans netizens were so salty about Indonesia's contribution to KFX. But now since you have shown me your mindset, now I understand

I was always bit dubious on how much the Indonesia netizens were so salty about Koreas contribution to the Indonesian version of the KFX. But now since you have shown me your mindset, now I understand

ehemm, they want more money but they won't give us 4 core technologies that makes that plane have gen 4++ fighter? Is that fair? You tell me!

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

And... locked.