KAI KF-21 - Indonesian participation

[Iannendra]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:






This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem soon enough.

 

[stealthflanker]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

I am Indonesian too.. and i will say or re-affirm that those technology related reasons are plain BS. For an extremely obvious reason.

We do not have any industries to support them. Are you thinking that the Korean or US will need to set up the factories needed for making those 4 ? That's a plain wrong. in fact the bigger problem is that we dont even have the roadmap for fighter production at all.. No roadmap = No plan. And those technologies requires a mature semi conductor foundries and supporting infrastructure... Now where the hell are those industries or when it will be made ? AESA radars needs Gallium Arsenide production for its amplifier.. where the hell are they ? IRST and TGP also need the semi conductor industry mainly the IR elements like Indium antimonide (InSb) or Mercury Cadmium Telluride... No such thing here.

RF Jammer ? This needs transmitter too and nobody here are making say.. Travelling wave tubes or klystrons. If there any please inform what firm.

and those industries must have a commercial line if they are meant to survive. Thus you see HANWHA, Samsung etc...they make Commercial electronics.. Thus their foundry line can survive even when production of military line ends. Do we have such plan ? i'll be honest i hear nothing.

Such industries have to be created and maintained too and so far we dont have a damn initiative.

 

[helmutkohl]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem soon enough.

how much US content is in the radar since its made by Korea?
anyways, cant those 4 things be replaced? (maybe not so easily). such as say an AESA from France, Damocles from France, etc

 

[Iannendra]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem so

how much US content is in the radar since its made by Korea?
anyways, cant those 4 things be replaced? (maybe not so easily). such as say an AESA from France, Damocles from France, etc

I don't really know about the US content. But I heavily assume it was based on the Lockheed AESA Radar with some little changes.



That is what I also thinks, we could replace those equipment with the ones from other countries. Especially Russia since they are not as "complicated" as America in terms of this export regulation. So we might replace the AESA radar with the Export Zhuk AESA radar variant from Russia, the Su-35 IRST, Russian jammer, and also Russian electro-optical targeting equipment. But the question is wether those system would fit inside the KF-21 fuselage or not.
Can someone here post a diagram or some sort like that of the KF-21 with the sizes of the plane (x and y) please so I could analyze it. Thanks ))

 

[TomcatViP]

Indonesia has some F-16. I would be surprised if those systems are or will not be possibly cross-shared b/w the two fleet. This is why this debate sounds quite odd to an external observator.
LM offered also the Block70.

 

[Iannendra]

Indonesia has some F-16. I would be surprised if those systems are or will not be possibly cross-shared b/w the two fleet. This is why this debate sounds quite odd to an external observator.

Yeah Indonesia does have F-16s but the current most advance variant is the F-16D which the equipment on it was years older when compared to the KF-21's equipment. If the KF-21 were to be equipped with the F-16D's equipment than it would be super obsolete compared to the original design which of course would not be worth it since we invest billions of dollar into the KF-21 development. Indonesia does have plans to buy the new F-16V Viper but we canceled it because what we need is an heavy fighter not an F-16.

(F-16V Viper with Indonesian Air Force livery shown on Lockheed Martin's website):





We also plans to buy the Su-35 but US threatens us with sanction for buying Russian equipment so we "postpone" the plan indefinitely, now we are planning to buy the Dassault Rafale fighter jets and also the F-15EX Eagle 2 but then again we would not have receive some of it's core technology that makes the plane deadly. So it was very complicated for us right now and the solution is to try to invest and learn on the KF-21 Boramae fighter program and evantually build our own fighter jet.

 

[Frogfigther]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem soon enough.

how much US content is in the radar since its made by Korea?
anyways, cant those 4 things be replaced? (maybe not so easily). such as say an AESA from France, Damocles from France, etc

There is no participation of Lockheed in AESA/EOTGP/Jammer/IRST program for KF-21. However, some US, Italian contents are in Jammer and IRST.
Then, how about 3rd parties' avionics for IF-X? Modifications for IF-X program is basically lead by KAI so Indonesia should spend more budget to change the avionics to KAI, not themselves even though they are already 3~4 years behind in their dues and using them as a leverage for Seoul. Furthermore, Russian avionics are totally non-sense because CAATSA is not only applied to SK also Indoensia. You know, Jakarta did cancel their SU-35 purchase because of CAATSA.
The last thing I want to emphasize is that PTDI lost their chance for getting several basic, but important aviation skills by their gov's nonfulfillment and might also miss the opportunity to get and modify the prototype along with KAI for IF-X if they discharges their duty to pay.
I think it is very very big loss to Jakarta.

 

[helmutkohl]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem so

how much US content is in the radar since its made by Korea?
anyways, cant those 4 things be replaced? (maybe not so easily). such as say an AESA from France, Damocles from France, etc

I don't really know about the US content. But I heavily assume it was based on the Lockheed AESA Radar with some little changes.



That is what I also thinks, we could replace those equipment with the ones from other countries. Especially Russia since they are not as "complicated" as America in terms of this export regulation. So we might replace the AESA radar with the Export Zhuk AESA radar variant from Russia, the Su-35 IRST, Russian jammer, and also Russian electro-optical targeting equipment. But the question is wether those system would fit inside the KF-21 fuselage or not.
Can someone here post a diagram or some sort like that of the KF-21 with the sizes of the plane (x and y) please so I could analyze it. Thanks ))

Russian avionics is probably unlikely in this current climate.
As you mentioned, there are sanctions that limit Indonesia's ability to really operate Russian stuff

also the way the world is shifting, its becoming more divided into two world orders again.
Since Indonesia has major disputes with China over maritime boundary, I see it shifting towards the US (although I applaud Indonesia for trying to maintain its own independent policy).

In this case French avionics would be the alternative rather than Russian.
Its generally what countries go to when they need an alternative to the US system, but don't or can't go to Russian/Chinese for whatever reason.

 

[Iannendra]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem soon enough.

how much US content is in the radar since its made by Korea?
anyways, cant those 4 things be replaced? (maybe not so easily). such as say an AESA from France, Damocles from France, etc

There is no participation of Lockheed in AESA/EOTGP/Jammer/IRST program for KF-21. However, some US, Italian contents are in Jammer and IRST.
Then, how about 3rd parties' avionics for IF-X? Modifications for IF-X program is basically lead by KAI so Indonesia should spend more budget to change the avionics to KAI, not themselves even though they are already 3~4 years behind in their dues and using them as a leverage for Seoul. Furthermore, Russian avionics are totally non-sense because CAATSA is not only applied to SK also Indoensia. You know, Jakarta did cancel their SU-35 purchase because of CAATSA.
The last thing I want to emphasize is that PTDI lost their chance for getting several basic, but important aviation skills by their gov's nonfulfillment and might also miss the opportunity to get and modify the prototype along with KAI for IF-X if they discharges their duty to pay.
I think it is very very big loss to Jakarta.

It's not a loss at all. And buying Russia avionics wouldn't be a lot of problems since it could be brought more easily than buying plane. And we are also trying to do renegotiation with the South Koreans.
So no it's not a loss!

 

[Iannendra]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem so

how much US content is in the radar since its made by Korea?
anyways, cant those 4 things be replaced? (maybe not so easily). such as say an AESA from France, Damocles from France, etc

I don't really know about the US content. But I heavily assume it was based on the Lockheed AESA Radar with some little changes.



That is what I also thinks, we could replace those equipment with the ones from other countries. Especially Russia since they are not as "complicated" as America in terms of this export regulation. So we might replace the AESA radar with the Export Zhuk AESA radar variant from Russia, the Su-35 IRST, Russian jammer, and also Russian electro-optical targeting equipment. But the question is wether those system would fit inside the KF-21 fuselage or not.
Can someone here post a diagram or some sort like that of the KF-21 with the sizes of the plane (x and y) please so I could analyze it. Thanks ))

Russian avionics is probably unlikely in this current climate.
As you mentioned, there are sanctions that limit Indonesia's ability to really operate Russian stuff

also the way the world is shifting, its becoming more divided into two world orders again.
Since Indonesia has major disputes with China over maritime boundary, I see it shifting towards the US (although I applaud Indonesia for trying to maintain its own independent policy).

In this case French avionics would be the alternative rather than Russian.
Its generally what countries go to when they need an alternative to the US system, but don't or can't go to Russian/Chinese for whatever reason.

French avionics is not better compared to the top end Russian ones you know. Such as the IRST, etc they have it for the Dassault Rafale such as the Optronique secteur frontal but it's not as advance as the Su-35 IRST which is just Superb and also remember than we are investing a lot in the KF-21 so it's bette rto equip it with top-end stuff and not inferior stuff to make the money for investing worth it. So I think buying Russian avionics is easier than buying the whole Su-35 and because of that it's also possible too to buy the Russian avionics. Only 4 of them only.

 

[helmutkohl]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem so

how much US content is in the radar since its made by Korea?
anyways, cant those 4 things be replaced? (maybe not so easily). such as say an AESA from France, Damocles from France, etc

I don't really know about the US content. But I heavily assume it was based on the Lockheed AESA Radar with some little changes.



That is what I also thinks, we could replace those equipment with the ones from other countries. Especially Russia since they are not as "complicated" as America in terms of this export regulation. So we might replace the AESA radar with the Export Zhuk AESA radar variant from Russia, the Su-35 IRST, Russian jammer, and also Russian electro-optical targeting equipment. But the question is wether those system would fit inside the KF-21 fuselage or not.
Can someone here post a diagram or some sort like that of the KF-21 with the sizes of the plane (x and y) please so I could analyze it. Thanks ))

Russian avionics is probably unlikely in this current climate.
As you mentioned, there are sanctions that limit Indonesia's ability to really operate Russian stuff

also the way the world is shifting, its becoming more divided into two world orders again.
Since Indonesia has major disputes with China over maritime boundary, I see it shifting towards the US (although I applaud Indonesia for trying to maintain its own independent policy).

In this case French avionics would be the alternative rather than Russian.
Its generally what countries go to when they need an alternative to the US system, but don't or can't go to Russian/Chinese for whatever reason.

French avionics is not better compared to the top end Russian ones you know. Such as the IRST, etc they have it for the Dassault Rafale such as the Optronique secteur frontal but it's not as advance as the Su-35 IRST which is just Superb and also remember than we are investing a lot in the KF-21 so it's bette rto equip it with top-end stuff and not inferior stuff to make the money for investing worth it. So I think buying Russian avionics is easier than buying the whole Su-35 and because of that it's also possible too to buy the Russian avionics. Only 4 of them only.

no it wouldnt work

1. KAI has to be willing to do this, and I don't think they have the political will
2. stuff designed for the Su-35 probably won't fit in the KF-21
3. its an entirely different system, KAI will then need to certify all these new weapons types that may not fit in the bay (either the semi-recessed or internal one). at least the French radar like on the Rafale can still shoot Meteor
4. Putting Russian avionics in a modern 4th gen or higher aircraft, hasn't been done its a huge risk
5. You are still under CAATSA, so all that work to put Russian avionics to fire Russian missiles will be pointless if you're having difficulty importing them
6. I disagree that buying Russian avionics is easier than buying the whole Su-35. Its probably easier to buy the whole Su-35.

 

[Iannendra]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem so

how much US content is in the radar since its made by Korea?
anyways, cant those 4 things be replaced? (maybe not so easily). such as say an AESA from France, Damocles from France, etc

I don't really know about the US content. But I heavily assume it was based on the Lockheed AESA Radar with some little changes.



That is what I also thinks, we could replace those equipment with the ones from other countries. Especially Russia since they are not as "complicated" as America in terms of this export regulation. So we might replace the AESA radar with the Export Zhuk AESA radar variant from Russia, the Su-35 IRST, Russian jammer, and also Russian electro-optical targeting equipment. But the question is wether those system would fit inside the KF-21 fuselage or not.
Can someone here post a diagram or some sort like that of the KF-21 with the sizes of the plane (x and y) please so I could analyze it. Thanks ))

Russian avionics is probably unlikely in this current climate.
As you mentioned, there are sanctions that limit Indonesia's ability to really operate Russian stuff

also the way the world is shifting, its becoming more divided into two world orders again.
Since Indonesia has major disputes with China over maritime boundary, I see it shifting towards the US (although I applaud Indonesia for trying to maintain its own independent policy).

In this case French avionics would be the alternative rather than Russian.
Its generally what countries go to when they need an alternative to the US system, but don't or can't go to Russian/Chinese for whatever reason.

French avionics is not better compared to the top end Russian ones you know. Such as the IRST, etc they have it for the Dassault Rafale such as the Optronique secteur frontal but it's not as advance as the Su-35 IRST which is just Superb and also remember than we are investing a lot in the KF-21 so it's bette rto equip it with top-end stuff and not inferior stuff to make the money for investing worth it. So I think buying Russian avionics is easier than buying the whole Su-35 and because of that it's also possible too to buy the Russian avionics. Only 4 of them only.

no it wouldnt work

1. KAI has to be willing to do this, and I don't think they have the political will
2. stuff designed for the Su-35 probably won't fit in the KF-21
3. its an entirely different system, KAI will then need to certify all these new weapons types that may not fit in the bay (either the semi-recessed or internal one). at least the French radar like on the Rafale can still shoot Meteor
4. Putting Russian avionics in a modern 4th gen or higher aircraft, hasn't been done its a huge risk
5. You are still under CAATSA, so all that work to put Russian avionics to fire Russian missiles will be pointless if you're having difficulty importing them
6. I disagree that buying Russian avionics is easier than buying the whole Su-35. Its probably easier to buy the whole Su-35.

Why not?

1. No they won't risk their military ToT with the Americans just to give us the secret avionics that has been derived from the top-end and top secret Lockheed Martin's avionics. The South Koreans is the one who told us that we couldn't get 4 of that core technologies without signing DTSS with the Americans.

2. Probably doesn't mean it won't. That is why I need the diagram of the KF-21 with it's size. Certain stuff on the fuselage could be modified to fit the equipment too. It doesn't need to be 100% the same design as the current KF-X. That is why IFX exists.

3. It's not that different. It is still a radar, jammer, targeting system, IRST too but with different origin and different system (but the principal is still the same). So yes it would take some time and effort to optimize the Indonesian version of the KF-21 to fit it but at the end it would work. Many military aircraft has done this (Russian Il-76 with West European AWACS radar, etcc).

4. Why huge risk? Su-57 and Su-35 is okay right now.

5. It's not that difficult since it could be bought with more secrecy. And the goverment now has changed from Trump so with some negotiations with the Biden's presidency we of course would be able to obtain the Avionics. Avionics wouldn't be a problem, the Indians did it and they don't have sanction. Only avionics.

6. Well, buying a large big heavy fighter plane is of course not easier than buying a small easily transported Russian avionics. And buying an avionics that only have more less than half of Su-35 price wouldn't be a problem. It's like we are buying a IRST, Radar, Jammer, and also targeting system for our current Su-27SKM2 and Su-30MK2 which is permittable.

 

[Iannendra]

Plot twists, the current Indonesian Air Force Su-27SKM2 has the Irbis-E radar which is the SAME radar that was used on the Su-35. So if we are permitted to buy top-end Russian radar than why couldn't we buy smilliar stuffs too for the IFX KF-21 from the Russians?

 

[stealthflanker]

Replacing avionics isnt as simple as changing battery. It's almost nearly change the entire design of the aircraft, and the whoever one wish to help doing such would charge premium especially if they have no comparable things in the first place.

Let's say we want Russian AESA inside the KF-21... The aperture are not in same shape as the one Russia have... Thus antenna redesign is required. and then Russian use Brick architecture.. while Korea use something smaller.. Another redesign. Cooling capacity what if Russian module turns out to produce more heat.. Every KW of cooling added will add weight and volume.

Another fairytale from Indonesian netizens about IFX which i hate most. Again it cannot stand hard truth that we have made no investment or industrial support for such change.

Let's look at Indian Vetrivale program for their Su-30MKI as comparison. Notice that they actually INVESTED in HAL.. they CREATE the technological base for it and all of them are supportedby LARGE order of 272 Su-30MKI. Over 2000 small companies or firms are established. Indonesia ? Where ?.

IFX ? Are we even committed for 50 airframes in the first place ? If not, dont people think that Industrial base requires Order to ensure its survival ?

 

[stealthflanker]

Plot twists, the current Indonesian Air Force Su-27SKM2 has the Irbis-E radar which is the SAME radar that was used on the Su-35. So if we are permitted to buy top-end Russian radar than why couldn't we buy smilliar stuffs too for the IFX KF-21 from the Russians?

Big Lie.

and there are no such thing as "SKM-2" All we have was SKM and it use N001VE radar.

 

[helmutkohl]

Plot twists, the current Indonesian Air Force Su-27SKM2 has the Irbis-E radar which is the SAME radar that was used on the Su-35. So if we are permitted to buy top-end Russian radar than why couldn't we buy smilliar stuffs too for the IFX KF-21 from the Russians?

no it doesnt. also the Su-35 has a larger radome than the Su-27. it wouldn't fit
also even if it did. Su-27 and Su-35 are from the same country and likely the same plant in Knaapo or Iapo
KFX is Korean. it is a lot more difficult to integrate something from a different country that uses a totally different system.
French at least has some overlap as they need to work with NATO.

 

[Iannendra]

Replacing avionics isnt as simple as changing battery. It's almost nearly change the entire design of the aircraft, and the whoever one wish to help doing such would charge premium especially if they have no comparable things in the first place.

Let's say we want Russian AESA inside the KF-21... The aperture are not in same shape as the one Russia have... Thus antenna redesign is required. and then Russian use Brick architecture.. while Korea use something smaller.. Another redesign. Cooling capacity what if Russian module turns out to produce more heat.. Every KW of cooling added will add weight and volume.

Another fairytale from Indonesian netizens about IFX which i hate most. Again it cannot stand hard truth that we have made no investment or industrial support for such change.

Let's look at Indian Vetrivale program for their Su-30MKI as comparison. Notice that they actually INVESTED in HAL.. they CREATE the technological base for it and all of them are supportedby LARGE order of 272 Su-30MKI. Over 2000 small companies or firms are established. Indonesia ? Where ?.

IFX ? Are we even committed for 50 airframes in the first place ? If not, dont people think that Industrial base requires Order to ensure its survival ?

First of all please don't insert Indonesia netizen discussion here because we are good netizen.

Second of all I know that using Russian Avionics on KF-21 is not like changing battery that's why I say it takes time and effort but at the end we could did it. And yes there would be some redesign but I am sure we could achieve it. There are plenty other option other than only one Russian AESA radar so it would be more flexible even tough not very flexible. After all signing DTSS for the top-secret 4 core technology for the Indonesian KF-21 cost money and infrastructure which we desperately need right now so I doubt it would happen.

 

[Iannendra]

Plot twists, the current Indonesian Air Force Su-27SKM2 has the Irbis-E radar which is the SAME radar that was used on the Su-35. So if we are permitted to buy top-end Russian radar than why couldn't we buy smilliar stuffs too for the IFX KF-21 from the Russians?

no it doesnt. also the Su-35 has a larger radome than the Su-27. it wouldn't fit
also even if it did. Su-27 and Su-35 are from the same country and likely the same plant in Knaapo or Iapo
KFX is Korean. it is a lot more difficult to integrate something from a different country that uses a totally different system.
French at least has some overlap as they need to work with NATO.

There are a lot of Russian AESA radar not just one option only. There are big ones and smaller ones also exists, so it would be possible to fit a Russian AESA radar and other core avionics into the KF-21 with some redesign but the question is which one fits in it?

 

[stealthflanker]

First of all please don't insert Indonesia netizen discussion here because we are good netizen.

Second of all I know that using Russian Avionics on KF-21 is not like changing battery that's why I say it takes time and effort but at the end we could did it. And yes there would be some redesign but I am sure we could achieve it. There are plenty other option other than only one Russian AESA radar so it would be more flexible even tough not very flexible. After all signing DTSS for the top-secret 4 core technology for the Indonesian KF-21 cost money and infrastructure which we desperately need right now so I doubt it would happen.

Good but delusional is bad. I have seen multiple "aspirations" of custom IFX but does not make it through reality check.

First thing first is how many planes ? You are asking for a Plane which exclusive to our airforce. it needs OUR OWN MONEY. and firms like PTDI and other companies involved are clearly need Break even point, or in other word PROFIT. You cannot profit by only equipping Few airframes. Orders have to be increased in the number of hundreds. How many planes we intend to order ? Or are we ready for ahving Few airframes and willing to absorb the cost and potential logistical problem caused by their being exclusive ?


Are we expending on the industrial base yet ? That is the question. It's not just "some" redesign you are looking at basically almost new aircraft. and you dont raise the industrial base for it overnight. It should be done far back in 2010 where we signed the co-development.

Any form of customzation have to be consulted to Korea too as they are the main designer for the aircrafts. and we lacked leverage. want more leverage ? Order more planes, increase our contribution to 50% or more then we can talk about those fantasy about having custom design. Same with industry... If one wish for "4 key technologies" Where the hell is the industrial base to support them ? EU just dont go and set up industries there... they give knowledge.. data, expertise... to the EXISTING industrial base in Korea which they later absorb and develop their own design.

In Indonesia ? such industries doesnt exist yet. Nor being looked as future investment.

 

[Iannendra]

First of all please don't insert Indonesia netizen discussion here because we are good netizen.

Second of all I know that using Russian Avionics on KF-21 is not like changing battery that's why I say it takes time and effort but at the end we could did it. And yes there would be some redesign but I am sure we could achieve it. There are plenty other option other than only one Russian AESA radar so it would be more flexible even tough not very flexible. After all signing DTSS for the top-secret 4 core technology for the Indonesian KF-21 cost money and infrastructure which we desperately need right now so I doubt it would happen.

Good but delusional is bad. I have seen multiple "aspirations" of custom IFX but does not make it through reality check.

First thing first is how many planes ? You are asking for a Plane which exclusive to our airforce. it needs OUR OWN MONEY. and firms like PTDI and other companies involved are clearly need Break even point, or in other word PROFIT. You cannot profit by only equipping Few airframes. Orders have to be increased in the number of hundreds. How many planes we intend to order ? Or are we ready for ahving Few airframes and willing to absorb the cost and potential logistical problem caused by their being exclusive ?


Are we expending on the industrial base yet ? That is the question. It's not just "some" redesign you are looking at basically almost new aircraft. and you dont raise the industrial base for it overnight. It should be done far back in 2010 where we signed the co-development.

Any form of customzation have to be consulted to Korea too as they are the main designer for the aircrafts. and we lacked leverage. want more leverage ? Order more planes, increase our contribution to 50% or more then we can talk about those fantasy about having custom design. Same with industry... If one wish for "4 key technologies" Where the hell is the industrial base to support them ? EU just dont go and set up industries there... they give knowledge.. data, expertise... to the EXISTING industrial base in Korea which they later absorb and develop their own design.

In Indonesia ? such industries doesnt exist yet. Nor being looked as future investment.

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree to continue with the KF-21 fighter program but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

And yes we need South Korean help for the customization of our aircraft but I am very much sure they would agree with it since if they dissagreed than we virtually have to abandon the program since we didn't get those 4 core technologies and of course the South Koreans would lost a few billions of dollar from our ongoing payment and investment. So in my case it would be a win-win since the South Korean would still get our money from our investment in the program (since we agree to continue it), and we would also have those 4 advance top-end core technologies that would still make our KF-21 fighter effective too as a 4++ gen fighter jet even tough those technologies are not from the United States or South Korea.

 

[stealthflanker]

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

 

[GARGEAN]

Plot twists, the current Indonesian Air Force Su-27SKM2 has the Irbis-E radar which is the SAME radar that was used on the Su-35.

No it hasn't.

 

[GARGEAN]

also the Su-35 has a larger radome than the Su-27.

that's not exactly the case btw. N035 diameter is slightly less than one of N011M.

 

[Trident]

The original Su-35 (aka Su-27M) did, but not the current Su-35S. That said, the latter has a different structural arrangement inside, so I don't think Irbis-E would be a plug&play fit (a prototype was flown in a Su-30MKK with the old nose, but not sure how close that was to the production radar).

 

[kaiserd]

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

I’m sorry if I missed this but why would you WANT to go to the trouble of even trying to swap in Russian equipment, unless you were being denied access to the Korean/ US (or other “Western” - sorry about the stupid general phrase) equipment already “baked-in” to this aircraft?
Why pay more for less?

 

[stealthflanker]

I’m sorry if I missed this but why would you WANT to go to the trouble of even trying to swap in Russian equipment, unless you were being denied access to the Korean/ US (or other “Western” - sorry about the stupid general phrase) equipment already “baked-in” to this aircraft?
Why pay more for less?

Believe it or not.

Some of our Netizens have such aspirations. They wish for "complete customizations" for KF-21. This is however a delusional and rather arrogant point of view. Not only unsupported by facts but it completely underestimated common sense in aircraft design.

The story always begin with "We denied technologies bla..bla..bla followed by our engineers are capable of bla..bla..bla and finally We should have more technologies or have right to get more"
It's plain annoying. Especially since there is practically nothing being done here to support those bold claims.

Like.. are we even talks to Russia or other providers for KF-21 ? No. No such thing are done...all talks about Customizations and use of Foreign systems are by Koreans. Who did SAAB approach for KFX program ? The Koreans, not us. Those realites however are unfortunately often overlooked. Another reality being stomped on was the fact we only contributes like 20% and re-negotiates it.

Well if we claim for rights for technology transfers with such amount for shares... How about Korea which hold 80%. Those netizens cannot see that more shares = more leverage.

---

Those would be more believable had we actually make the program a Joint venture or 50:50 shares, having hundreds of the aircrafts booked for productions, actually willing to foster the industries required for it. But we didnt so.. No.

 

[Sgt_Miller]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem soon enough.

Indonesia doesn't have the capability to manufacture those 4 core technologies anyway, so that kind of reasoning is kinda BS. Indonesians getting or not getting those are not the goal of the KF-21 program itself, since the original goal for Indonesia is to be able to assembly a model of a modern jet fighter, not saying anything about its major subcomponents such as radar, etc. As for those core technologies you were concerned about, Indonesia should start their own indigenous development program if they really want to master said technologies, not begging for technology transfers as a reason for payment failure.

 

[Iannendra]

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

No matter what you say. Cutomizing our KF-21 to fit Russian avionics is 1000% possible even tough it cost money and effort and time. Because it's the fact man!

 

[Iannendra]

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

I’m sorry if I missed this but why would you WANT to go to the trouble of even trying to swap in Russian equipment, unless you were being denied access to the Korean/ US (or other “Western” - sorry about the stupid general phrase) equipment already “baked-in” to this aircraft?
Why pay more for less?

We cannot get the 4 core technologies on our KF-21 without signing DTSS with the Americans because those tech are top secret. And I doubt we would sign that because it cost money and infrastructure to secure and keep the advance technology that we get from American secret. So it's hard right now and the win win solution is to still continue our investment with the South Koreans on the KF-21 fighter while not signing the DTSS and still making the 4++ generation fighter effective using the Russian avionics that we should get. Remember that getting Russian export advance equipmentis like 1000% easier than getting US top end advance technology. So it should work even tough it cost some time and effort.

 

[helmutkohl]

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

No matter what you say. Cutomizing our KF-21 to fit Russian avionics is 1000% possible even tough it cost money and effort and time. Because it's the fact man!

1000% possible according to whom?
you just said it was cheap and easy.
if its so cheap and easy why hasn't Iran swapped out their American F-14s avionics with a Russian equivalent? it would make perfect sense since the US no longer supports Iranian F-14s yet they haven't done so.
Why has Malaysia and India limited non-Russian avionics in their Flankers to smaller components such as HUDs, targeting pods, etc, but not major components?
It is not plug and play like everyone here keeps telling you. The only reason why some countries can swap out US systems for an Israeli or French alternative is because they share commonalities (and even then its not a cheap and easy switch).

You also keep complaining about DTSS, but you entirely ignore CATSAA. Even if KF-21 were modified to carry Russian systems, how will you even import those missiles and spare parts if it becomes difficult to acquire them?

there's a lot of wishful thinking I'm afraid to say.

 

[RPO Rys]

How about paying your share first before actually daydreaming?

 

[Iannendra]

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

No matter what you say. Cutomizing our KF-21 to fit Russian avionics is 1000% possible even tough it cost money and effort and time. Because it's the fact man!

1000% possible according to whom?

According to the fact.

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

No matter what you say. Cutomizing our KF-21 to fit Russian avionics is 1000% possible even tough it cost money and effort and time. Because it's the fact man!

you just said it was cheap and easy.
if its so cheap and easy why hasn't Iran swapped out their American F-14s avionics with a Russian equivalent? it would make perfect sense since the US no longer supports Iranian F-14s yet they haven't done so.

Because for some reason, doesn't mean the Iranians doesn't do it means it is impossible. After all the Iranian F-14 has that fuselage since the beggining while our KF-21 could still be designed now before it was made to fit the Russian avionics.

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

No matter what you say. Cutomizing our KF-21 to fit Russian avionics is 1000% possible even tough it cost money and effort and time. Because it's the fact man!

Why has Malaysia and India limited non-Russian avionics in their Flankers to smaller components such as HUDs, targeting pods, etc, but not major components?
It is not plug and play like everyone here keeps telling you. The only reason why some countries can swap out US systems for an Israeli or French alternative is because they share commonalities (and even then its not a cheap and easy switch).

You also keep complaining about DTSS, but you entirely ignore CATSAA. Even if KF-21 were modified to carry Russian systems, how will you even import those missiles and spare parts if it becomes difficult to acquire them?

there's a lot of wishful thinking I'm afraid to say.

Malaysia limited Non-Russian avionics in the Flankers because they just hate Israel so they don't want an equipment made by Israel to be in their Flankers. For the Indian it is because they just want more Russian equipment in their Flankers to made repair easy (so they don't have to look for other country to repair the plane and instead just order the equipment in one order from Russia. Remember that they don't have to sign DTSS bull crap or stuff like that to buy the Flankers from Russia so it's 1000% make sense that they still insert the Russian avionics in their Flankers.

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

No matter what you say. Cutomizing our KF-21 to fit Russian avionics is 1000% possible even tough it cost money and effort and time. Because it's the fact man!

It is not plug and play like everyone here keeps telling you. The only reason why some countries can swap out US systems for an Israeli or French alternative is because they share commonalities (and even then its not a cheap and easy switch).

Yes I agree it's not plug and switch that's why from the beggining I say it takes time, money, and effort! At the end we could do it with help from South Korea and Russia. Because looking at current situation I doubt we will sign DTSS, so if we keep it like this our KF-21 would be obsolete with older equipment and not top-end ones that make the KF-21 superior as a 4++ gen fighter jet.

Delusional is bad but fighter plane exists because of human "delusional" thinking that made it possible. You cannot call this delusional since we are playing with fact.

The delusional fact is all your points about "customization" which not even supported by or government. Now tell me what firm are going to absorb and make those "4 key technologies" ?

We intend to order 48 planes and that is very good for developing country like us to buy 48 4++ gen aircraft. And profit? What do you mean by profit? Buying 54 (6 more piece for emergency) piece of 4 Russian equipments would be okay. Well the think is the condition back then in 2010 and now is 1000% completely different, 11 years has passed, technology evolved and such stuff like that. So I doubt we and the South Koreans were thinking about what would happen now when DTSS was suddenly made a requirement to get advance technologies for export fighter jets. So what other option do you think about? If we want to sign DTSS, it's okay but I doubt it since if we want to sign it we would have already done it 2 years ago. So this is like a dillema, we invest billions of dollars to this and if we cancel it than it would be a waste, and on the other hand we must sign DTSS which cost money and such other stuffs but we desperately needs money right now.

Profit is profit. You dont sell your goods without some form of margin. and this is achieved by mass production so you will have Low production cost and can actually put Margin in it while keep the price looks cheap. This is the common sense.


and my question was is 48 a "firm" order ? The main problem of Indonesia here is Consistency.

And of course we Indonesia doesn't have fighter jet or it's avionics industry right now, that is why we invest in KF-X program so we can learn from that and make our own fighter program. It takes time, we now have our domestic bomb producing factory for our fighter jet so there is progress.

Which should be started back in 2010. If a roadmap exist. No roadmap = no progress.

So of course my best solution and I think so to for the goverment is to agree with the KF-21 but we can equip it with Russian equipment for instance which is like 1000% easier to get than the US/South Korean technology. The Russian equipments were also not lacking at all compared to it's counterpart. It's way easier to get, and also it is slightly cheaper to buy too. And yes we need some redesign but that would be possible because we would have control of that 48 planes that we order too.

The best and arguably SANE solution is to accept the KF-21 AS IS. Korean standard. We already have AMRAAM's Sidewinders and Korean also use them too. + meteor.

You want to equip Russian equipment in it ? Who's gonna bear the cost of such customization ? are our government willing to do so ?

No matter what you say. Cutomizing our KF-21 to fit Russian avionics is 1000% possible even tough it cost money and effort and time. Because it's the fact man!

You also keep complaining about DTSS, but you entirely ignore CATSAA. Even if KF-21 were modified to carry Russian systems, how will you even import those missiles and spare parts if it becomes difficult to acquire them?

there's a lot of wishful thinking I'm afraid to say.

CATSAA exists but it DID NOT sanction us from buying weapons or avionics from Russia. We still get our Su-27 and Su-30 and now we are free to buy weapons from Russia and also the avionics for us (in-case some broke in our Flankers). So buying avionic is 1000% possible and fro weapon there are plenty other option other than Russia for us to buy with, there are Ukraine, Belarus, etc who provide the same weapon after all altough we would still buy weapon from Russia for our KF-21 since only the Russians has the top-end weapons suitable for our KF-21 with the Russian avionics.\
And no this isn't wishful thinking as I already explained.

How about paying your share first before actually daydreaming?

We are negotiating it right now and what do you mean by "day dreaming" since it is entirely possible to fit the KF-21 with Russian avionics even tough it takes money, time, and effort. And once again I tell you the reason why we are not confident in sharing those payment is because of DTSS. If we continue and paying our share without signing DTSS (which I doubt we will sign it) then our KF-21 will be obsolete which would make our investment not worth it since we need advance 4++ gen aircraft not a KF-21 with older equipment! So that is why we are not confident in it not because our goverment incompetency or some sort like that!
And this is why too we need to fit Russian equipment to our KF-21 so even tough we didn't sign the DTSS, we still get our KF-21 as 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.

 

[RPO Rys]

You talk like Indonesia owns and had paid for 90% of the project cost and effort.

 

[Iannendra]

I’m sorry if I missed this but why would you WANT to go to the trouble of even trying to swap in Russian equipment, unless you were being denied access to the Korean/ US (or other “Western” - sorry about the stupid general phrase) equipment already “baked-in” to this aircraft?
Why pay more for less?

Believe it or not.

Some of our Netizens have such aspirations. They wish for "complete customizations" for KF-21. This is however a delusional and rather arrogant point of view. Not only unsupported by facts but it completely underestimated common sense in aircraft design.

The story always begin with "We denied technologies bla..bla..bla followed by our engineers are capable of bla..bla..bla and finally We should have more technologies or have right to get more"
It's plain annoying. Especially since there is practically nothing being done here to support those bold claims.

Like.. are we even talks to Russia or other providers for KF-21 ? No. No such thing are done...all talks about Customizations and use of Foreign systems are by Koreans. Who did SAAB approach for KFX program ? The Koreans, not us. Those realites however are unfortunately often overlooked. Another reality being stomped on was the fact we only contributes like 20% and re-negotiates it.

Well if we claim for rights for technology transfers with such amount for shares... How about Korea which hold 80%. Those netizens cannot see that more shares = more leverage.

---

Those would be more believable had we actually make the program a Joint venture or 50:50 shares, having hundreds of the aircrafts booked for productions, actually willing to foster the industries required for it. But we didnt so.. No.

And I think the one who is arrogant is you since you keep denying the fact that fitting Russian avionics into our KF-21 isn't possible even tough it takes money, effort, and time. It is entirely possible too do it. Especially our KF-21 is not built yet so there is still room to do some redesign so we could fir those Russian avionics into our KF-21. I know it sounds weird but if we don't do it, than we will get obsolete KF-21 since we also didn't sign DTSS with the Americans. So our investment will NOT be worth it since after all of this spending what we need is a 4++ gen fighter jet not a KF-21 with obsolete equipment.
So even tough we didn't sign the DTSS, we still get our KF-21 as 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.
Open your mind please!

 

[Iannendra]

You talk like Indonesia owns and had paid for 90% of the project cost and effort.

Dude I explain why our goverment is not confident is paying it, please READ all of my statements above! And it's not worth it too to continue paying the KF-21 but at the end we would receive an obsolete KF-21 with older equipment! So it's a MUST to plan ahead before paying the cost! Otherwise fatality will happen!

 

[RPO Rys]

I’m sorry if I missed this but why would you WANT to go to the trouble of even trying to swap in Russian equipment, unless you were being denied access to the Korean/ US (or other “Western” - sorry about the stupid general phrase) equipment already “baked-in” to this aircraft?
Why pay more for less?

Believe it or not.

Some of our Netizens have such aspirations. They wish for "complete customizations" for KF-21. This is however a delusional and rather arrogant point of view. Not only unsupported by facts but it completely underestimated common sense in aircraft design.

The story always begin with "We denied technologies bla..bla..bla followed by our engineers are capable of bla..bla..bla and finally We should have more technologies or have right to get more"
It's plain annoying. Especially since there is practically nothing being done here to support those bold claims.

Like.. are we even talks to Russia or other providers for KF-21 ? No. No such thing are done...all talks about Customizations and use of Foreign systems are by Koreans. Who did SAAB approach for KFX program ? The Koreans, not us. Those realites however are unfortunately often overlooked. Another reality being stomped on was the fact we only contributes like 20% and re-negotiates it.

Well if we claim for rights for technology transfers with such amount for shares... How about Korea which hold 80%. Those netizens cannot see that more shares = more leverage.

---

Those would be more believable had we actually make the program a Joint venture or 50:50 shares, having hundreds of the aircrafts booked for productions, actually willing to foster the industries required for it. But we didnt so.. No.

And I think the one who is arrogant is you since you keep denying the fact that fitting Russian avionics into our KF-21 isn't possible even tough it takes money, effort, and time. It is entirely possible too do it. Especially our KF-21 is not built yet so there is still room to do some redesign so we could fir those Russian avionics into our KF-21. I know it sounds weird but if we don't do it, than we will get obsolete KF-21 since we also didn't sign DTSS with the Americans. So our investment will NOT be worth it since after all of this spending what we need is a 4++ gen fighter jet not a KF-21 with obsolete equipment.
So even tough we didn't sign the DTSS, we still get our KF-21 as 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.
Open your mind please!

Mind you I think you are the arrogant one who kept talking about money and hotshid while Indonesia is the one who kept reducing their contribution and kept negotiating for lower pricing.

You want cool stuff, give more money, not less or delaying payment

 

[Iannendra]

I’m sorry if I missed this but why would you WANT to go to the trouble of even trying to swap in Russian equipment, unless you were being denied access to the Korean/ US (or other “Western” - sorry about the stupid general phrase) equipment already “baked-in” to this aircraft?
Why pay more for less?

Believe it or not.

Some of our Netizens have such aspirations. They wish for "complete customizations" for KF-21. This is however a delusional and rather arrogant point of view. Not only unsupported by facts but it completely underestimated common sense in aircraft design.

The story always begin with "We denied technologies bla..bla..bla followed by our engineers are capable of bla..bla..bla and finally We should have more technologies or have right to get more"
It's plain annoying. Especially since there is practically nothing being done here to support those bold claims.

Like.. are we even talks to Russia or other providers for KF-21 ? No. No such thing are done...all talks about Customizations and use of Foreign systems are by Koreans. Who did SAAB approach for KFX program ? The Koreans, not us. Those realites however are unfortunately often overlooked. Another reality being stomped on was the fact we only contributes like 20% and re-negotiates it.

Well if we claim for rights for technology transfers with such amount for shares... How about Korea which hold 80%. Those netizens cannot see that more shares = more leverage.

---

Those would be more believable had we actually make the program a Joint venture or 50:50 shares, having hundreds of the aircrafts booked for productions, actually willing to foster the industries required for it. But we didnt so.. No.

And I think the one who is arrogant is you since you keep denying the fact that fitting Russian avionics into our KF-21 isn't possible even tough it takes money, effort, and time. It is entirely possible too do it. Especially our KF-21 is not built yet so there is still room to do some redesign so we could fir those Russian avionics into our KF-21. I know it sounds weird but if we don't do it, than we will get obsolete KF-21 since we also didn't sign DTSS with the Americans. So our investment will NOT be worth it since after all of this spending what we need is a 4++ gen fighter jet not a KF-21 with obsolete equipment.
So even tough we didn't sign the DTSS, we still get our KF-21 as 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.
Open your mind please!

Mind you I think you are the arrogant one who kept talking about money and hotshid while Indonesia is the one who kept reducing their contribution and kept negotiating for lower pricing.

You want cool stuff, give more money, not less or delaying payment

Dude I explained why we need lower price right now! It is because we are not likely to sign the DTSS with the Americans for those 4 core technologies. So if we keep on the project by paying the current needed amount of money, than it wouldn't be worth it since we didn't get those 4 core technologies that makes KF-21 deadly! So we are renegotiating the price so it would be worth it for us to receive those 48 aircraft without those 4 core technologies. I guarantee if it didn't require DTSS to get those 4 core technologies than I am sure we would have payed it already since like 2 years ago.

Remember that we need to plan ahead for the KF-21 before paying it so that our investment will be worth it. And my solution is the best one since we will keep continuing the project and paying it and while we didn't sign the DTSS, we could still have our KF-21 as a 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.

So this is not arrogancy but rather the truth!

 

[Iannendra]

Indonesian here. The reason why our goverment is not that confident or that "straight" or consistent in the cost sharing payment is not because of our goverment's uncompetency or such stuff but because we (Indonesia) will NOT get all 4 CORE TECHNOLOGIES that are required to make the KF-21 Boramae good. The KF-21 technology was heavily influenced by Lockheed Martin's equipment and Indonesia needs to agree to a thing called "Defence Technology Security System" or DTSS. This agreement require Indonesia to keep the technology (that we get from the US for our KF-21) secret and secured so that other country could not have that technology for them so that they could fight us or the USA.

Here is the list of that 4 primary core technologies that Indonesia couldn't get on our KF-21 if we didn't sign and agree on the DTSS agreement:

1. AESA Type Radar
2. Infrared search and track (IRST) system
3. Electro-optical targeting system
4. Radio frequency (RF) Jammer

Those technology are smilliar to the F-35 core technology that of course is very secret:

View attachment 655586




This is the reason why our goverment is not very consistent in the payment as we need to think twice wether we should continue to invest and develop on this project or not since agreeing to DTSS needs money (which we are struggling now because of COVID and stuffs) and also the infrastructure and other stuffs too. So this is the main problem that we needs to solve on the KF-21 Boramae program. But as for now our goverment is commited and are trying to renegotiate on it's program with the South Koreans and I hope we will fix this problem soon enough.

Indonesia doesn't have the capability to manufacture those 4 core technologies anyway, so that kind of reasoning is kinda BS. Indonesians getting or not getting those are not the goal of the KF-21 program itself, since the original goal for Indonesia is to be able to assembly a model of a modern jet fighter, not saying anything about its major subcomponents such as radar, etc. As for those core technologies you were concerned about, Indonesia should start their own indigenous development program if they really want to master said technologies, not begging for technology transfers as a reason for payment failure.

Yes we don't have the tech needed to manufacture those 4 core technologies that is why we need to learn from other country. Now how do we learn it if we don't sign the DTSS? We couldn't. That is why it's better to continue this IAI KFX-21 program but with Russian top-end advance avionics so we could still study from other country on how to make those 4 core technologies and also how to build those planes so that evantually we could do our own indigenous fighter program.

And it's not a reason man! It is the truth that makes us didn't pay on time! It is because we are considering is it worth it or NOT to continue the program since if we does than it would be not worth it without those 4 core technologies! That is why I propose to keep still continue and pay for the KF-21 fighter program but with Russian top-end avionics so that we would still get the 4++ gen fighter jet and not a obsolete KF-21 with older avionics.

 

[RPO Rys]

I’m sorry if I missed this but why would you WANT to go to the trouble of even trying to swap in Russian equipment, unless you were being denied access to the Korean/ US (or other “Western” - sorry about the stupid general phrase) equipment already “baked-in” to this aircraft?
Why pay more for less?

Believe it or not.

Some of our Netizens have such aspirations. They wish for "complete customizations" for KF-21. This is however a delusional and rather arrogant point of view. Not only unsupported by facts but it completely underestimated common sense in aircraft design.

The story always begin with "We denied technologies bla..bla..bla followed by our engineers are capable of bla..bla..bla and finally We should have more technologies or have right to get more"
It's plain annoying. Especially since there is practically nothing being done here to support those bold claims.

Like.. are we even talks to Russia or other providers for KF-21 ? No. No such thing are done...all talks about Customizations and use of Foreign systems are by Koreans. Who did SAAB approach for KFX program ? The Koreans, not us. Those realites however are unfortunately often overlooked. Another reality being stomped on was the fact we only contributes like 20% and re-negotiates it.

Well if we claim for rights for technology transfers with such amount for shares... How about Korea which hold 80%. Those netizens cannot see that more shares = more leverage.

---

Those would be more believable had we actually make the program a Joint venture or 50:50 shares, having hundreds of the aircrafts booked for productions, actually willing to foster the industries required for it. But we didnt so.. No.

And I think the one who is arrogant is you since you keep denying the fact that fitting Russian avionics into our KF-21 isn't possible even tough it takes money, effort, and time. It is entirely possible too do it. Especially our KF-21 is not built yet so there is still room to do some redesign so we could fir those Russian avionics into our KF-21. I know it sounds weird but if we don't do it, than we will get obsolete KF-21 since we also didn't sign DTSS with the Americans. So our investment will NOT be worth it since after all of this spending what we need is a 4++ gen fighter jet not a KF-21 with obsolete equipment.
So even tough we didn't sign the DTSS, we still get our KF-21 as 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.
Open your mind please!

Mind you I think you are the arrogant one who kept talking about money and hotshid while Indonesia is the one who kept reducing their contribution and kept negotiating for lower pricing.

You want cool stuff, give more money, not less or delaying payment

Dude I explained why we need lower price right now! It is because we are not likely to sign the DTSS with the Americans for those 4 core technologies. So if we keep on the project by paying the current needed amount of money, than it wouldn't be worth it since we didn't get those 4 core technologies that makes KF-21 deadly! So we are renegotiating the price so it would be worth it for us to receive those 48 aircraft without those 4 core technologies. I guarantee if it didn't require DTSS to get those 4 core technologies than I am sure we would have payed it already since like 2 years ago.

Remember that we need to plan ahead for the KF-21 before paying it so that our investment will be worth it. And my solution is the best one since we will keep continuing the project and paying it and while we didn't sign the DTSS, we could still have our KF-21 as a 4++ gen fighter jet with top-end advance avionics even tough it is not from US or South Korea.

So this is not arrogancy but rather the truth!

God, have mercy on KAI and the South Koreans

 

[TomcatViP]

Shouldn't all this lenghty conversion (why so much quotation?!) around a Boramaesky version be better put together into its dedicated thread?