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Jemiba said:The source would be interesting .... as usual ! :
Here it is my dear Jemiba,
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Junkers Ju 290 and 390 Variants
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Here it is my dear Jemiba,
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Yes my dear Jemiba,
and me too,but where ?,here is a Junkers Ju-90.
http://www.456fis.org/JUNKERS_JU-390.htm
and me too,but where ?,here is a Junkers Ju-90.
http://www.456fis.org/JUNKERS_JU-390.htm
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Anyone ever seen this design before? It's a Junkers transport design that was wind tunnel tested by the AVA in April 1943. Its fuselage is 2846mm long and it has a wingspan of 3527mm (Ju 90 = 2600mm and 3500mm, Ju 290 = 2864mm and 4200mm) so it's sort of a Ju 290 with a Ju 90 wingspan. It also has a tall central fin between its two rudder plates.
Known or unknown?
Known or unknown?
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richard B said:
Ah - that's it exactly. My report's definitely AVA though, not DVL. I guess maybe they were both involved in the testing.
luis duarte
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Hello everyone...this is my first post here. Some time ago i´ve made an articule about the 390 to post in a Facebook group, so i hope you dont find too boring:
Two prototypes of the Junkers 390 were created by attaching an extra pair of inner-wing segments onto the wings of Ju 90 and Ju 290 airframes, and adding new sections to lengthen the fuselages. Power came from 6x1,500 hp BMW radial engines and it had a range of 18,000 miles. The V1 GH+UK made its maiden flight (allegedly) on 20 October 1943 and performed well, resulting in an order for 26 aircraft. According to former Junkers test pilot Hans-Joachim Pancherz' logbook, the Ju 390 V1 was brought to Prague immediately after it had been displayed at Insterburg to the Fuhrer, and while there took part in a number of test flights, which continued until March 1944, including tests of in-flight refueling. The project was cancelled in mid-1944. The Ju 390 V1 was returned to Dessau in November 1944, where it was destroyed in late April 1945 as the American Army approached. The second prototype V2 (RC+DA), was longer than the V1 because it was constructed from a Ju 290 airframe. It was fitted for maritime patrol. Interestingly the photo snapped of RC+DA was taken during an attack on a Malta Convoy, suggesting this aircraft was possibly operated by LTS.290 in North Africa. The photo clearly shows a white "Afrika" band. The photo was taken by merchant seaman Ron Whylie whilst his convoy KMF-5 was under attack in late 1942. The date alone disrupts claims that the first flight was made in 1943. A copy of his photo of RC+DA was long held by the Museum of Military History in Vienna and published by German test pilot Hans Werner Lerche in his autobiography. There are several wild tales involving Ju 390s in the Internet. A Ju 390, which may or may not have been the V2, is claimed by some to have made a test flight from Germany to Cape Town in early 1944. The sole source for the story is a article which appeared in the "Daily Telegraph" in 1969 titled "Lone Bomber Raid on New York Planned by Hitler", in which Hans Pancherz reportedly claimed to have made the flight in question, in company with an air to air refueling aircraft [Ju-290 reg CE+YZ] in January 1944. According to the book "German Aircraft of the Second World War" by J.R.Smith and Anthony L.Kay, the Ju 390 V2 went in January 1944 to FAGr 5 at Mont-de-Marsan for operational evaluation, from where it made a claimed flight to within 12 miles of New York. Other sources say that the recon flight to NY was on 27 August 1943, from Norway. What is a fact its that FaG 5 was disbanded in August 1944 when airbases in France were threatened by the Allies. FaG's Ju 290s and 390s were passed to KG 200, a special missions unit. Several interesting missions are attributed to the Ju 390, including liaison flights to Japan. While confirmation is lacking [not surprising for KG 200, a special ops unit)] Ju 290A-9s are known to have completed these missions. The V2 was standing by at Rechlin to evacuate Nazi VIPs to Spain in April of 1945. While a Ju 290A-5 actually made the flight to Spain, the V2 was not reported to have been located after the war. One account says the V2 was flown from Poland with German scientists and a secret centrifuge which ionized mercury(project Cronos/Laternenträge) to Bodo, Norway, where it was repainted in Swedish colors, and then flown with mid-air refueling to a ranch in Paysandu Province, Uruguay. The landing was witnessed by a Polish diplomat. The aircraft was then dismantled and sunk in the Uruguay River, where it is said to remain to this day.
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Two prototypes of the Junkers 390 were created by attaching an extra pair of inner-wing segments onto the wings of Ju 90 and Ju 290 airframes, and adding new sections to lengthen the fuselages. Power came from 6x1,500 hp BMW radial engines and it had a range of 18,000 miles. The V1 GH+UK made its maiden flight (allegedly) on 20 October 1943 and performed well, resulting in an order for 26 aircraft. According to former Junkers test pilot Hans-Joachim Pancherz' logbook, the Ju 390 V1 was brought to Prague immediately after it had been displayed at Insterburg to the Fuhrer, and while there took part in a number of test flights, which continued until March 1944, including tests of in-flight refueling. The project was cancelled in mid-1944. The Ju 390 V1 was returned to Dessau in November 1944, where it was destroyed in late April 1945 as the American Army approached. The second prototype V2 (RC+DA), was longer than the V1 because it was constructed from a Ju 290 airframe. It was fitted for maritime patrol. Interestingly the photo snapped of RC+DA was taken during an attack on a Malta Convoy, suggesting this aircraft was possibly operated by LTS.290 in North Africa. The photo clearly shows a white "Afrika" band. The photo was taken by merchant seaman Ron Whylie whilst his convoy KMF-5 was under attack in late 1942. The date alone disrupts claims that the first flight was made in 1943. A copy of his photo of RC+DA was long held by the Museum of Military History in Vienna and published by German test pilot Hans Werner Lerche in his autobiography. There are several wild tales involving Ju 390s in the Internet. A Ju 390, which may or may not have been the V2, is claimed by some to have made a test flight from Germany to Cape Town in early 1944. The sole source for the story is a article which appeared in the "Daily Telegraph" in 1969 titled "Lone Bomber Raid on New York Planned by Hitler", in which Hans Pancherz reportedly claimed to have made the flight in question, in company with an air to air refueling aircraft [Ju-290 reg CE+YZ] in January 1944. According to the book "German Aircraft of the Second World War" by J.R.Smith and Anthony L.Kay, the Ju 390 V2 went in January 1944 to FAGr 5 at Mont-de-Marsan for operational evaluation, from where it made a claimed flight to within 12 miles of New York. Other sources say that the recon flight to NY was on 27 August 1943, from Norway. What is a fact its that FaG 5 was disbanded in August 1944 when airbases in France were threatened by the Allies. FaG's Ju 290s and 390s were passed to KG 200, a special missions unit. Several interesting missions are attributed to the Ju 390, including liaison flights to Japan. While confirmation is lacking [not surprising for KG 200, a special ops unit)] Ju 290A-9s are known to have completed these missions. The V2 was standing by at Rechlin to evacuate Nazi VIPs to Spain in April of 1945. While a Ju 290A-5 actually made the flight to Spain, the V2 was not reported to have been located after the war. One account says the V2 was flown from Poland with German scientists and a secret centrifuge which ionized mercury(project Cronos/Laternenträge) to Bodo, Norway, where it was repainted in Swedish colors, and then flown with mid-air refueling to a ranch in Paysandu Province, Uruguay. The landing was witnessed by a Polish diplomat. The aircraft was then dismantled and sunk in the Uruguay River, where it is said to remain to this day.
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I can't help with the antennae but the aircraft was Ju 90 V7 (Werknr.4919) coded GF+GH which spent a lot of its life at Rechlin before joining the Luftwaffe.
The photo also appears in the Junkers book below.
No signs of tail aerials in photo during test flights in Oct 1941 (load dropping) but the photo caption in the book dates it to 1942.
Source: Junkers Grossflugzeuge (Nowarra) - Motorbuch Verlag ISBN 3613012243
The photo also appears in the Junkers book below.
No signs of tail aerials in photo during test flights in Oct 1941 (load dropping) but the photo caption in the book dates it to 1942.
Source: Junkers Grossflugzeuge (Nowarra) - Motorbuch Verlag ISBN 3613012243
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Thanks!
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Just as a clue: The photo of the RC+DA is often regarded as a pre-photoshop photo composition, see also
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/junkers-ju-290-and-390-variants.4887/post-188256
Not even the Kössler/Ott book ("Die großen Dessauer") gives a definite answer, if a second prototype was
ever finished. In that book, a document is cited, that states, that "due to the cancellation of the program, the already
accumulated expenditures for the fuselage and tooling/jigs have to be billed to the department for war damages".
This could be regarded as quite a clear evidence, that the second prototype perhaps was near completion, but not
actually finished.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/junkers-ju-290-and-390-variants.4887/post-188256
Not even the Kössler/Ott book ("Die großen Dessauer") gives a definite answer, if a second prototype was
ever finished. In that book, a document is cited, that states, that "due to the cancellation of the program, the already
accumulated expenditures for the fuselage and tooling/jigs have to be billed to the department for war damages".
This could be regarded as quite a clear evidence, that the second prototype perhaps was near completion, but not
actually finished.
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The Junkers Putnam by Antony Kay simply states that the V2 was never flown as the programme was cancelled in July 1944. He doesn't specifically state that the airframe was completed, but he is vague on the subject, "the V2 prototype never flew since, by July 1944, the whole programme was closed down."
V1 GH+UK did not fly until October 1943 so its likely that RC+DA with its modified fuselage would have been further away from completion. The fact it didn't turn up in 1945 into Western Allied hands is a strong hint that it remained at Dessau where the Soviets got their hands on the airframe.
V1 GH+UK did not fly until October 1943 so its likely that RC+DA with its modified fuselage would have been further away from completion. The fact it didn't turn up in 1945 into Western Allied hands is a strong hint that it remained at Dessau where the Soviets got their hands on the airframe.
Airborne2001
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Very good information! Thanks for sharing!
nuuumannn
Cannae be ar*ed changing my personal text
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I suspect the majority of this is fiction, so take with a large dose of salt. Only one Ju 390 was completed and it was made by combining Ju 90 components. This is confirmed by a British Intelligence report, within which Prof Hertel states that only one was completed. The second, purpose built airframe was begun, but not completed and likely scrapped at the end of the war.
The Ju 390 V1 first flew on 20 October 1943, but reports of the flight to the New York coast are as likely to have never happened. The rumour that it might have has come from a couple of different individuals and repeated in print, but there is no evidence the flight took place. A British intelligence report states this flight might have taken place based on German personnel interrogated, but questions its veracity. The book Luftwaffe KG 200 The German Air Force's Most Secret Unit of World War Two (Geoffrey Thomas and Barry Ketley, Hikoki, 2003) also questions that it took place in the chapter titled Flights of Fancy: Operations KG 200 Did Not Do [italics original to the title] based on the British Intelligence report and the sparcity of factual information surrounding the claim subsequent to the war's end, particularly its sketchy origins coming from the same individuals. Personnel interrogated after the war that operated Ju 290s out of Mont de Marsan fail to mention any such flight, although the '290 itself conducted many long ranging fights that can be verified. The aircraft is listed as having been flown by KG 200 personnel, including references to logbooks, but no mention anywhere of a long range flight close to the USA, which, under the circumstances surely would have warranted such a mention.
As for its making a flight to South America and its destruction in Uruguay, again, a work of fiction. In April 1945 the Ju 390 V1 was set on fire and destroyed at Dessau to prevent it from falling into Allied hands.
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Yes, they had idea to equip the Bomber with small fighters
That defending the bomber from hostile fighters and return to bomber
Another proposal was carry Small bomber that attack target
I don't know if that was as Mistel-Gespann or Selbstopferung
As Parasite Fighter was planned the Messerschmitt Me 328
What failures would those be? The SPB dive bomber seems to hae been very successful, considering the materiel available and th war situation.
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Here the subject was about parasite fighters defending the mothership bomber. Zveno -1 to -7 were such endeavours and were not successes.
The Zveno-SPB 'Combined Dive Bomber' is the only Zveno which was reasonably successful, but it wasn't a defend-the-mothership concept. It is irrelevant to the point raised in posts # 63 & 64.
Instead, as its name 'Sostavnoi Pikiruyuschiy Bombardirovschik' says, SPB was about ferrying dive bombers to distances they couldn't reach on their own.
To avoid further nitpicking, I'll edit my post #65.
The Zveno-SPB 'Combined Dive Bomber' is the only Zveno which was reasonably successful, but it wasn't a defend-the-mothership concept. It is irrelevant to the point raised in posts # 63 & 64.
Instead, as its name 'Sostavnoi Pikiruyuschiy Bombardirovschik' says, SPB was about ferrying dive bombers to distances they couldn't reach on their own.
To avoid further nitpicking, I'll edit my post #65.
Airborne2001
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Credit to Wikipedia:
While I understand that this is from Wikipedia, I still have not come across an explanation for what this is referring to. The source is "Griehl 2006, p. 203". A thread I saw on ww2aircraft.net suspected that they might have been ones intended for Japan, but I am skeptical about that.* I have my doubts mainly because I have only heard about Japan being fully committed to the Ju-390, and an axishistory.com user stated in a thread that the Ju-290 was turned down because of concerns over getting them to Japan over Russia.** Does anyone here have an answer to what these final Ju-290's were for?
*https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/fate-of-3-ju-290s-produced-late-in-the-war.45266/
**https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=102549
"Germany's Last Ju 290s
Despite the end of reconnaissance operations from France and the Amerika bomber program, starting in September 1944 three more Ju 290s were constructed for "special purposes" by Junkers. Their works numbers are unknown. What those "special purposes" were, or if they ever came to be, is unknown."While I understand that this is from Wikipedia, I still have not come across an explanation for what this is referring to. The source is "Griehl 2006, p. 203". A thread I saw on ww2aircraft.net suspected that they might have been ones intended for Japan, but I am skeptical about that.* I have my doubts mainly because I have only heard about Japan being fully committed to the Ju-390, and an axishistory.com user stated in a thread that the Ju-290 was turned down because of concerns over getting them to Japan over Russia.** Does anyone here have an answer to what these final Ju-290's were for?
*https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/fate-of-3-ju-290s-produced-late-in-the-war.45266/
**https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=102549
Hi Dan,
It might be worth noting that the German text indicates that this is a design using bondary layer control, I presume by suction. The curves at the bottom show the estimated blower power required to achieve certain clmax values for different configurations.
Wing area is stated as 184 m^2 in the diagram, by the way.
I believe there were trials with a Fieseler Storch using such a system at a much smaller scale, but I have no idea if there was any Junkers connection. The "Saugstorch" ('suction stork' was covered by an article in one of the early Luftfahrt International issues, if I remember correctly.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
It might be worth noting that the German text indicates that this is a design using bondary layer control, I presume by suction. The curves at the bottom show the estimated blower power required to achieve certain clmax values for different configurations.
Wing area is stated as 184 m^2 in the diagram, by the way.
I believe there were trials with a Fieseler Storch using such a system at a much smaller scale, but I have no idea if there was any Junkers connection. The "Saugstorch" ('suction stork'
was covered by an article in one of the early Luftfahrt International issues, if I remember correctly.Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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The order to cancel Ju 290 production (along with a handful of other types) seems to have been given by the Jaegerstab prior to the Kommando der Erprobungsstellen der Luftwaffe meeting on May 27, 1944, since it's discussed at that meeting.
Then at a Jaegerstab meeting on July 1, 1944, presided over by Goering, the Ju 290 is included in a much longer list of types that have been cancelled, including: Ju 288, Ju 390, Ta 154, Ta 254, Me 410, Hs 129, Ju 87, He 111 (production to run until Jan 45), Ju 352, Bf 108, Ar 96, Ar 196, BV 222, BV 238, Do 24, Do 26 and Go 242.
A memo from the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe Generalquartiermeister (Nr. 9241/44) of September 10, 1944, includes the Ju 290 in a list of types allowed to remain in service until their spares run out; other types on the list are the Ar 66, Go 145, Ju 87 D/G, Hs 129, Fw 58 B, Ju 88 bomber variants, Fw 189, Do 217, Me 410, Fw 200, Ar 196, BV 138, Do 24, Ju 52, Bf 108, DFS 230, Bu 131, Kl 35, W 34 hi, older Bf 110s and He 111s.
It is further noted that the Ju 290, Fw 200, Ju 352, Me 410, He 177 A-3/A-5, Hs 129, Fw 189, Do 217, BV 138, Ar 196, He 111 P, D and H-1 to 5, and Bf 110 older versions are to be withdrawn from service in spring 1945 regardless of spares, while the Ar 66, Go 145, Ju 87 D/G, Fw 58 B, Ju 88 (all variants), Ju 188, He 111 H-6 to 20, Ju 52, Bf 108, Bu 131, KL 35, Do 24 and W 34 hi can remain in service until the end of 1945 (!).
There is no mention anywhere in the high-level meetings of three additional Ju 290s being built for 'special purposes' - the production line was supposed to have been halted with immediate effect at the end of May 1944.
Griehl had a habit of putting tantalysing snippets like this into his books but then failing to back them up with any verifiable source which would allow others to check his work. The book referenced by Wikipedia, Luftwaffe Over America, has a little note at the back which says "A listing of the approximately 5,500 individual original documents consulted has not been included for reasons of space". Unfortunate.
It's not impossible that despite the desperate situation in September 1944, when all available resources were urgently needed for fighters, and when Junkers was gearing up to mass produce the He 162 and Me 163 (which it had taken off Messerschmitt), for reasons unknown the Ju 290 production line was reopened and three more were made. But it seems somewhat unlikely. Unless any primary source evidence emerges to verify Griehl's claim, I would regard it with a degree of skepticism rather than treating it as absolute fact.
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Hi Dan,
It might be worth noting that the German text indicates that this is a design using bondary layer control, I presume by suction. The curves at the bottom show the estimated blower power required to achieve certain clmax values for different configurations.
Wing area is stated as 184 m^2 in the diagram, by the way.
I believe there were trials with a Fieseler Storch using such a system at a much smaller scale, but I have no idea if there was any Junkers connection. The "Saugstorch" ('suction stork'
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Thanks - yes, I have copies of a few original reports on the Absaugeflugzeug AF2. You can just about see its internal structure in the photo I've defaced and appended below.
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Some British ADI(K) notes on the Ju 290. The last one indicates that the Ju 290 probably wasn't a great choice for anti-shipping missions: "Signal H.M.S. Biter [Royal Navy escort carrier] WX 16415 [presumably the convoy number] - 17/2/44. Ju 290 attacked convoy with 2 Hs 293. Wildcat shot one engine out of airframe."
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Airborne2001
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Okay, thank you for the informative reply.
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Is it possible that the 'additional airframes' were so far along construction that a decision was made to complete them? More work to break them up in other words.
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The Lieferplan of May 15, 1944 (which is just before the type was cancelled), shows 8 x Ju 290 A-1, 5 x Ju 290 A-3, 5 x Ju 290 A-4, 11 x Ju 290 A-5, 9 x Ju 290 A-7s and 3 x Ju 290 A-9s built up to that point. Total production = 41. There was then a gap in production, with no new Ju 290s in April or May 1944.
From this point, two more A-7s are expected to be built in June and another two in July, for a total of 13 A-7s (total projected production 45).
The final variant, and the only one expected to be in production after July 1944 is the A-8. Production was supposed to start in August with two built, then continue at a rate of 3 per month till March 1945, when just two would be built - for a total of 22 Ju 290 A-8s.
This would have brought the overall total to 67 Ju 290s built by March 1945.
Even if production was stopped at the end of May, as seems likely, there were still, probably, some bits produced for the four A-7s due to be constructed in June and July. It has been suggested, though, that one was actually completed in June (Werk Nr. 195) and one in July (Werk Nr. 196) - which presumably would have used up most of whatever components were left.
It therefore seems, again, pretty unlikely that any further Ju 290s were built in September 1944 - production topping out at 43 examples by the end of July.
Apparently some major Ju 290 assemblies were constructed by Letov in Czechoslovakia, and after the war they did have enough parts to assemble a single Ju 290 as a passenger aircraft, dubbed the L-290 Orel - but I guess that's another story.
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Thanks, that clarifies things.
Ivan Culjak
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Actaully, the idea of parasite fighters was seriously researched even after WW2 - FICON project, Project Tom-Tom, XF-85 Goblin....
aviatorRicky
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The aircraft in your diagram seems to be the
Ju90V5, 4917,
Reg D-ABNS, first flight 05.12.1939
KH+XB, 08.41, 12.41, broken up during WWII
It was the first attempt to break away from the swept back wing of the Ju89 design. similar to the JU290 wing only much shorter span. Only speculating perhaps it was a failed attempt to create a Ju90 with higher airspeed?
Ju90V5, 4917,
Reg D-ABNS, first flight 05.12.1939
KH+XB, 08.41, 12.41, broken up during WWII
It was the first attempt to break away from the swept back wing of the Ju89 design. similar to the JU290 wing only much shorter span. Only speculating perhaps it was a failed attempt to create a Ju90 with higher airspeed?
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Also on Flieger Revue Extra 93,
a Ju-290Z drawing.
a Ju-290Z drawing.
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That is probably the ugliest glazed nose in history. Also, I was unaware until now that the ventral nose gondola was offset!Just posted by the San Diego Air & Space Museum (SDASM) on their Flickr Photostream from the Jack Canary collection, a couple of color photos of the captured Junkers Ju-290 (Ju-290A-5, to be exact) "Alles Kaputt." Plenty of other color gems in this collection. Check them out here (link)
View: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/8663875906/in/photostream
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