Ju EF82 Info request.

Artie Bob said:
Esentially all WWII full size aircraft engines were supercharged.

Sorry, what I meant, were superchargers for high altitudes, in German parlance "Höhenlader"
(high altitude super chargers ?), so as you explained, two-stage or variable speed.
Those often needed discreet installation, as in the Fw 190 C or the Bv 155, which were fitted
with their own intakes.
 
My opinion
Please note reconsideration of wingspan and lenght measures--- :)
 

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Great work Justo. I would just propose to replace the fixed 20mm MG 151 with 7,9 mm MG 17.
AFAIK this kind of armament was rather meant to deter enemy aircraft attacking from the rear,
and not really to shoot them down.
 
Hi all...
I've started the key-lining as per Justo's drawings.


I ask if the tail guns are installed, how would the tail wheel arrangement be affected?
Also would the tail guns be deleted if the arrester hook was installed on the carrier-based version?


Many thanks
P
 

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"Great work Justo. I would just propose to replace the fixed 20mm MG 151 with 7,9 mm MG 17.
AFAIK this kind of armament was rather meant to deter enemy aircraft attacking from the rear,
and not really to shoot them down."

No deter ....kill
 

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Many thanks Justo...
Silly me.


P
 

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Justo Miranda said:
No deter ....kill

Of course, killing an enemy was always the goal ! But as the EF 82 was a project from the early years of the
war, armament probably would have been similar to that, of the aircraft then in use. Fixed rearward firing guns
weer actually installed in a number of aircraft, AFAIK mainly He 111, in the form of a single MG 17 in the tail cone.
So, killing an attacker with such a weapon was possible, but not very likely. The raison d'etre was, to throw off the
attacker just when he was aligned to his target in the best way, by sending a stream of tracers at him. The German
bomber crews called this weapon "Vogelscheuche" (scarecrow) and because it was found to be of limited value only,
only relatively few bomber (mainly He 111) were fitted with it. That's what I've read and I couldn't find any confirmation
for a kill with it. I think, at least some of the Martin Marylands in British use had rearward firing guns, too, installed in
the engine nacelles, AFAIK, with similar results.
Rearward facing armamment as in the Ar 234 C-5 maybe was a different story. IIRC, due to the short time, that was
available in fast jets for aiming and firing at slower targets, the idea of rearward guns came up again, but now for a
much more offensive purpose. But I'm quite sure, that those reasons wouldn't have effected the EF 82 ! Only other
reason I can envisage, would be shooting at a target after pull-up from a dive bombing attack.
 
In a chronologoical sense, you are right. In this case, it does not make sense to talk about a rear view telescope, but of a rear view mirror. :D
 
Justo Miranda said:
... In this case, it does not make sense to talk about a rear view telescope, but of a rear view mirror. :D

I agree and actually I'm feeling a little bit guilty, because it was me, who started this discussion about a fixed
rearward firing gun. As I wrote, this idea was triggered, by the thing on top of the canopy. Can't remember a
German type with an external rearview mirror in the moment, so I though it might serve another purpose.
BTW, after a little digging, I found an article in Luftfahrt International N° 22 about the development of fixed
rearward armament in the German airforce. it was seen as a reinforcement of the standard armament, not
only for bombers, but also fighters. It's from a report written in 1941, sounding very positive and obviously
the solution against attacks from the rear. Seems, that in reality things turned out to be a little bit different ...
Who's interested in this article (in German language) just drop a PM.
 
Brilliant contributions. ;D




For what its worth, I've started a bit of shade work.


P
 

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Stings & Flamethrowers... ;)
 

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Hi Flitzer
I have made a more accurate calculation and believe that the tailplane should be widened to 2235 mm. span. :)
 

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Thanks Justo...will do. :)


Any further thoughts on the tail wheel and the 'hook'?


P
 
Here's a photo of the rearview telescope (caption says "fitted to the roof of the He 111 cockpit
(streamlined fairing removed)") from the mentioned article. Although it seems to protrude highre
from the cockpit, than in the model of the EF 82, the mentioned fairing could be seen as an evidence,
because for a simple rearview mirror it would be quite an expenditure. Whatever it is, looking at the
model more closely, I think, it is off-centre, shifted somewhat to the right. That again would make more
sense for an aiming device, than for a rearview mirror, because of the obstruction by the fin.
 

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Justo Miranda said:
Stings & Flamethrowers... ;)

I remember reading about that flamethrower, supposedly they tried it during the Battle of Britain without much success, it seems that British pilots interpreted the flame as battle damage.
 
Graham1973 said:
..., it seems that British pilots interpreted the flame as battle damage.

.. which in itself could have safed the bomber from further attacks !
 
Very interesting!!
Another German aircraft I was unaware of :eek:

It appeared to be a much more refined design than the Ju 87 and much less complicated than the Ju 187!

The Luftwaffe could have done with such a design, long before the Ju 87 was long obsolete and vulnerable!! The RLM was a real basket case :eek:


Regards
Pioneer
 
Do you understand that this design probably could not get off the ground, literally. The problem is not with the aerodynamic design or layout, but the engine which never came close to being a production item. The most important wartime Jumos, i.e. Jumo 211, Jumo 213, Jumo 222, Jumo 004, all were behind schedule in relation to what was promised by JFM to the RLM. All through WW II it appears the real pacing item for aircraft development and production was engine availiblity. JFM did another series of piston engined ground attack designs (somewhere around EF 110), but they were based on engines not available. RLM would really have seemed incompetent if they had proceeded with production of a major combat type if the engines were not available. Oh, but they did do that, planning for 1942 production of the Ju 288. It was cancelled primarily because the JUMO 222 was not available as scheduled. Who was at fault, the RLM or JFM? Remember, most of what we have been told about the German aircraft industry has come to us from the aircraft companies, they seem to have been very good at finding others to blame for whatever problems they had (there was an epidemic of that at the end of WW II in Germany). The real reasons for many of the problems are not simple and the evidence for what really happened have been buried beneath a huge pile of myths and lies.
Best Regards,
Artie Bob
 
A bit more progress (?)...


Artie Bob, I think one could say this design along with most of the others couldn't have got off the ground because of the reasons you give and I'm sure there are many other reasons. With no engine(s) its a real 'bugger' ;) .


For me I do these profiles just to see what the subject may have looked like if they had come in to reality and nothing more than that. ;)
Of course without Justo's and Jen's, amongst others, massive help and guidance my illustrations would not get off the ground either... :D

P
 

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Justo Miranda said:
Another dinosaur extracted from the rock to be exposed to the experts curiosity... ;D


Was the T Rex a hunter or a scavenger? :eek: :)
 
Progress update.
More or less finished now.
Rear view mirror to finish on top and front views.


Many thanks to everyone.
Peter
 

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smilie_verl_038.gif
 
Many thanks all, but I think there are many here that deserve massive credit for the way they have come up with brilliant advice and Justo's hard work providing the keyline 3 views.


Without it, it wouldn't have been possible...what; me on my own in charge of colours and a computer...oh dear.
Very much a joint effort I'm glad to report.


I really do enjoy doing this.


P ;D
 
Flitzer said:
it is a ground attack and dive-bomber but I don't think it was based on the Ju187
I am the happy owner of a copy of the book "Stukas!"* by Herbert Léonard, Heimdal publ. 1997... and I don't find inside the Ju EF82, even in the many unbuilt projects that are presented, and even in the "false Stukas" chapter of airplanes having dive bombing as secondary mission, despite their big weight and big wing loading. I may ask Herbert Léonard if the EF82 was still unknown in 1997 or if it was rejected for some good reason, that may be interesting for all of us.
* : http://www.priceminister.com/offer/buy/521885/Leonard-Herbert-Les-Stukas-Livre.html (8 times cheaper than on another site...) out of print it seems, but wonderful!
 
Many thanks Tophe.
It would be nice to know one way or another.


Still a wind tunnel model may suggest it was taken seriously?


I've just spotted the Stuka thread and seen the BV185. Just what I needed for a new profile. ;D


P
 
From what is written in Wolfgang Wagner's "Hugo Junker - Pionier der Luftfahrt - Seine Flugzeuge",
Junkers did a lot of aerodynamical research in the windtunnel, each of those designs were designated
as "EFo xx", later "EF xx". Often just basic configurations were examined, not always relating to a real
project or even an order by the RLM. But the fact, that in the mentioned book several of those models
are shown with a Luftwaffe livery (Artie Bob was absolutely right !) , suggests, that they at least were
shown to Luftwaffe officials, maybe as a kind of unsolicited proposals.
 

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