I recall senior executives stating the explicit point of LM buying sikorsky was to get the helicopter systems integration business, and not the helicopter sales businessI think its much more about the adoption of open systems architecture which was viewed as an essential requirement by government for through life, cost effective support. Sikorsky didn't seem to want to offer this - its a different business model that potentially has less down stream income.
Sad, if true. Ironically LMCO did not loose as they are part of the Bell team. Since they are not part of the air vehicle development team ... one wonders at what part of the program they are working? Interesting things going on behind corporate doors to be sure.I recall senior executives stating the explicit point of LM buying sikorsky was to get the helicopter systems integration business, and not the helicopter sales businessI think its much more about the adoption of open systems architecture which was viewed as an essential requirement by government for through life, cost effective support. Sikorsky didn't seem to want to offer this - its a different business model that potentially has less down stream income.
While Sikorsky’s proposed price is lower, the offer is based on an unacceptable engineering design. Additionally, Sikorsky’s cost realism could not be fully assessed due to their unacceptable approach, which is therefore indicative of cost and performance risk. In contrast, Bell’s proposed price, in comparison to the design’s independent government estimate, is reasonable and provides the best value to the government.
Enough said. Engineering Design and Development for the Sikorsky/Boeing SB>1 was found to be unacceptable. The redacted portion of the document lays out in detail just how unacceptable the proposal was.
From only reading the report you posted, it looks like it was pretty straight forward, honestly. It's not really technical speak, but I suppose it helps to be familiar with it."...Sikorsky’s cost realism could not be fully assessed due to their unacceptable approach, which is therefore indicative of cost and performance risk. "
I wish there was more plain speak in the document. As in: "The Army felt that the incomplete documentation made Sikorsky's cost value numbers suspect." I also think there is more to the unacceptable approach of the technical assessment that was not brought up in the GAO document due to other competitive efforts ongoing.
@_Del_ - Thank you for these great insights. Your comments make me go back to my question regarding the disperity between two corporate methodologies for proposal writing as they merge. As with many I suspect there were significant differences in philosophy.Enough said. Engineering Design and Development for the Sikorsky/Boeing SB>1 was found to be unacceptable. The redacted portion of the document lays out in detail just how unacceptable the proposal was.From only reading the report you posted, it looks like it was pretty straight forward, honestly. It's not really technical speak, but I suppose it helps to be familiar with it."...Sikorsky’s cost realism could not be fully assessed due to their unacceptable approach, which is therefore indicative of cost and performance risk. "
I wish there was more plain speak in the document. As in: "The Army felt that the incomplete documentation made Sikorsky's cost value numbers suspect." I also think there is more to the unacceptable approach of the technical assessment that was not brought up in the GAO document due to other competitive efforts ongoing.
From the section right below the scoring graphic you posted:
[i[The SSEB found that Sikorsky “did not provide allocation of functions below the system level of the logical architecture representing an incomplete functional decomposition, allocation, and traceability for the definition, application, and use of system functions.”
The SSEB noted that “it is unclear to the evaluators how the subsystems and components and their boundaries were determined,” and further concluded:
Overall, the functional architecture provided by Sikorsky did not demonstrate an adequate approach to meet the requirements of the solicitation and deferred the work scope to the Weapon System Development Program where the functional architecture would be more fully defined. These significant weaknesses and weaknesses [sic] resulted from insufficient evidence and inadequately defined scope to determine how Sikorsky’s proposed architecture would meet the government’s MOSA and architecture requirements and presents a cost and schedule impact resulting in an unacceptable risk during the Weapon System Development Program. [/i]
I've been part of teams that have won based on our documentation, even when the other team may have had a better product and competitive offer. I've also been on the other side where whoever was writing and reviewing the documentation did a piss poor job despite of the strength of our bid.
They might have been able to survive the delays in the demonstration program or subpar bid-writing, but you cannot expect to survive both. Really, there's zero excuse for two Primes the size of LM and Sikorski to fumble bid-writing this badly. They should have literal teams of people writing these bids and going over them with fine-tooth combs. I've been in a company so small that it would literally have an engineer write their own bid paper work and have it reviewed and edited by a small number of competent people before submission to massage it. I don't remember ever seeing something quite as stark as the bolded above coming back in scoring.
Shortest summary ever came shortly afterward:
"While Sikorsky’s proposed price is lower, the offer is based on an unacceptable engineering design. Additionally, Sikorsky’s cost realism could not be fully assessed due to their unacceptable approach, which is therefore indicative of cost and performance risk"
Still think the design approach was the right fork to turn down (compared to tilt-rotor), but the design has to work and be affordable, and when you don't acceptably demonstrate and document either of those things, there is no way to win a competition, and little argument to be made for overturning the result.
Has there ever been a mention of expected unit cost for both teams? I’ve only ever seen a YouTube video that mentioned the Valour will be half or two thirds the price of the V-22 Osprey.
Half or two thirds the price of the Osprey? That will be good going if Bell can get the Valor delivered to the end users on time and within budget, considering what happened during the Osprey's flight test program.
On Wednesday, Bush told subcommittee Chairman Rob Wittman (R-VA) the delays are quality-control-related. Subvendors of General Electric have had trouble making new components with new methods, such as 3D printing, in a way that ensures the engines are up to par for being used in test aircraft.
Well, at least they didn't try to blame it on COVID.
*Sigh* here we go again. Almost as popular as scout helicopter programs.Army evaluating future of heavy-lift helicopters
The US Army is taking a look at possible avenues to pursue a future heavy-lift aircraft.www.defensenews.com
FVL-Heavy is going to be painful, no way around it. There's going to be sticker shock to spare and the Army's going to have a big uphill battle getting it over the line. So coming to the table with as many "No, seriously, we NEED this" studies as they can makes some sense.*Sigh* here we go again. Almost as popular as scout helicopter programs.Army evaluating future of heavy-lift helicopters
The US Army is taking a look at possible avenues to pursue a future heavy-lift aircraft.www.defensenews.com
IMO Sikorsky would REALLY have to screw the pooch to lose FARA.I am not sure Bell has the bandwidth to do both FLRAA and FARA. Honestly I would really like to see Sikorsky get the nod for FARA as the smaller coaxial compound hopefully will scale better. Mostly I really would like to retain three prime OEM (with MD and others) in the wings.
See my cynicism here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sikorsky-s-97-raider.22916/page-9#post-593725
Personally I think AVX/L3 should have been kept in the competition. L3 is a proven contractor with deep pockets, AVX's designs seem more evolutionary than revolutionary in spite of it's looks, and it would help another potential competitor get off the ground.IMO Sikorsky would REALLY have to screw the pooch to lose FARA.I am not sure Bell has the bandwidth to do both FLRAA and FARA. Honestly I would really like to see Sikorsky get the nod for FARA as the smaller coaxial compound hopefully will scale better. Mostly I really would like to retain three prime OEM (with MD and others) in the wings.
See my cynicism here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sikorsky-s-97-raider.22916/page-9#post-593725
I honestly don’t know why the US Army doesn’t just start buying S-92s to replace their older Blackhawks… run it as a parallel fleet to FLRAA.The Blackhawk is dead! Long live the Blackhawk!
The production line is no more. The S-92 was not built to military standards. It was designed to assume a military role, but none of the military elected to pursue it. A great "what if" conversation with cigars and scotch whiskey could be had.I honestly don’t know why the US Army doesn’t just start buying S-92s to replace their older Blackhawks… run it as a parallel fleet to FLRAA.The Blackhawk is dead! Long live the Blackhawk!
I honestly don’t know why the US Army doesn’t just start buying S-92s to replace their older Blackhawks… run it as a parallel fleet to FLRAA.The Blackhawk is dead! Long live the Blackhawk!
The production line is no more.
Canada's attempt has not been smoothest sailing.The production line is no more. The S-92 was not built to military standards. It was designed to assume a military role, but none of the military elected to pursue it. A great "what if" conversation with cigars and scotch whiskey could be had.
Lidar and Hyperspectral sensing. Cool. Can anyone guess the range.RAIVEN: Sensing at the edge and beyond the pixel with embedded hyperspectral imaging and artificial intelligence - Breaking Defense
For Future Vertical Lift, the Army wants new and innovative technology that transforms their platforms into advanced weapons systems. One such technology is Raytheon Technologies’ revolutionary RAIVEN Turret 1000, first in a new family of EO/IR systems.breakingdefense.com
sponsored and doesnt mention proximity warnings
The S-92 devolved into a bloated mess and has thoroughly outgrown its rotor system. Its a compromised design that tried too hard to alternately leverage "proven Blackhawk heritage" vs "new advanced technology" depending on the audience.The production line is no more. The S-92 was not built to military standards. It was designed to assume a military role, but none of the military elected to pursue it. A great "what if" conversation with cigars and scotch whiskey could be had.I honestly don’t know why the US Army doesn’t just start buying S-92s to replace their older Blackhawks… run it as a parallel fleet to FLRAA.The Blackhawk is dead! Long live the Blackhawk!
LOL - A photo that neither vendor is too keen on having done. Have to wait till ~2026.I would love to see some pictures of Valor next to a Blackhawk.