Japan's FS-X (Fighter Support-Experimental) Program

[Grey Havoc]

Glad to be of help.

In relation to my previous post, perhaps I should have said instead "that the two companies had at least an informal partnership before the latter was parachuted into the competition".

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I was referring to Blackkite's post ;D

 

[Grey Havoc]

Woops.

 

[blackkite]

Thanks Gray. You are beginner of this topic. I am studying and posting.
Thanks owner for your appreciation.

 

[Grey Havoc]

A question has occurred to me; Where were the Germans, especially Dornier, during the saga that was FSX?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

A question has occurred to me; Where were the Germans, especially Dornier, during the saga that was FSX?

An odd question -FS-X is pretty well documented. Dornier had no relevant product to offer the Japanese unless you are thinking about the Northrop/Dornier ND-102 which was a "paper design".

Germany via Panavia were offering Tornado, which made sense for the declared specs.

Tornado was short-listed alongside F-16 and F-18 for off-the-shelf licensed purchase. None met the spec completely and were rejected.Japan favoured developing an indigenous fighter (Mitsubishi), but were eventually persuaded to a joint development with the US of the F-16 by intense political pressure. In a valiant rearguard action, they shoehorned on enough indigenous equipment to make FS-X very uneconomic.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Indeed it was the ND-102 design I was thinking of in particular, since it had only been shelved in 1984 or thereabouts.

(h/t FrankM)

 

[Deino]

Original FS-X was an early Eurofighter like with two vertical tails, but it was too ambitious and too expensive. Than japanese government decided to modify existing aircraft (F-15, F-16, F/A-18 and Tornado were considered). For example SX-3 looks like F-16CCV and FX-4 like two engined F-16. Deino posted F/A-18 derivate.

My first picture shows Mitsubishi F-1X proposal and second is probably the source of a lot of japanese YF-23 what ifs - scaled down test model for self recovery flight control system from JDA TRDI.

This will be my new web update but as usual - I dont have enoug time to finish it :-\

I finally found a few more images of that FI-X wind-tunnel model !

 

[hesham]

Wow,very nice,thank you my dear Deino.

 

[flateric]

...

 

[Steve Pace]

...

Thanks for your post but I can't make much out of it - too blurry and I can't read it. -SP

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Its still from a video of a Mitsubishi FS-X configuration.

 

[hosscara]

Politically, what is the US view of Japan going ahead with this indigenous fighter programme? Remember the US DoD attempts in the late 80s to derail, undermine & prevent the Japanese from developing their own A/C.
Stumbled across this interesting read: http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/2007/MR612.2part2.pdf
Situation is now very different, what do think is the latest US view of these developments?

 

[RAP]

Early drawing of the FS-X from 1988 AWST.

 

[RAP]

Some F-16J information from a General Dynamics brochure.

 

[RAP]

...

 

[VictorXL188]

I Found this reference (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...sig=ACfU3U0kRNw7lk6hG57DBWJ-OT0FuWbKBA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizr_m7pqjlAhUiQUEAHSOWD0AQ6AEwCnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=p-xl%20indigenous%20maritime%20patrol%20aircraft&f=false) whilst looking into the P-XL. According to the extract of the book ( Troubled Partnership: A History of US - Japan Collaboration on the FS-X Fighter) the intial basis of the Hi-no-maru or Rising Sun fighter was to be of a single seat twin-engined canard configuration with twin-canted stabilizing fins. It was to feature indigenous control systems, probably developed from those under test on the F-1CCV

I attach the GA of this 1985 design from the TRDI

 

[blackkite]

Mitsubishi FS-X proposal called JF-210 model pictures.

雑誌における国産FSXイラスト及び写真まとめ

ネットでよく見るモノ目新しいモノを中心に。2017年11月11日、再編集

togetter.com

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

http://www.hikojour.jp/hikojourBC/hikojourBC0208.html

 

[sienar]

Hi!

http://www.hikojour.jp/hikojourBC/hikojourBC0208.html

View attachment 625904View attachment 625905

There is a pretty interesting photo on that linked page. The side view of the A6M with the following text: "堀越二郎氏自筆零戦"

According to a web translator that is a drawing made by Jiro himself. Can you verify that this translation is correct? And is there anything written on the drawing that gives an indication of year?

The carb/oil cooler on the bottom of the cowling is unlike any A6M I am aware of. If this is an original period drawing it may depict one of the early proto/pre-production zeros.

 

[blackkite]

Your attention is wonderful. It is true that this drawing is a plan of zero fighter of the handwriting of Jiro Horikoshi engineer.
Unfortunately I have no more information about this drawing.

 

[blackkite]

Jiro Horikoshi loved golf.

零戦設計者、堀越二郎の軌跡：時事ドットコム

堀越の零戦のスケッチ＝2014年3月【時事通信社】

www.jiji.com

 

[hesham]

From L+K 11/1992.

 

[RAP]

...

 

[hiton]

There is a very interesting report from a person who visited the ATLA (formerly TRDI) Aeronautical Equipment Laboratory. A wind tunnel test model similar to (or the same as) this FS-X scale model (commonly called "五社案=Five company plans") currently in MHI's archive room is still stored in the aeronautical equipment laboratory data room. And there was evidence that the model actually did a wind tunnel test. Possibly, it is possible that the CFD images may be based on a test using an actual wind tunnel model rather than just a computational model on a computer.
Unfortunately the documentation at the time of development seems to have been destroyed ... I hope it will be public someday.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1232226010319343616

https://twitter.com/x/status/1232253005845524480

Hi!

http://www.hikojour.jp/hikojourBC/hikojourBC0208.html

View attachment 625904View attachment 625905

 

[F-2]

...

Apparently they managed to give the F-2 similar maneuverability without the Vertical Canards by enlarging the wings and flaps using the FBW. The F-2 has a decoupled yaw switch in the cockpit like the F-16 CCV. I wish I could find video of it using it in flight though.

 

[F-2]

A model I bought that reflects the final design! It was from Mitsubishi I assume it was some kind of meeting room model. I included a picture of the box and an info sheet that came with it, all in Japanese.

 

[F-2]

1988 Japanese Defense Agency showing the Sx-3 based FS-X as of that date. Note the changed radome (The J/APG-1 precursor was test flow on a modified C-1 in 1986, MELCO APA) and extended fuselage plug were part of Japan’s requirements to general dynamics from the start, besides the Agile Falcon modifications. Note a three piece canopy was also present from the start, as Support Fighter is Japanese defense speak for attack. The LCD screens and other cockpit modifications were planned from the get go as were the four indigenous avionics systems (Radar, IRS, IEWS, Mission computer). The bigger wing would be developed in Japan as domestic composites were a big reason for the project to begin with. it was hoped to be used by the USAF and NATO partners to upgrade their F-16 to the Agile Falcon, this fell through do to requirements changing over time but I’ll do a write up in the Agile Falcon another time. The basis of the Plane was a Block 40/42 and you could argue till about 1990 when just about every part was redesigned it was a very modified F-16 Block 40. It was however always intended to us either a PW-229 or GE-129. I’ve heard that Japan learned a lot about PW engines with the F-15J and wanted to learn what GE had to offer, but personally I think the GE engines are just better for F-16s and better for low altitudes that the F-2 would be most of the time.

 

[F-2]

Wind tunnel paper of module model possibly related to the FI-X (I thought it might have been for the F-2 since some of the authors were aerodynamicst for the program)

 

[F-2]

AWST may 9th 1989

What an illustration of the SX-3 Upgrade!

I found out from Jwings military aircraft of the world F-2 this aircraft would have been called F-16 Kai by the JASDF. No word if it would have been F-16J but I think it’s likely based on the F-15J and F-4EJ.

 

[Cjc]

Lots of pictures for the f-18 and f-16 proposals, unfortunately it seems we have lost the pictures for the f-15 proposals, if anyone could re upload the that would be appreciated.

 

[F-2]

Lots of pictures for the f-18 and f-16 proposals, unfortunately it seems we have lost the pictures for the f-15 proposals, if anyone could re upload the that would be appreciated.

CjC I believe the F-15 proposals were proposed F-15J or F-15E with avionics modifications. I don’t think they should be noticeably different externally to a regular F-15 unless I’m mistaken. The same goes for the F-16XL.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Details about co-cured main wing used in the F-2 (exerpt from "XF-2 co-cured composite main-wing structure development"). The co-cured composite main-wing technology and the transfer thereof was a core point of discussion during the US-Japan negotiations. More details could be found in "Troubled Partnership", a great literature on the matter. According to the Code One Magazine article, composites account to 55% of F-2's main-wing weight. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any other sources that mentions the figure apart from said article. If it's true, I guess the titanium structures of the wing roots are just that heavier compared to composite structures.

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1989.

 

[F-2]

Domestic FS-X cockpit configuration. A physical mock up of this was built in the mid 80s but I’ve yet to come across a photo.

AWST allegedly SX-3 cockpit demonstrator was authorized. Again no picture or confirmation.

 

[Grey Havoc]

FS-X JOINT DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL

Tokyo AEROSPACE JAPAN-WEEKLY in English 20 Apr 87 p 1

[Text]

McDonnell Douglas (MD) started on April 6 briefing the Defense Agency (JDA) and the Air Self-Defense Force (ASDF) on details of its joint development proposal for the FS-X next support fighter.

The briefing was given by a 21-man team headed by James P Caldwell, Vice President-Marketing of McDonnell Aircraft Company. The team consisted of 12 executives from MD and three each from Northrop, General Electric and Hughes Aircraft.

MD has reportedly proposed four types of modifications of the F/A-18 fighter aircraft to satisfy ASDF's requirements for the FS-X. The briefing was held for two or three days, according to industry sources.

On the other hand, General Dynamics (GD) also briefed on its joint development proposal a week earlier than MD. GD proposed a twin-engine version of the F-16.

Following the two American aircraft manufacturers'briefing on their respective joint development proposals, JDA discussed the FS-X issue with an expert team of the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) which visited Japan on April 11 for about a week with a view to seeking appropriate data and information for the aircraft selection.

JDA will also be briefed late this month on a domestic FS-X development plan by a joint study group which was formed by five major Japanese military manufacturers, including Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd.

/8309

CSO: 4307/017

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA348896.pdf

 

[Grey Havoc]

Via the same source:

DOMESTIC FS-X MAY COST ¥6 BILLION

Tokyo AEROSPACE JAPAN-WEEKLY in English 13 Apr 87 pp 2-4

[Text]

A joint study group formed by five major Japanese military manufacturers, including Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. (MHI), has worked out a domestic development plan for the FS-X next support fighter of the Air Self-Defense Force (ASDF).

According to the plan, it is estimated to cost about ¥6 billion to manufacture a domestic FS-X fighter aircraft which completely satisfies ASDF's requirements. This includes the development cost too.

The domestic FS-X is expected to be cost-competitive enough against the aircraft proposed by two American aircraft manufacturers, according to the study group. With this plan, the Japanese aircraft manufacturers are expected to refute the U.S. claim that domestic FS-X development would cost higher.

For the FS-X selection, ASDF was briefed by General Dynamics (GD) and McDonnell Douglas (MD) on their respective FS-X joint development proposals from late March through early April. This will be followed by briefing by Japanese manufacturers on the domestic development plan.

Although neither of the companies concerned are required to show cost estimates, the Japanese manufacturers worked out the cost estimate to prove that the domestic FS-X is cost-competitive against the aircraft proposed by GD and MD.

Among the member companies of the joint study group, MHI, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Ltd. (KHI) and Fuji Heavy Industries, Ltd. (FHI) are in charge of the airframe of the FS-X, while Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries Co., Ltd. (IHI) and Mitsubishi Electric Corp. (MELCO) are responsible for the engine and the avionics respectively, according to the plan.

In terms of cost, the airframe accounts for 50%, the avionics for 30% and the engine for 20%. The avionics seem to have relatively a large share in developing the domestic FS-X.

The FS-X procurement will start around 1995. ASDF is expected to procure a total of 100 aircraft or more. The joint study group believes that the domestic FS-X plan will not suffer negative influence of temporary appreciation of yen against dollar.

The study group also pointed out that the proposed American aircraft are anticipated to cost higher in a long run because of inflation in the U.S. Even if the value of yen continues to stand at a 1 $ = ¥150 level, the domestic FS-X will remain cost competitive enough, according to the study group.

As for the powerplant of the domestic FS-X, the study group will propose one of the following three candidate engines: General Electric's F404, Pratt & Whitney's PW1127 and Turbo Union's RB199.

No matter what engines should be selected, Japan will produce the engine under license. But domestic technology may be applied partly to the engine such as a two dimensional nozzle.

/8309
CSO: 4307/018

 

[Cliwn]

Guys do you have characteristics of this plane?

 

[F-2]

Guys do you have characteristics of this plane?

Hopefully in a few months when I get these