Japanese 'dream project' battleships and never built battleships

[Tzoli]

There were 3 shipyards which was used to construct the Yamato class: Kure, Mitsubishi Nagasaki and Yokosuka and if I remember a 4th was to be introduced for later ships but I'm not sure which, maybe Maizuru or Sasebo

 

[blackkite]

Yamato : Kure
Musashi : Mitsubishi Nagasaki
Shinano :　Yokosuka
No.111 battle ship named Kii(紀伊): Kure, terminated

Attached pictures shows carrier Shokaku in Yokosuka, Mitsubishi Nagasaki shioyard and Kure naval arsenal shipyard at the day.

Please try auto translator.

111号艦 - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

 

[Tzoli]

Not the 4th ship (Some sources states Kii) to be built in a new yard but the future ships most likely the 5th Yamato and the A-150

 

[ceccherini]

I've read from both Bagnasco's "le navi da battaglia giapponesi 1909-1945" and Japanese Wikipedia that in 1944 it was considered to revome all the 155 mm guns to make room for additional 127 mm AA gun gun from both Yamato and Musashi. The total number of latter would be a staggering 80 in 40 twin enclosed mount, something hard to belive but apparently seriously considered. Has anyone any idea of the intended disposition of such a massive AA armament and possibly some drawings?

 

[Tzoli]

That is not true. The author mixed up the numbers. Yamato did receive it's AA refit resulting in 3x3 46cm 2x3 15,5cm and 12x2 12,7cm Guns. Musashi did not receive it's extra 12,7cm guns prior to her loss due to large number of requirements from the weapon plants, but surely she would receive them after the Battle of Leye Gulf action if she would survive. 40 twin mounts would be not impossible but highly impractical to mount on the Yamatos.
There were not enough mounts and guns at that time.
Even if you remove the two triple centreline 15,5cm turrets, and replace them with 12,7cm twins as well as 2-2 twins at their bases that is only 6 more totalling 18 twins.
Removing the 2nd 46cm turret could free up 3-4 on the barbette and another 4-6 around the barbette for a total of 7-10 more for 28. If you remove all main armament and transforming it into an AA battleship then you can have 40 twin mounts on the hull. And I did not even count the space required for the director and range finder equipment for the extra guns.

So no that is not correct information.

 

[ceccherini]

That is not true. The author mixed up the numbers. Yamato did receive it's AA refit resulting in 3x3 46cm 2x3 15,5cm and 12x2 12,7cm Guns. Musashi did not receive it's extra 12,7cm guns prior to her loss due to large number of requirements from the weapon plants, but surely she would receive them after the Battle of Leye Gulf action if she would survive. 40 twin mounts would be not impossible but highly impractical to mount on the Yamatos.
There were not enough mounts and guns at that time.
Even if you remove the two triple centreline 15,5cm turrets, and replace them with 12,7cm twins as well as 2-2 twins at their bases that is only 6 more totalling 18 twins.
Removing the 2nd 46cm turret could free up 3-4 on the barbette and another 4-6 around the barbette for a total of 7-10 more for 28. If you remove all main armament and transforming it into an AA battleship then you can have 40 twin mounts on the hull. And I did not even count the space required for the director and range finder equipment for the extra guns.

So no that is not correct information.

Surely there wasn't such a large number of guns (in fact it remained a paper plan) but in terms of weights it's not impossible. Each triple 155 mm turrets weights 180 tons for a total of 720 tons. The 127 mm shielded mount weights 28 tons and the unshielded variant 20 tons. That's enough for 25 shielded mounts or 36 unshielded mounts plus the 6 original mounts. That means 62 to 84 127 mm guns without touching the main armament. It's still far from a solid base for a realistic or viable plan but one solid enough to imagine at least some considerations in a time of panic because of the enemy's air superiority.

 

[Tzoli]

I've never said that is a weight issue. It's about space! A Twin 127mm is not that smaller then a triple 155mm so replacement is 1-1. Also you need directors and if you put a few gun mounts around the main guns you need fully shielded ones for the blast effects. And again directors. Yamato had one director for each 3 such mounts.
Not to mention the ammo handling required for the mountings!

Hell even the USN did not wanted to put that many turrets on the Kentucky: (And they knew the horrors of kamikazes! )

Anti-Aircraft Cruiser-Battleship USS Kentucky G by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

So still not this is not realistic at all. Does the book state any sources?

Maybe you need a visual aid of how large were these mountings?

Yamato class Battleship Final Form 1945 by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

 

[miker]

Love your work!

 

[able]

Fujimoto's Dream Battleship

 

[Tzoli]

I know that photo about those models, while excellent in detail the modeller made a serious error as the 3rd Turret of Fujimoto's Battleship could not rotate because it was put too close to the bridge superstructure.

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

I get this image in https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10212850/60/2# Is the Super [Yamato] Type Battle Ship

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

"BEYOND THE YAMATO CLASS" I get and print this text from a japanese page in 1997, when I believe that internet pages would be eternal. Maybe this is the reason that I dont save the other links in "Planned But Not Built".

 

[Tzoli]

Yes this describes the Shinano and modified Shinano subclass as well as the A-150 Super Yamato class. As noted info on the A-150 design is very scarce hence myself too made a number of variants based on artists impressions emerged in the recent decades. Though I left out the 3x2 variant as in my opinion that was to be the upgunned Yamato.

My variants:
Variant A:

A-150 Super Yamato class possible variant A by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

Variant B:

A-150 Super Yamato class possible variant B by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

Variant C:

A-150 Super Yamato class possible variant C by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

Variant D:

A-150 Super Yamato class possible variant D by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

Variant E:

A-150 Super Yamato class possible variant E by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

Variant F:

A-150 Super Yamato class possible variant F by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

 

[able]

That is true. So the main gun should always toword left

I know that photo about those models, while excellent in detail the modeller made a serious error as the 3rd Turret of Fujimoto's Battleship could not rotate because it was put too close to the bridge superstructure.

Because of that reason, the ship must be a left battleship. And with 406mm left Belt, 203mm right Belt.

 

[Tzoli]

That is true. So the main gun should always toword left

I know that photo about those models, while excellent in detail the modeller made a serious error as the 3rd Turret of Fujimoto's Battleship could not rotate because it was put too close to the bridge superstructure.

Because of that reason, the ship must be a left battleship. And with 406mm left Belt, 203mm right Belt.

No, the modeller used this drawing:

Instead of the sketch drawing:

 

[able]

That is true. So the main gun should always toword left

I know that photo about those models, while excellent in detail the modeller made a serious error as the 3rd Turret of Fujimoto's Battleship could not rotate because it was put too close to the bridge superstructure.

Because of that reason, the ship must be a left battleship. And with 406mm left Belt, 203mm right Belt.

No, the modeller used this drawing:

Instead of the sketch drawing:

Will you draw this ship? I am making Kongo Replacement Design 25K Variant B and Yamato A-140k, your draw help me a lot.

 

[Tzoli]

one day I will
But it will be two drawings because according to two japanese sources there were two versions, a 3x4 (Myoko) and a 4x3 (Tone arrangement) variant

From a Japanese friend of mine:

2012 August number of the "Rekishi-Gunzo" and 2013 February number of the "Maru".
>
>
>
> According to "Rekishi-Gunzo"
>
> Displacement:50000t
> Armour:Belt 406mm , Decks 280mm
> Speed:30knots
> Armament:
> 12(3x4) 510mm gun
> 16 155mm gun
> 8 or 10 127mm AAA
> Aircraft:12 floatplanes
>
> Three turrets arranged like Myoko class.
>
>
>
> According to "Maru"
>
> Displacement:50000t
> Length:290m
> Beam:38m
> Draft:9.8m
> Armour:Belt 16in , Decks 11in
> Speed:30knots(Diesel 140000hp)
> Range:12000nmile at 16knots
> Armament:
> 12(4x3) 510mm gun
> 16 155mm gun
> 8 or 10 127mm AAA
> Aircraft:12 floatplanes
>
> Four turrets arranged like Tone class.

 

[able]

First class battleship and cruiser

 

[Tzoli]

Why??? Why the camofaluge scheme???
These were 1900 era designs the IJN was not applying any camouflage patterns until mid WW2!!!

https://books.google.hu/books?id=7L...oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=IJN paint scheme&f=false

 

[able]

Suppose they all bought from the UK. It's confusing how many turrets there are

 

[Tzoli]

Not bought, built by England.
And the last ship built in England was IJN Kongo from 1911.
And the last battleship was IJN Katori from 1904.
All subsequent capital ships were built in Japan.
These two 1st class ships, the armoured cruiser and battleship design were from 1904.

And the images you posted about Essex was from WW1

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/2zuuax

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

All my fleet 01

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

All my fleet 02

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

As usual, I will say that I do not remember where to get this images. Maybe I got some in 1998 or earlier on some missing internet pages ...

 

[Tzoli]

Mostly Shipbucket drawings the BBCV "Houshou" is a fantasy design, the black and white oens are from Siegfried and Beyers Axis Battleship book, the coloured A-140 prelimianires are from a Japanese book.
But I suspect you got those from Stefano's old site:

Battleships & Knights

A website devoted to scale warship modeling, museum ship models, pictures of warship kits,informations of interest to the ship modeler.

xoomer.virgilio.it

and his gallery:

The Never Were Catalog

Since then Siegfried and Beyers drawings are outdated and not accurate anymore.
For the Tosa preliminaries I've already drawn the A-124-127 preliminaries and Tosa/Kaga class.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Those are considered scam sites for some reason, another weird result.

 

[Tzoli]

Not scam (maybe the base provider site) if you go through the warning messages you will find many drawings

 

[Flying Sorcerer]

Fujimoto's Dream Battleship
View attachment 634881
View attachment 634882

Magnificent models. What are the 2nd and 3rd ones from the bottom?

 

[Tzoli]

Fujimoto's Dream Battleship
View attachment 634881
View attachment 634882

Magnificent models. What are the 2nd and 3rd ones from the bottom?

From Top:
Fujimoto Dream Battleship
Mogami after rebuild to CAV
Tone heavy cruiser
Oyodo light Cruiser
Chitose in her original Seaplane Tender configuration
Mizuho seaplane tender
Looks like Kamikawa Maru seaplane tender-cargo ship hybrid

 

[Flying Sorcerer]

Fujimoto's Dream Battleship
View attachment 634881
View attachment 634882

Magnificent models. What are the 2nd and 3rd ones from the bottom?

From Top:
Fujimoto Dream Battleship
Mogami after rebuild to CAV
Tone heavy cruiser
Oyodo light Cruiser
Chitose in her original Seaplane Tender configuration
Mizuho seaplane tender
Looks like Kamikawa Maru seaplane tender-cargo ship hybrid

Thank you.

 

[able]

more IJN battleship project
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/some-ijn-battleship-projects.34865/

 

[Tzoli]

Two Hiraga Kongo replacement designs a Yamato preliminary and a hypothetical design

 

[Flying Sorcerer]

Fujimoto's Dream Battleship
View attachment 634881
View attachment 634882

Magnificent models. What are the 2nd and 3rd ones from the bottom?

From Top:
Fujimoto Dream Battleship
Mogami after rebuild to CAV
Tone heavy cruiser
Oyodo light Cruiser
Chitose in her original Seaplane Tender configuration
Mizuho seaplane tender
Looks like Kamikawa Maru seaplane tender-cargo ship hybrid

Thank you.

What's the flat upper deck on Chitose for? Seems it would make the ship top heavy.

 

[Tzoli]

Not everything above deck on a Japanese ship makes it top heavy. The Chitose class were very fine seaplane tenders and very not bad light carriers after conversion.
That platform on Chitose was for protection and shelter for the crew to make maintenance and repairs in better conditions. The next class Mizuho and Nisshin abandoned this idea while Agano retained though for a different purpose as seaplane storing platforms above the torpedo launcher.
You could guess how hot it could be on the pacific near the equator, so any space with shades is a good morale booster for the crew.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Those are considered scam sites for some reason, another weird result.

Weird as todau the same site, fine. Who nose what interent security software is up to lately.......?

 

[donnyjie]

RAdm. Kaneda's Private Proposal for 8-8 Fleet's New Capital Ships:
https://da.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/portal/assets/39e2a033-808b-4a4b-b5e1-cf7495c03818#?pos=5
This design had quad 48cm gun mounts, mentioned in a letter of his opinion on Hiraga's A-M designs in 1919, but it had never got into further discussions.

Displacement: 57000 t
Armament: 3xIV 48 cm/45, 20xI 14 cm/50, ?x(12cm/45?) HA, 12x 61 cm TT
Armor: Belt - 305 mm(/15°?), Deck - 127 mm, Underwater - 102 mm, Barbette - 305 mm
Speed: 30kt

 

[Tzoli]

I don't see any numbers in that two pages and Hiraga was well known of using Latin numbers and letters in his designs. Even full data pages in English language!
The title text

平賀造船大佐ノ四連装砲塔艦ノ提案ニ就テ 八年十二月 金田少将​

translates to via google translate:
Colonel Hiraga Shipbuilding's proposal for a quadruple turret ship December 1988 Rear Admiral Kaneda

 

[donnyjie]

I don't see any numbers in that two pages and Hiraga was well known of using Latin numbers and letters in his designs. Even full data pages in English language!
The title text

平賀造船大佐ノ四連装砲塔艦ノ提案ニ就テ 八年十二月 金田少将​

translates to via google translate:
Colonel Hiraga Shipbuilding's proposal for a quadruple turret ship December 1988 Rear Admiral Kaneda

Translation: About the Proposal of Quadruple-Turret Warship by Ship-Building Captain Hiraga, Dec. 1919, RAdm. Kaneda
Here's a replica in printing font. This article was written by Kaneda, so that's not surprising he didn't use Latin numbers like Hiraga XD.
https://iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/repo/s/hiraga/document/7f99c6c1-e381-4fc6-9e18-ed043204f4d0

 

[donnyjie]

Hiraga's Fast BB/BC Experimental Proposals Aug. 1917:

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · 〔牧野茂氏による資料解題メモ/八八艦隊主力艦要目一覧〕 · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

	①	②	②'	②''	③	④	⑤
Displacement (t)	38800	37500	37700	36500	38800	44000	47500
Length wl. (m)		248.4	240.8	240.8			298.7
Speed (kt)	30	30	29.5	29.75	32	35	36
Propulsion (shp)	90000	120000	112000		160000	210000	250000
Main Armament	5xII 41cm	5xII 41cm	5xII 41cm	5xII 41cm	5xII 41cm	5xII 41cm	5xII 41cm
Belt Armor (mm)		229	305	229

The time was after the Navy had rejected Hiraga's A125 Design. Maybe he was in a very bad mood then and created these crazy proposals, especially the Design ⑤.