Japanese cruise missiles

DWG said:
sferrin said:
Hmmm. One would think Japan would already have suitable small turbofan technology. (The engine used in the UK's Storm Shadow is French.) ???
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I read that comment as referring to Meteor's ramjet technology, no need to bring Storm Shadow into a Meteor-related project.
Click to expand...

They've already got ramjet technology in hand though in the form of ASM-3.
 
sferrin said:
DWG said:
sferrin said:
Hmmm. One would think Japan would already have suitable small turbofan technology. (The engine used in the UK's Storm Shadow is French.) ???
Click to expand...

I read that comment as referring to Meteor's ramjet technology, no need to bring Storm Shadow into a Meteor-related project.
Click to expand...

They've already got ramjet technology in hand though in the form of ASM-3.
Click to expand...

What type of ramjet is used in the ASM-3?
A VFDR would offer better high-altitude ("high-diver") performance than an L/SFRJ.

Curious what the Japanese took away from their experiences with GQM-163.
 
I'm not sure we should be reading too much into these newspaper reports.
Meteor is a mix of European companies work, the propulsion system is designed and manufactured by the Germany company Bayern-Chemie.

Anyhow its not a new development, it was announced as far back as 14 January 2016, the whole purpose seems to be to marry the AESA seeker of the AAM-4B with Meteor. I've read the AAM-4B seeker is superior to the current Meteor MBDA/Thales set. So its possible to read "...fiscal 2023, at which point Japan and the U.K. will decide whether to put the weapon into mass production" as meaning the UK would consider buying the Japanese version of Meteor, probably for its own F-35 fleet.

Anyhow, I don't think a retired general's musings offer anything concrete, he's just speculating that if the engine technology was made available that it might be possible to adapt it.
 
marauder2048 said:
sferrin said:
DWG said:
sferrin said:
Hmmm. One would think Japan would already have suitable small turbofan technology. (The engine used in the UK's Storm Shadow is French.) ???
Click to expand...

I read that comment as referring to Meteor's ramjet technology, no need to bring Storm Shadow into a Meteor-related project.
Click to expand...

They've already got ramjet technology in hand though in the form of ASM-3.
Click to expand...

What type of ramjet is used in the ASM-3?
A VFDR would offer better high-altitude ("high-diver") performance than an L/SFRJ.

Curious what the Japanese took away from their experiences with GQM-163.
Click to expand...

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/july-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5405-japan-to-produce-and-procure-xasm-3-supersonic-anti-ship-missile-in-2018.html
 
Called it:

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/international/japan-to-buy-longrange-missiles-for-first-time

"TOKYO (CNN) - Japan will for the first time buy long-range missiles to counter the country's "increasingly severe" national security situation, Defense Minister Itsunori Onodera said.

"We will implement stand-off missiles capable of defending ourselves adequately, when we are outside the range of the opponent, in order to ensure the safety of the Self Defense Force and to defend our nation effectively," Onodera told reporters.

A spokesman from Onodera's office told CNN Japan will be purchasing two types of missiles -- Long Range Anti-Ship Missiles and Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (LRASM & JASSM) -- from Lockheed Martin to put on its F-15 fighter jets. "
 
Deino said:
Kota said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1454240223622152196
View: https://twitter.com/koji_tkrdkr/status/1454240223622152196


P-1 with new ASM. Its definitely a new silhouette, but it's likely based off of the Type 17 SSM.
Click to expand...


Just found the same?!!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1454511848183709698
View: https://twitter.com/jesusfroman/status/1454511848183709698
Click to expand...

Interesting that Japan have gone down the tomahawk route for the Anti-Ship cruise missile instead of a stealthy missile like the LRASM?
 
FighterJock said:
Deino said:
Kota said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1454240223622152196
View: https://twitter.com/koji_tkrdkr/status/1454240223622152196


P-1 with new ASM. Its definitely a new silhouette, but it's likely based off of the Type 17 SSM.
Click to expand...


Just found the same?!!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1454511848183709698
View: https://twitter.com/jesusfroman/status/1454511848183709698
Click to expand...

Interesting that Japan have gone down the tomahawk route for the Anti-Ship cruise missile instead of a stealthy missile like the LRASM?
Click to expand...
I'd say that's a bit too far down the tomahawk route to really be called an anti-ship missile.
May as well have called it air-to-air missile for left-of-the-launch intercepts.
p.s. bluntly speaking - while everyone noticed first f-35 landing - this can be considered to be yet another milestone. Japan had not have a long-range bomber force since 1945.
 
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FighterJock said:
Interesting that Japan have gone down the tomahawk route for the Anti-Ship cruise missile instead of a stealthy missile like the LRASM?
Click to expand...

It's actually a fine route. as Lifting body like JASSM/LRASM may need additional development and testing.

By going conventional.. it's easier to produce and field.

Stealth wise however I remember making comparison between conventional vs Lifting body. The frequency is X-band for the image. but i do up to VHF (150 MHz). Both missiles are my own concept but i think they're representative.


ConventionalLifting body
Missile.jpg Missile-2.jpg
Behavior-conventional.jpg stealthmissile.jpg


As you see the conventional one have unique "doughnut" lobe but observed from nose on front, which might be the case for shipboard radar, it's pretty small. Especially if the seeker have FSS (Frequency Selective Surface) layer on it or simply tilted to reduce RCS.

The Stealth one have clear advantage here those beautiful stealthty blue area.. It is very hard to detect, but well the Japanese might think they wont need that.


The numerical value is :
Conventional vs stealth.jpg

You can see the conventional one have pretty low RCS and exhibit relatively "constant value" in Median. The stealth one just looks so much better but curiously in VHF. Conventional Cruise missile actually exhibit lower median RCS. Maybe Japan also consider the Chinese Type 052D which have VHF acquisition Radar.

In terms of detection range. assuming Nebo SVU Radar. The Stealthy missile will be detected at 191 Km while conventional design is 141 km. This however assumes no horizon. In reality with sea-skimming trajectory, both missiles might be detected at same range.
 
Deino said:
Just found the same?!!
Click to expand...

This missile is nothing new. It's a Type 12(or 17) variant that was shown last year. It's not a long-range missile like the Tomahawk. The estimated operational range is a maximum of 400km.

defence-blog.com

Japan begins testing air-launched variant of new anti-ship missile

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) has begun testing the improved version of the Type-12 surface-to-ship missile in an air-launched configuration designed for the P-1 maritime patrol aircraft. According to several media reports, a P-1 patrol aircraft equipped with four modernized...
defence-blog.com defence-blog.com

FighterJock said:
Interesting that Japan have gone down the tomahawk route for the Anti-Ship cruise missile instead of a stealthy missile like the LRASM?
Click to expand...

The Type 17 variant is just an interim ASM for P-1 MPA and some ships.

Japan MoD already began the development of the JASSM-ER/LRASM-like turbofan-powered stealth missile last year and is expected to be deployed between 2025 - 2027. It was originally undertaken only on the development of land and ship versions, but the air-launched version was also accelerated after the plan to purchase LRASM was canceled and will operate on the F-2 fighter.

The range has been set to 900-1500km, according to multiple newspapers.

 

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Update on the new ASM. These are the preliminary specs
1639274006308.png
Compare that to the Type 17 SSM
1639274629310.png
1639274017468.png

Just under double the size of a JASSM-ER in all dimensions, 4m wingspan, and a 2000km range. No guarantees these specs are final as this thing is bigger than a Kinzhal pictured here on a MiG 31 and they potentially want to fit 2 of these on both the P-1 and the F-2.
1639274282985.png
 
It's been a while since anything was added here, but some small updates. The Kawasaki SSM is seemingly cancelled to focus on the stealth Type 12. It's also begun wind tunnel testing as well and we have a model of what it will look like.
1659579563723.png
 
Kota said:
It's been a while since anything was added here, but some small updates. The Kawasaki SSM is seemingly cancelled to focus on the stealth Type 12. It's also begun wind tunnel testing as well and we have a model of what it will look like.
View attachment 682076
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By Kawasaki SSM you mean the 島嶼防衛用対艦誘導弾 right? I've also read the Nikkei article about the alleged cancellation by the end of 2020, but has there been any other sources regarding the cancellation? To me it seems a bit premature to consider this thing dead since we don't have concrete sources confirming the cancellation.

Though on the other hand, I'd say it makes some sense considering the stealth Type 12(Type 23？) has a range of 1,500 km. If the rumors about cancellation are true, maybe the MoD prefers to concentrate on Mitsubishi projects, maybe its politics. Who knows.

stealthflanker said:
and if anyone interested. Some RCS modeling on the Type-12 based on available imagery

https://twitter.com/x/status/1552732326886461440
View: https://twitter.com/Flankerchan/status/1552732326886461440
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That model, if true, really does look like Kawasaki SSM(IDASM)(once more, if the known shape of IDASM is true). No wonder they might consider cancelling one of them.
 
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Maro.Kyo said:
To me it seems a bit premature to consider this thing dead since we don't have concrete sources confirming the cancellation.
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It may still be up in the air, but I haven't seen any recent activities for it in the budgets. There was also talks about putting VLS cells on the SSKs and that came after the supposed canceling which would contradict with them cancelling the "cruise missile". I would say it's hard to say for sure and we will see with time. At the very least the new Type 12 is happening for sure.
 
1661993030163.png
So it looks like the improved Type 12 Kai will enter production earlier for the ground based launcher then ship and air launched systems will come at a later date. It also looks like the Kawasaki missile is still kicking as it's the 4th one down in blue.
 
I thought that the Japanese would be looking at developing their own cruise missile, given that the South Korean has also done so.

Buying Tomahawks from US means restrictions on their use and deployment.
 
zjz said:
I thought that the Japanese would be looking at developing their own cruise missile, given that the South Korean has also done so.

Buying Tomahawks from US means restrictions on their use and deployment.
Click to expand...

Those restrictions might be useful in selling the capability to the less hawkish Japanese political factions.
 
zjz said:
I thought that the Japanese would be looking at developing their own cruise missile, given that the South Korean has also done so.

Buying Tomahawks from US means restrictions on their use and deployment.
Click to expand...
This Tomahawk purchase would simply be a stopgap to provide the capabilities until Japan deploys their own missiles. This isn't replacing any Japanese project, they just realized they needed this capability immediately with domestic projects not delivering into the mid-late 2020's.
 
finance.yahoo.com

Japan considering buying up to 500 Tomahawk missiles by FY2027 -Yomiuri

Japan may buy up to 500 U.S-made Tomahawk cruise missiles by the fiscal year ending in March 2028 as it speeds up preparations to improve counterattack capabilities, the Yomiuri newspaper reported on Wednesday. Tokyo is pursuing its biggest arms buildup since World War Two in the face of...
finance.yahoo.com finance.yahoo.com
 
www.sankei.com

＜独自＞反撃能力で「極超音速弾部隊」新設へ　安保３文書

政府が月内に閣議決定する「安保３文書」で掲げる反撃能力（敵基地攻撃能力）の保有に向け、変則軌道で迎撃が難しい極超音速誘導弾や能力向上型の高速滑空弾を運用する部…
www.sankei.com www.sankei.com

The development and procurement of improved Type 12 (often called Type 23) will cost ¥990 billion ($7.2 billion) in total, of which ¥700 billion will be used for the ground launched variant, ¥200 billion for ship-launched and ¥90 billion for air-launched variant. Procurement of the improved Type 12 variant will be fast tracked, starting with the acquisition of the GL variant in mid 2020s. The interim Tomahawk procurement will be funded separately. Details of the budget regarding the New ASM for Island Defense was not disclosed in the article.

More on https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ore-unmanned-and-stand-off.40660/#post-569477
 
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The two fatties will love reading this. I certainly do. Go Japan Go!
 
New Japanese long-range loitering surveillance vehicle for target acquisition and a submarine launched version of the type-12-based stand-off missile.

The former is quite an interesting one which seems to be either based on the type-12-based stand-off or the Kawasaki New Long-Range Island Defence ASM. It has a much wider wing for loitering performances compared to either one of them. It was mentioned that it will be used as one of the primary target acquisition sources for the new long range missiles and will be able to acquire targets at least at the maximum range of improved type-12 on maritime environment and over land.

As for the submarine launched ASM, previously the Japanese have been using the UGM-84L Sub-Harpoon. It seems to be that this missile will be launched from the torpedo tubes and is not meant for the VLS of the new VLS-equipped submarine, which currently only exists as a plan.
 

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https://twitter.com/x/status/1615519243264745474
View: https://twitter.com/alert5/status/1615519243264745474

www.yomiuri.co.jp

弾頭交換型の新ミサイル開発へ、偵察・レーダー妨害・攻撃…世界的にも珍しく

【読売新聞】　政府は、通常の攻撃用に加え、敵の偵察、防空妨害用の計３種の弾頭を交換可能な新型巡航ミサイルを開発する方針を固めた。それぞれを時間差で発射することで敵艦船などへの攻撃精度を高め、抑止力を向上させる狙いがある。新年度から試
www.yomiuri.co.jp www.yomiuri.co.jp
 
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