Japanese 2050 Space Elevator project (Obayashi Corporation)

I will stop this conversation right here before being rude... :rolleyes:
Please, feel free to vent - as a blunt German, I have no problems whatsoever with anyone being rude to me, as long as that someone doesn't have any problems with me retaliating with some German industrial strength rudeness in return :D .
 
Last edited:
Please, feel free to vent - as a blunt German, I have no problems whatsoever with anyone being rude to me, as long as that someone doesn't have any problems with me retaliating with some German industrial strength rudeness in return
in the Space projects section? Really ?

OK. mods will surely end up cleaning up the OT content, but surely we can behave ourselves better than giving them this type of extra work.
 
Today, phys.org has a story

"New Strategy To Obtain Carbon Nanotube Fibers With Higher Dynamics Strength."

The claim is 14 GPa

That good enough?
 
Today, phys.org has a story

"New Strategy To Obtain Carbon Nanotube Fibers With Higher Dynamics Strength."

The claim is 14 GPa

That good enough?
Maybe? IIRC 10GPa was the minimum yield strength to run a tether to orbit at all. 14GPa would give a low-but-reasonable safety margin.
 
Maybe? IIRC 10GPa was the minimum yield strength to run a tether to orbit at all. 14GPa would give a low-but-reasonable safety margin.
Hi,
I had thought that I had seen values of 40 to 50 GPa being required, but I don't know what that fully represents.

Unfortunately, in looking through alot of readily available information on space elevators a lot of discussion appears to be centered around the tensile stress requirements imposed on the cable as it extends from the ground to orbit. However, that is only one partof the loads that the cable will experience, especially when you consider things like wind forces and wind shear over the enter length of the cable that exists within the atmosphere. In addition to that the cable would also have to withing lightning strikes, impact loads (rain, sleet, birds, debris, etc), contact wear and tear from the "elevator car" moving up and down the cable, thermal stresses and olther such things.

And finally, any "thickening/reinforcing" of a cable to account for things like this and/or the need to provide a relatively constant cross section of the cable to ensure that the "car" will maintain a suitable amount of connection to the cable as it moves up and down the tether (as oposed to allowing for an extreme tapering of the cable over its length) then the total weight of the cable will need to increase further driving up the required design tensile strength of the cable.

Also, just for comparison when discussing factors of safety, according to this article a typical elevator operating in a building on Earth would potentially have a factor of safety of "12" in comparison to the fully loaded weight of the elevator car (ie its mass times 1 G), which helps account for the fact that the elevator cable in this situation will see more than 1 G as the elevator car accelerates and decelerates in use, plus wear and tear, margins and other such stuff.

Similarly, according to this document for launching appliances and embarkation ladders on modern ocean going ships will have a factor of safety of 4.5 on davits and winch structural members, and 6 on "falls, suspension chains, links and blocks". As such, a facrtor of safety of 1.4 would potentially be very low for something like a space elevator tether which could potentially cause a large amount of dmae if it were to break somewehere along its length aloowing its lower part to fall to the ground.
 
Similarly, according to this document for launching appliances and embarkation ladders on modern ocean going ships will have a factor of safety of 4.5 on davits and winch structural members, and 6 on "falls, suspension chains, links and blocks". As such, a facrtor of safety of 1.4 would potentially be very low for something like a space elevator tether which could potentially cause a large amount of dmae if it were to break somewehere along its length aloowing its lower part to fall to the ground.
Yes, the failure mode of an elevator is ugly. It's probably going to need shearing charges built in at 100km and in a lot of places between there and the surface as well.

Thing to remember about safety factors is the relative masses involved. On the davits etc, the mass of the cables is a small fraction of the mass the cables are supporting, so you need a pretty huge safety factor to account for the large mass getting accelerated.

On an orbital elevator, however, that's inverted. How much does 36,000km of tether mass? What % of the tether mass is one of those trains? I'd be surprised if the trains and cargo exceed 1% of the tether mass. Crud, I'd be surprised if the trains exceeded 0.01% of tether mass!

As a side note, I've read a long time ago that the max speed of a train going up the beanstalk is only 200-300kph even in vacuum due to vibrational limits, so there's not much additional load inflicted by the trains accelerating and decelerating. Remember, we're talking probably 2000 tons of train going up and coming down, times 5 trains on the beanstalk each direction, and having at least 4 tracks going all the way up. Why 5 trains each direction? So that one train leaves each day. What's in the train going up? People, food, water, parts for whatever spacecraft are getting assembled up top, probably some air. What's in the train going down? People, refined metals from asteroids, trash, and possibly organic waste (sewage) to use for fertilizer. You'd generally try to keep the upload and download roughly equal in mass, but it's not absolutely necessary. Makes powering the trains easier, though.

So despite having 10,000 tons of trains going up the beanstalk and another 10,000 tons going down, the 4 sets of tracks alone are going to weigh in the neighborhood of 20 million tons (70kg/m). Not the tethers. The tracks the trains use. The tethers will need to support that much weight.
 
I'd love to see that turned into a vertical version of Bullet Train!
That speed basically is already. Yes, I know the Shinkansen is a bit faster.

The catch is that the Shinkansen is pretty lightly loaded as trains go, passengers are not a very dense cargo compared to water, let alone metal.

Means that the bottom of the Elevator is basically a mid-sized train station. 4 tracks, plus a yard that's probably 4 more tracks on each side.

Guess I should say why 4 tracks, 2 each direction: so that if/when one gets damaged you can reroute traffic around the damaged section and run a repair train up to fix it. There's even rail switches between the up and down tracks, since there's only one train per day you can adjust up and down speeds to let the two trains cross to tracks out of the way without having to stop unless something is VERY wrong.
 
That speed basically is already. Yes, I know the Shinkansen is a bit faster.

The catch is that the Shinkansen is pretty lightly loaded as trains go, passengers are not a very dense cargo compared to water, let alone metal.

Means that the bottom of the Elevator is basically a mid-sized train station. 4 tracks, plus a yard that's probably 4 more tracks on each side.

Guess I should say why 4 tracks, 2 each direction: so that if/when one gets damaged you can reroute traffic around the damaged section and run a repair train up to fix it. There's even rail switches between the up and down tracks, since there's only one train per day you can adjust up and down speeds to let the two trains cross to tracks out of the way without having to stop unless something is VERY wrong.
Never mind - I watched Bullet Train on a recent travel leg and found it to be a delightful blood soaked contemporary fun diversion - no more, no less :)...
 
Uniting heaven and earth is a terrible idea... Can you imagine the bullwhip effect caused by an earthquake on such a long cable?

Can you imagine the impact on terrestrial facilities when the cable came loose and fell?

A cake for terrorists... Imagine the publicity: kidnappings, bomb threats, nerve gas attacks... All the bad stuff of commercial aviation in space at popular prices.
 
Uniting heaven and earth is a terrible idea... Can you imagine the bullwhip effect caused by an earthquake on such a long cable?
Most earthquake displacements are measured in inches.

Can you imagine the impact on terrestrial facilities when the cable came loose and fell?
That's why there are multiple shearing charges inside the beanstalk, along with a nice clear spot for the cable to land to the east of the installation.


A cake for terrorists... Imagine the publicity: kidnappings, bomb threats, nerve gas attacks... All the bad stuff of commercial aviation in space at popular prices.
Maybe we should start actively hunting the bastards then...
 
Kim Stanley Robinson did it, at least for Mars... in his trilogy.
That's exactly why there's a shearing charge in my plans. A lot of them, actually, one to limit the amount of falling tether and the rest to chop the falling stuff into pieces small enough to burn up.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom