Izumo Class 22DDH Helicopter Destroyer

[Arjen]

'Tradition', in my opinion, is not the best of reasons to justify decisions. The tradition of naming major warships after defunct Japanese provinces is a little over a century old. There was another tradition to name carriers after mythical animals, slightly younger. The Japanese government's decision to name its first 'DDH' that really looks like a carrier is an interesting one, whether you assume it as the product of a lack of historical awareness, or, in contrast, as the product of acute historical awareness. I do not like either possibility.

 

[TomS]

There's no doubt the current Japanese government is taking a more aggressive stance and the ship names aren't entirely coincidental to that. I'm not sure when they started reusing IJN ship names -- I recall that there was a small flap over the Kongo class, which have WW2 battleship or cruiser names.

 

[sferrin]

There's no doubt the current Japanese government is taking a more aggressive stance and the ship names aren't entirely coincidental to that. I'm not sure when they started reusing IJN ship names -- I recall that there was a small flap over the Kongo class, which have WW2 battleship or cruiser names.

I agree they're taking a more aggressive stance (as they should) but I don't get the impression Japan harbors any ill will towards the US in the least.

 

[Triton]

'Tradition', in my opinion, is not the best of reasons to justify decisions. The tradition of naming major warships after defunct Japanese provinces is a little over a century old. There was another tradition to name carriers after mythical animals, slightly younger. The Japanese government's decision to name its first 'DDH' that really looks like a carrier is an interesting one, whether you assume it as the product of a lack of historical awareness, or, in contrast, as the product of acute historical awareness. I do not like either possibility.

Indeed, why continue the tradition of naming warships for provinces abolished during the Meiji Restoration and not name them for present-day prefectures? Why name DDH-184 for the defunct Kaga Province (abolished in 1871) and not name it for the present-day Ishikawa Prefecture (established 1872)? DDH-183 is named for the defunct Izumo Province and not named for the present-day Shimane Prefecture. DDH-182 is named for the defunct Ise Province and not named for the present day Mie Prefecture. DDH-181 is named for the defunct Hyuga Province and not named for the present-day Miyazaki Prefecture. Why invite associations to World War II-era dreadnoughts and aircraft carrier conversions and provoke memories of Japan's imperial past and conduct during World War II? Did the Japanese government ever pause to consider what the reaction would be by nations who suffered under Japanese occupation?

There's no doubt the current Japanese government is taking a more aggressive stance and the ship names aren't entirely coincidental to that. I'm not sure when they started reusing IJN ship names -- I recall that there was a small flap over the Kongo class, which have WW2 battleship or cruiser names.

"More aggressive stance" seems like a very odd phrase choice to characterize the Japanese government's moves from Article 9 pacifism to a policy of collective self-defense.

Although there may have been a flap over the name of DDG-173, Kongo is named for Mount Kongo in Osaka Prefecture. The names of the sister ships of her class and her successor class ships are also named for mountains in Japan. The names are in present-day use rather than the use of obsolete names for the DDHs.

 

[lastdingo]

https://defence-blog.com/news/leake...stroyer-conversion-into-aircraft-carrier.html

"Pictures of a possible Japanese helicopter destroyer JS Izumo conversion into a full-fledged aircraft carrier have appeared on social media. "

 

[Moose]

Just General Atomics trying to make a sale. The angled deck as pictured would cause more problems than it solved.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Just General Atomics trying to make a sale. The angled deck as pictured would cause more problems than it solved.

Quite possible. Then again the Acquisition, Technology & Logistics Agency is more than a bit of a disaster...

 

[sferrin]

 

[starviking]

Looks like they've sponsoned out the island: makes sense it will help balance the angled deck extension port-forward.

Notable that we don't have a stern or bow shot, it would likely show how tight a ship like this would be. Ditto for the lack of a notional embarked air group.

And finally, I'm no expert, but I have the feeling that landing on the deck in anything but clement conditions would be challenging.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Misdirection exercise, do you think?

 

[starviking]

Misdirection exercise, do you think?

I'm afraid you'll have to spell that out for me - too late here, grey cells are snoozing.

 

[Grey Havoc]

I was just wondering if they are actually planning to go in another direction altogether, i.e. with a clean sheet design.

 

[TomS]

Misdirection exercise, do you think?

Let's reiterate that this is a General Atomics speculation, not a concept developed in Japan. It would be a.massive rebuild, basically new from the hangar deck up.

 

[sferrin]

Misdirection exercise, do you think?

Let's reiterate that this is a General Atomics speculation, not a concept developed in Japan. It would be a.massive rebuild, basically new from the hangar deck up.

Like the Midway and Coral Sea. Or Shinano They have been eye-balling the Wasp/America though. IIRC they're interested in F-35Bs not Cs.

 

[starviking]

I was just wondering if they are actually planning to go in another direction altogether, i.e. with a clean sheet design.

It would have to work its way through the political process here in Japan - and with the controversy over PM Abe trying to amend the postwar constitution, it would probably be a very slow journey.

In another 10 years... who knows?

 

[starviking]

Misdirection exercise, do you think?

Let's reiterate that this is a General Atomics speculation, not a concept developed in Japan. It would be a.massive rebuild, basically new from the hangar deck up.

Like the Midway and Coral Sea. Or Shinano They have been eye-balling the Wasp/America though. IIRC they're interested in F-35Bs not Cs.

Bs indeed.

The Japan Times

News on Japan, Business News, Opinion, Sports, Entertainment and More article expired

www.japantimes.co.jp

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hxzn3v

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hxzn3v/5568_x_3712_the_searam_and_phalanx_ciws_mounted/

 

[TomS]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hxzn3v

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hxzn3v/5568_x_3712_the_searam_and_phalanx_ciws_mounted/

Interesting. First ship I know of with both Phalanx and Sea-RAM.

 

[Moose]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hxzn3v

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hxzn3v/5568_x_3712_the_searam_and_phalanx_ciws_mounted/

Interesting. First ship I know of with both Phalanx and Sea-RAM.

Four Flight I Burke class DDGs, the Rota-deployed ABM hulls beginning with USS Porter, were refitted with SeaRAM in place of the the aft Phalanx to facilitate their BMD mission. It gave them the ability to engage ballistic and sea-skimmer targets simultaneously without needing to be refit all the way to Aegis Baseline 9 (or above) at much greater expense.

 

[TomS]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hxzn3v

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hxzn3v/5568_x_3712_the_searam_and_phalanx_ciws_mounted/

Interesting. First ship I know of with both Phalanx and Sea-RAM.

Four Flight I Burke class DDGs, the Rota-deployed ABM hulls beginning with USS Porter, were refitted with SeaRAM in place of the the aft Phalanx to facilitate their BMD mission. It gave them the ability to engage ballistic and sea-skimmer targets simultaneously without needing to be refit all the way to Aegis Baseline 9 (or above) at much greater expense.

Thanks. I had somehow thought that those four didn't have the gun CIWS at all. For a while at least some Burkes didn't have any CIWS.

 

[Moose]

Makes for an interesting look when they have both types.

View: https://youtu.be/uNrp0JSW6u8

 

[Grey Havoc]

For a while at least some Burkes didn't have any CIWS.

A classic example of the infamous 'pennywise, pound foolish' paradigm in action.

 

[Tzoli]

I've found this short news article about a possible conversion of the Izumo class Helicopter Carriers erm Destroyers..... into full scale Carriers / Light Carriers:

В Сеть выложили изображение японского авианосца на базе вертолетоносца «Идзумо»

В обозримом будущем японский флот может получить собственный авианосец.

naked-science.ru

The model shows an extended angled flight deck and two catapults for F-35 Lightning II fighters and E-2 Hawkeye EW aircrafts.
Does anybody know more about this proposal?

The company General Atomics is an exiting American energetic and defence company:

General Atomics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lordroel]

I've found this short news article about a possible conversion of the Izumo class Helicopter Carriers erm Destroyers..... into full scale Carriers / Light Carriers

That would be the coolest destroyer i have ever seen.

 

[Arjen]

Stretching the 'destroyer' moniker beyond breaking point.

 

[Tzoli]

Found an English article:

Japenese Izumo-Class Helicopter Destroyer Converted to Aircraft Carriers - MilitaryLeak.COM

Currently, the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) has two Izumo-class helicopter carriers including the DDH-183 Izumo and the DDH-184 Kaga both will be

militaryleak.com

 

[lordroel]

Time to build this design and name the first one Akagi.

 

[1Big Rich]

I've found this short news article about a possible conversion of the Izumo class Helicopter Carriers erm Destroyers..... into full scale Carriers / Light Carriers:

В Сеть выложили изображение японского авианосца на базе вертолетоносца «Идзумо»

В обозримом будущем японский флот может получить собственный авианосец.

naked-science.ru

The model shows an extended angled flight deck and two catapults for F-35 Lightning II fighters and E-2 Hawkeye EW aircrafts.
Does anybody know more about this proposal?

The company General Atomics is an exiting American energetic and defence company:

General Atomics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

 

[sferrin]

Stretching the 'destroyer' moniker beyond breaking point.

"Cruiser":

 

[Dilandu]

"Cruiser":

Well, it's main armament is heavy anti-ship missiles & long-range area SAM, so what's the problem?)

 

[ex-PFC Slayden]

I believe the fighter aircraft on deck are F-35C, not the F-35B noted in the article. Their wings and tails are longer. If this plan came to fruition, it would mean Japan would operate all three versions of the F-35.

 

[JohnR]

How large is the hangar on the Izumo? Also as they were evolved from the Hyuga why was the MK41 VLS deleted, that would suggested the long term aim was to convert them to full aircraft carrier all along?

 

[TomS]

I've found this short news article about a possible conversion of the Izumo class Helicopter Carriers erm Destroyers..... into full scale Carriers / Light Carriers:

В Сеть выложили изображение японского авианосца на базе вертолетоносца «Идзумо»

В обозримом будущем японский флот может получить собственный авианосец.

naked-science.ru

The model shows an extended angled flight deck and two catapults for F-35 Lightning II fighters and E-2 Hawkeye EW aircrafts.
Does anybody know more about this proposal?

The company General Atomics is an exiting American energetic and defence company:

General Atomics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We had a thread before: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/jmsdf-22ddh.14116/#post-371122

It's a General Atomics concept done without necessarily having access to the Izumo design. It would entail basically cutting the ship down to the hangar deck and starting over.

 

[TomS]

I believe the fighter aircraft on deck are F-35C, not the F-35B noted in the article. Their wings and tails are longer. If this plan came to fruition, it would mean Japan would operate all three versions of the F-35.

Also, the text on the slide says "F-35C." That would only make sense, because the sketch is intended for showing off the General Atomics electromagnetic catapults, which the B model can't use. But this idea doesn't seem to have any real traction, and it's not something the JMSDF are seriously interested in.

If you're talking about the Military Leak article in English, that talks about F-35B because Japan has ordered those and confirmed that the Izumos will be modified to support them. (article)

 

[Tzoli]

Artist impression of the Izumo with Ski-Jump:

èªç©ºæ©æè¼åè·è¡è¦

以åæããè·è¡è¦ãããã«ã¹ãã¼ã¸ã£ã³ããæã足ãã¾ãããæ ç»ã«ãªã£ããã®æ¶ç©ºè¦ã®ã¤ãã Acrylic painting 242Ã333mm

www.pixiv.net

The artist written it's a hypothetical drawing but I'm not so sure it would not look like this with a real ski-jump or if no such project proposed even in the preliminary phase

 

[Grey Havoc]

It is a nice drawing.

 

[helmutkohl]

Pictures of the new Japanese aircraft carrier JS Izumo after modificat

According to a tweet published by Alsace_class on June 25, 2021, pictures unveil a new flight deck of future aircraft carrier JS Izumo and changes to fligh

www.navyrecognition.com

Izumo spotted after modifications

Before

After

 

[Dilandu]

Pictures of the new Japanese aircraft carrier JS Izumo after modificat

According to a tweet published by Alsace_class on June 25, 2021, pictures unveil a new flight deck of future aircraft carrier JS Izumo and changes to fligh

www.navyrecognition.com

Izumo spotted after modifications

Before


After

This bow CIWS still looks a bit out of place... wouldn't it hamper the flight operations?

 

[helmutkohl]

Pictures of the new Japanese aircraft carrier JS Izumo after modificat

According to a tweet published by Alsace_class on June 25, 2021, pictures unveil a new flight deck of future aircraft carrier JS Izumo and changes to fligh

www.navyrecognition.com

Izumo spotted after modifications

Before


After

This bow CIWS still looks a bit out of place... wouldn't it hamper the flight operations?

i assume they might move it during the second refit 3 years from now

 

[Thorvic]

Izumo has had the initial mods to allow trials of the F-35B, Kaga will get the full modifications in her refit.
With USS America ARG currently stationed in the Far East and HMS Queen Elizabeth due over the summer for joint exercises i guess the JMSDF officials will be asking a lot of questions and doing a lot of studying of both ships F-35B operations.