Italian SLBM ALFA Missile

[archipeppe]

Dear All,

did you have any useful information about the Italian SLBM Alfa missile?
It was developed during '60s, when Italy had some nuclear ambition (see nuclare submarine project named "Guglielmo Marconi", or the logistic ship named "Enrico Fermi") and was designed and produced by SNIA BPD (now AVIO Group).
It was realized in several prototypes tested at leas three times during the early '70s by Perdasdefogu Test Range (located in East Sardinia), when Italian's ambition was vanished and used only as technological testbed.

The missile was all solid propellants, two stage (resembling a Polaris A2 American missile), with an operative range of 4-5.000 km. Only few informations, and a little bunch of photos, are currently available in Italy.

For such mysterious reason the programme, at least in Italy, is still "black" even if it has more than 40 years....

 

[Michel Van]

Encyclopedia Astronautica Index: 1

www.astronautix.com

to background
in beginn of 1960s alot of Europe state wanted the Atom bomb
next to GB, France (who have the bomb). Switzerland , Yugoslavia and Rumania wanted also the A-bomb
and in the middle of it Italy...

they had Idea to equip them with american nuclear weapons under the NATO Multilateral Nuclear Force (MLF) concept
and modified the 1930s-era Cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi with four launch tubes for Polaris missiles.

the USA was not pleased (and USSR also)
so how it end ?
at 1977 Switzerland canceled its Program because Cost overrun
in march 1970 Rumania is hit on finger by USSR
Yugoslavia work on project until was canceled middle 1970s
and Italy work until 1980 on ALFA rocket...

 

[archipeppe]

they had Idea to equip them withmerican nuclear weapons under the NATO Multilateral Nuclear Force (MLF) concept
and modified the 1930s-era Cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi with four launch tubes for Polaris missiles. ;eingestelltD

Absolutely correct.
Alfa was more intended as surface launche missile rather than submerged one.

In early '60s the Garibaldi C551 (former ship of "Duca degli Abruzzi" class) was transferred in shipyard for major refurbishment including a new back (more like American destroyers), a Terrier self defence missile systems, and four pit for "hot launch" of Polaris-like missiles.
For sure this pits would match with Alfa missiles.

Garibaldi eventually shoot, at least once, a real Polaris A1 (with dummy warhead of course) during a trial soon after its re-launch.

 

[Skybolt]

Not so mysterious considering how politics in Italy are... :

 

[archipeppe]

Not so mysterious considering how politics in Italy are... :

Unfortunately you're right....

 

[Michel Van]

question to Picture n0432dg

that Rocket fired from Garibaldi C551 dosend look like a Polaris A-1 to me...

see picture Polaris A-1 and that rocket of Garibaldi C551 to Compare


p.s.
question to archipeppe
you are also Member in http://www.forumastronautico.it ?

 

[archipeppe]

question to archipeppe
you are also Member in http://www.forumastronautico.it ?

Of course Michel!!

 

[Michel Van]

Benvenuti in questo forum ;D

show your Space grafic in The Bar or Scale Modelling, Fan Art & Profiles !

 

[archipeppe]

Benvenuti in questo forum ;D

show your Space grafic in The Bar or Scale Modelling, Fan Art & Profiles !

Grazie Michel!!!!

I will post for sure some my graphics especially dedicated to the topics of this Forum as soon as possible.
Anyway I found a lot of nice and cute graphics made by other people who write in this Forum also.

Currently, after the enormous work I've done for the upcoming X15 presentation (for the next AstronautiCon in Montecatini, near Florence) I will try out to make the three views of ALFA missile.

 

[zhuravlik]

Hi lads,

I've found another little piece of information (sorry, in italian):


Il servizio segreto militare, che vanta una storia centenaria, fu quasi sempre all'altezza dei suoi compiti, riuscendo a scoprire non poche volte le spie sovietiche in Italia. Il SID (questo il suo nome nei primi anni '70) aveva scoperto che Tito, dopo aver firmato e ratificato il TNP, proseguiva indisturbato, sia pure in maniera più discreta, il suo programma di svilluppo nucleare militare. L'Italia reagì insabbiando in parlamento la ratifica del TNP, e rilanciando in grande stile sul piano militare. Il tutto, ovviamente, tenendo lontano l'occhio indiscreto dei mass-media.

Nel 1971 nasce quindi il progetto ALFA. Esso si proponeva la realizzazione di un grosso missile balistico dalle prestazioni paragonabili a quelle dei Polaris, che una decina d'anni prima gli USA si erano rifiutati di venderci. La portata di tale missile era di circa 1.600 Km. Questo vuol dire che ponendo una nave equipaggiata con tali ordigni nell'Adriatico, bastava premere un bottone per colpire la capitale di qualunque paese (URSS esclusa) dell'est Europa!

Lo sviluppo di tale missile proseguì a gonfie vele e si giunse alla sperimentazione finale nella metà degli anni '70. Tre i lanci di prova, tutti ovviamente con carica inerte nella testata, e tre furono i successi! A questo punto, una volta in possesso di armi nucleari, a parte l'URSS nessun paese avrebbe potuto minacciarci.

Ovviamente a questo punto si fecero molto forti le pressioni internazionali affinchè l'Italia abbandonasse lo sviluppo di tali armamenti, e per l'URSS fu relativamente facile convincere Tito che la prosecuzione del suo programma nucleare sarebbe stato controproducente per la Jugoslavia, perchè avrebbe determinato la nascita in Italia di un ben più temibile armamento.

Nel 1975 finalmente il nostro parlamento ratificò il TNP, ed il programma di ricerca sul nucleare militare si fermò. Anche lo sviluppo del missile Alfa fu abbandonato, non prima, però, di aver affettuato i sopracitati lanci di prova, rispettivamente tra la fine del 1975 e l'inizio del 1976, quasi a voler far capire alla Jugoslavia che l'arma era pronta ed in caso di necessità bisognava solo costruirla in grande serie e riprendere il programma di ricerca nucleare.

From Pagine di Difesa Forum:

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Regards

Zhuravlik

 

[archipeppe]

Umhh really, really interesting.

Thanks a lot for this political side of the story that I missed.

P.S. Once I read (I don't remember when and where) that the famous Rocket Pioneer Hermann Oberth cooperated with SNIA-BPD in the development of the ALFA missile in late '60s.
Anyone knows something about that?
It is true or it is only an "urban legend"??

 

[Michel Van]

Grazie zhuravlik
this is a Ruff Translation with help of Google

The military secret service, which boasts a history, it was almost always to carry out his duties, managed to discover many times Soviet spies in Italy.

The SID (this is the name in the early'70s) had discovered that Tito, having signed and ratified the NPT, continued undisturbed, albeit in a more discreet its nuclear program svilluppo military. Italy reacted insabbiando parliamentary ratification of the NPT, and relaunching major offensive on the military side. All, of course, taking away the eye indiscreet media.

In 1971 then comes the ALFA project. It proposed the creation of a large ballistic missile performance comparable to that of Polaris, that ten years earlier the United States had refused to sell. The scope of this missile was around 1,600 km. This means that putting a ship equipped with such devices in the Adriatic, just press a button to hit the capital of any country (excluding the former USSR) Eastern Europe!

The development of such a missile went swollen sails and came to final testing in the mid-70s. Three test launches, all of course with inert in the head office, and three were successes! At this point, once in possession of nuclear weapons, apart from the USSR no country could minacciarci.

Obviously at this point we made very strong international pressure to Italy had abandoned the development of such weapons, and the USSR was relatively easy to convince Titus that the continuation of its nuclear program would be counterproductive for Yugoslavia, why would determine the born in Italy of a far more formidable weapons.

In 1975 our parliament finally ratified the NPT, and the research program on nuclear weapons stopped. The development of missile Alfa was abandoned, but not before, however, he had affettuato the above test launches respectively between late 1975 and early 1976, as if to make it clear to Yugoslavia that the weapon was ready and if need be only construct large batch and resume nuclear research program.

 

[red admiral]

http://www.museotecniconavale.it/collezioni/07cannoni/descr/cann16.htm

I found this model in the Naval Museum in La Spezia whilst looking through their photos. This picture is a bit clearer than the other.

 

[archipeppe]

http://www.museotecniconavale.it/collezioni/07cannoni/descr/cann16.htm

I found this model in the Naval Museum in La Spezia whilst looking through their photos. This picture is a bit clearer than the other.

Cool picture, it demonstrates that some scale models of ALFA there were built, as I always supposed.
Glad to know that at least one of this model is still surviving.

Many thanks red admiral.

 

[Skybolt]

Sorry for being so late, since I sit on this info since last November... Anyway, there is a surviving Alfa (not a model, the actual thing) in the Museum of the Aeronautica Militare base in Cameri, near Novara, just across the Ticino river from Malpensa Airport. The missile is complete and in good conditions, apart from some weathering (it is an open air museum). Is is on a side and can be easily looked at. Uh, forgot, there is a small colour photo of the missile in Cameri in the most recent issue of Ali Antiche, the bullettin of the GAVS (Gruppo Amici Velivoli Storici, www.gavs.it ), the one with the restored MB-308 on the cover (great restoration, BTW). Should be N.84.

 

[Michel Van]

i love Google Earth
look wat the Cat found

Miau

 

[Skybolt]

Michel, you were reading my mind, I swear I was posting exactly the same image...
A correction, the issue of Ali Antiche is n.85, page 25 at the bottom.

 

[archipeppe]

i love Google Earth
look wat the Cat found

Miau

Incredible finding!!!!
Many, many thanks Michel!!!!!

 

[Michel Van]

do we have member of this forum who life near
the Museum of the Aeronautica Militare base in Cameri,( Novara, Italy) ?

and can take some picture of the ALFA, Please !

 

[archipeppe]

do we have member of this forum who life near
the Museum of the Aeronautica Militare base in Cameri,( Novara, Italy) ?

and can take some picture of the ALFA, Please !

Absolutely!!! Absolutely!!

 

[Skybolt]

Museum closed to the general public till this fall. I'll post the photo from Ali Antiche.

 

[archipeppe]

Finally, after a long elaboration, I managed to realize an early (and I hope realistic) drawing of the ALFA missile.
Comments and suggestion are, as always, very welcomed.

Enjoy it...

 

[cardonet]

do we have member of this forum who life near
the Museum of the Aeronautica Militare base in Cameri,( Novara, Italy) ?

and can take some picture of the ALFA, Please !

Absolutely!!! Absolutely!!

Picture by Paolo Stanchina (through Paolo Ulivi)

 

[Skybolt]

Very well.

 

[Michel Van]

poor ALFA need a repaint :'(

 

[archipeppe]

poor ALFA need a repaint :'(

Sure, something like that deserves a better treatment.
A restoration and a good positioning in a museum such Vigna di Valle.

Shame on that!!!!

 

[Michel Van]

poor ALFA need a repaint :'(

Sure, something like that deserves a better treatment.
A restoration and a good positioning in a museum such Vigna di Valle.

Shame on that!!!!

the Europe 2 rocket at Redu, Belgium
is also in bad shape because is stored outdoor :'(

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Giuseppe, great job my friend. Now I was just wondering, however, if Italy ever considered using Alfa or a derivative as a launch vehicle.

 

[archipeppe]

Giuseppe, great job my friend. Now I was just wondering, however, if Italy ever considered using Alfa or a derivative as a launch vehicle.

Nice question.

I suppose that Alfa was too much "taylored" for its purpose to become a cost effective satellite launcher (think about the poor performance of all former-USSR ICBM and SLBM converted in launchers, with the exception of R7 family).
For sure its technology was not "wasted" but implemented in other programmes, like Ariane solid boosters, San Marco Scout project and even the Vega project.

 

[Pioneer]

Found these photos of Giuseppe Garibaldi’s 4 x UGM-27 Polaris SLBM launch tubes, which would have been used for Italy's 'Alfa' missiles

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Archibald]

Scratching my head... 1600 km from the Adriatic is, indeed, enough to nuke Moscow. But the platform... a cruiser ? standing like a huge target on the surface of the sea ? Try giving that Alfa... SLBM a submarine ! Or an underground silo... SLBM: Ship (not Sub !) Launched Ballistic Missile ? not sure it is a good idea...
Or maybe the goal was just to scare the living bejesus, not of Brezhnev, but of Tito...

Hmmm... well not Moscow: from Trieste, it is 2000 km to the Kremlin...

https://www.distance.to/Trieste,ITA/Moscow-Kremlin,Troitskiy-most,Moscow,101000,RUS

Then again, Alfa was the size and weight of a Polaris A1 or A2, and they could hit much farther than 1600 km... even the A1 had a 2200 km range. And A2 immediately did better.

Polaris A1 - United States Nuclear Forces

Polaris A2 - United States Nuclear Forces

 

[Michel Van]

Scratching my head... 1600 km from the Adriatic is, indeed, enough to nuke Moscow.

you need 2200 km range to hit Moscow from Italy.
with 1600 km range however you cover entire East Europe
if fired from Tyrrhenian Sea.

 

[NMaude]

Picture by Paolo Stanchina (through Paolo Ulivi)

I hope that missile has been given restoration treatment and is housed inside out of the elements since that photograph was taken.

 

[Deleted member 4286]

Dear All,

did you have any useful information about the Italian SLBM Alfa missile?
It was developed during '60s, when Italy had some nuclear ambition (see nuclare submarine project named "Guglielmo Marconi", or the logistic ship named "Enrico Fermi") and was designed and produced by SNIA BPD (now AVIO Group).
It was realized in several prototypes tested at leas three times during the early '70s by Perdasdefogu Test Range (located in East Sardinia), when Italian's ambition was vanished and used only as technological testbed.

The missile was all solid propellants, two stage (resembling a Polaris A2 American missile), with an operative range of 4-5.000 km. Only few informations, and a little bunch of photos, are currently available in Italy.

For such mysterious reason the programme, at least in Italy, is still "black" even if it has more than 40 years....

Some information, rather complete on the blog SVPPB (Si VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM); In italian (already posted here?)

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

svppbellum.blogspot.com

 

[NMaude]

Some information, rather complete on the blog SVPPB (Si VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM); In italian (already posted here?)

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

svppbellum.blogspot.com

If you click on the link and scroll over halfway down there's the English version.

 

[Deleted member 4286]

If you quick on the link and scroll over halfway down there's the English version.

Thanks but I am fluent in italian ; good fr other members; very good italian site

 

[Deleted member 4286]

This missile was smaller than the Polaris 1 ; length 6,5 m vs 8, 5m and weight 10,7 tons vs 13 tons.

 

[NMaude]

This missile was smaller than the Polaris 1 ; length 6,5 m vs 8, 5m and weight 10,7 tons vs 13 tons.

So Polaris A3 lite?

 

[Deleted member 4286]

So Polaris A3 lite?

The A 3 was much longer 9,7m and heavier16,3tons.

 

[Deleted member 4286]

So Polaris A3 lite?

A Polaris A1 Lite would be a better description; developed 10-12 years after the Polaris 1.