Italian projects

Status
Not open for further replies.
HI! I need help about these aircraft,
IMAM Ro 45
Piaggio P-111
FIAT BGA
all were prototypes and ,please, I need the three views and data technical. I am showing some photos, less than Fiat BGA,
piaggiop111.jpg
;)
piaggio.jpg

ro450.jpg

I really know that they are difficult to find, by the little documentation of the Italian airplanes of pre war. Thanks for your time
 
The BGA was a bomber prototipe with quite average performaces, had 2 x 14 cilinders radial 1000hp fiat engines. 3 turrets with 7,7mm Bredas and a max speed of 400 km/h.This bomber was designed by Ing. Aldo Guglielmetti of the Genio Aeronautico (Aeronautical Engineers) of the Italian AF, hence the designation B.G.A. (Bombardamento Genio Aeronautico). The sole aircraft was built by Fiat's subsidiary CMASA in 1937.

4158L.jpg
 
Hello! Reading the story of the twin-engine seaplane Fiat RS.14 I found something about a ground attack aircraft designated Fiat AS.14. From what I understand of this variant had been built a prototype that was also tested at guidonia in 1943. Unfortunately, I didn't discover more information and photograph, someone knows something more? Thanks to all in advance.
 
All I can provide is a photo (obviously somewhat retouched), I once got via the now defunct
Airwarfare-Forum, source wasn't mentioned unfortuantely.
 

Attachments

  • Fiat_Breda_AS-14.jpg
    Fiat_Breda_AS-14.jpg
    29.4 KB · Views: 232
I'll add another one. Unfortunately, I can't remember the source.
 

Attachments

  • Fiat A.S.14_02.jpg
    Fiat A.S.14_02.jpg
    23.1 KB · Views: 222
I found a short piece on the Fiat RS-14 at http://nhungdoicanh.blogspot.com/2010/05/fiat-rs-14.html; 9 photos and 2 drawings. Clearly not the same as the Fiat Breda AS-14, but has features in common. Of any interest?
 

Attachments

  • Fiat RS14-3v.jpg
    Fiat RS14-3v.jpg
    168.9 KB · Views: 412
  • Fiat RS14-7.jpg
    Fiat RS14-7.jpg
    133.8 KB · Views: 365
Mmmm, Fiat-Breda is spurious. The AS.14 (Assalto Stiavelli) was built in the FIAT's Pisa subsidiary (CMASA). By that time, Breda was akready working on the Leone all-metal version and on the BZ-30X series, which contained aircrafts designed for the same AS.14 mission.
 
Hi,

I found that PDF report about Italian aircraft,and there is many unknown
aircraft and projects,such as IMAM Ro.6,may be developed from Ro.5 as
a military aircraft,Breda Ba.23,may be light aircraft or light transport and
CANSA CT.24 a project,the later I never heard about it,may be someone
discovers what are those mystery aircraft ?.

http://www.ab-ix.co.uk/italy.pdf
 
This is a list of Italian civil and military registration numbers and as there are indeed
some numbers quoted as belonging to projects, I would think, that those aircraft at
least were ordered ?
Good find, Hesham !
 
That list is a condensed version of the big "Libro delle Matricole" discovered 15 years ago by Andrea Curami and Gregory Alegy plus some info extracted from various unreliable sources (Arena, et al...). For example, MM541 assigned to Re-2007 is totally fantastic (Re-2007 was never ordered and BTW was a post-war design, see my famous post somewhere on this forum, that serial was assigned to second proto of Re-2006, never built). Prototypical serials were in MM-XXX format. When a design was ordered, an MM-XXX serial was assigned. Sometimes MM-XXXs were recycled: the ones assigned to Ro-58 were originally those of Ro-67. Sometimes they weren't.
 
Thank you my dears Jemiba and Skybolt;

but we know there is a two designs,IMAM Ro.6 and Breda Ba.23,whatever
they were,but what about CANSA CT.24,was this a real project to it ?.
 
The Romeo Ro.6 was definitely built in series. The Golden Years site shows 8 built.* The existence of at least six of these is confirmed by Flight in 1930. Flight mentions both Romeo Ro.5 and Ro.6 as participants in the 1930 Giro Aereo d'Italia.

Contest numbers and pilot names were:

Romeo Ro.5 - #2 Fumagalli, #25 Suffo, #33 Di Loreto
Romeo Ro.6 - #22 Fougier, #26 Liberati, #31 Lana , #39 Guazzetti, #46 Bertocco, #52 Gelmetti

Power for both was an 85hp Fiat (presumably the Ro.6 used the same 63kW Fiat A.50 7-cylinder radial as the Ro.5) but the two types were placed in different weight classes. Unfortunately there are no other details of the Ro.6 type.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1930/untitled0%20-%201047.html

* I-AAVL, I-VAGO, I-VENI, I-VEDO, I-VELA, I-VICI, I-VIDI, and I-VINI registered in 1929/1930. I'm assuming that the 1936 I-CASO, I-CINE, and I-NIDO are re-registers from among those original 8 Ro-6s.
 
The CANSA CT.24 was troop-carrying glider project with a planned payload of 2,500 kg. The MM number was assigned because the CT.24 was ordered on 14 April 1942 along with the CAT TM.3.

The CAT TM.2 and Aeronautica Lombarda AL.12P glider designs had already been ordered in January 1942 along with Stefanutti's lighter assault-type SCA.2 (a DFS.230 copy later replaced by the original SCA.3 design in the same weight category as the CT.24).
 
Thank you my dear Apophenia very much,

it is very nice to get the CANSA projects,such as FC.11 trainer,FC.14 a developed
version of FC.12 and FC.18;
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3542.0/highlight,cansa+18.html

now we still don't know the Breda Ba.23.
 
hesham said:
...
now we still don't know the Breda Ba.23.

The Breda 23 is mentioned in both Air Britain and Golden Years lists as Ba.25 I-ABFP transferred to "military administration" in 1937 as Breda 23 I-ABPP. The source is given as ICAN 788.

If accurate, the Breda 23 was a variation on the Ba.25 biplane trainer theme. The question is: why assign a lower numbered designation to this modification half a decade later?

Without another source, we must also consider the possibility that both "Breda 23" and "I-ABPP" were simply typos in that original International Commission for Air Navigation document.
 
about Cant Z. Aircrafts , well, i remember profile of Cant Z.1014 , i know there was a version idro as project named "Cant Z.512"
i have found a list inside this forum
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10494.0;wap2

But exist images about Cant Z.512 ?
 
Apophenia said:
The CANSA CT.24 was troop-carrying glider project with a planned payload of 2,500 kg. The MM number was assigned because the CT.24 was ordered on 14 April 1942 along with the CAT TM.3.

The CAT TM.2 and Aeronautica Lombarda AL.12P glider designs had already been ordered in January 1942 along with Stefanutti's lighter assault-type SCA.2 (a DFS.230 copy later replaced by the original SCA.3 design in the same weight category as the CT.24).

Hi Apophenia,

do you have drawings from this projects?

Servus Maveric
 
Maveric: No luck on the CT.24. I just have the CAT TM.2.

See here for a 3-view of the Aeronautica Lombarda AL.12P:
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/glider/al12p/al12p-1.gif
 

Attachments

  • it-TM2-3v.jpg
    it-TM2-3v.jpg
    15.5 KB · Views: 559
Hi javierarg,
a bit lately I try an answer to your post of November 25 last, even I think that this answer could deserve a separate thread, devoted to P.111. The moderator will decide about.
As you know, Piaggio's eng. Casiraghi had a 'penchant' for pressurised aircraft and engine buried in the fuselage or wing section (but that is not the case for P.111). Italian industry lacked any experience in pressurised fuselage and in 1937 Casiraghi started the project of a twin-engined testbed, the P.111. Initially the aircraft was conceived with a twin-boom layout and we have two sideview of the early development even I'm not sure that the lower silhoutte is referred to a second twin-boom solution or is a single fuselage design.
We have also the picture of two wind tunnel models (improperly exhibited with a planform drawing of the SIAI-Marchetti S.55M; Piaggio as the licence to develop the metal version of it). To me the model on the left in the photo seems to be the first P.111 configuration; the right model could be a later development but could also be an aerodynamic model for the P.125 (a drawing by Gaspare Santangelo, licensed to Piaggio).
By the way, the P.111 was built as a very elegant and modern aircraft with conventional fuselage, containing an internal pressurized cockpit.
The aircraft was flown by test pilot Nicolò Lana, at Albenga-Villanova, on 9 April 1941, probably with two Piaggio P.XI RC.60-72 engine, later replaced (or to be replaced) by two P.XII RC.100/2v Tornado, rated at 1.000 PS, with Piaggio P.4003 wide-chord propellers. The prototype performed 110 test flights until the Spring of 1943, when was scrapped. During its career no attempt of altitude record was done.
Known technical data are:
wingspan 17.30 m, lenght 12.02 m, height 5.45 m, wing area 39.70 sq. m, empty weight 4,680 kg, loaded 6,800 kg, maximum take-off weight 7,575 kg, max speed 575 km/h at 10,000 m (400 km/h at sea level), service ceiling 12,000 m, range 1,660 km.
 

Attachments

  • Early_p.111.jpg
    Early_p.111.jpg
    174.9 KB · Views: 622
  • P.111_3-view.jpg
    P.111_3-view.jpg
    843.8 KB · Views: 229
...here are the photographs of the two wind tunnel models, of the mock-up and of the prototype during construction...

Nico
 

Attachments

  • P.111_15.jpg
    P.111_15.jpg
    81.4 KB · Views: 153
  • P.111_22.jpg
    P.111_22.jpg
    90.3 KB · Views: 160
  • P.111_models.jpg
    P.111_models.jpg
    351.2 KB · Views: 221
...and some othe pictures of the p.111 at the eve of the roll-out
Nico
 

Attachments

  • P.111_(3:4).jpg
    P.111_(3:4).jpg
    600 KB · Views: 185
  • P.111_33.jpg
    P.111_33.jpg
    251.3 KB · Views: 165
I agree with Nico: that's the Caccia Santangelo, that Piaggio was forced to built (and in fact succeeded in not building...).
 
So, the P.125 or Caccia Santangelo is not an iteration of the first P.111 concept. Instead, the P.125 simply shares the same general layout (albeit lacking the P.111 booms' open framework)?
 
I am not sure I understand. Do you mean the wind-tunnel model on the left (several booms as profile) is the P.111 and the one on the right (pure twin-boom) is P.125 = Santangelo Combattimento?
 
Yes, Tophe,
the wooden model on the left is related to the first 'avanprogetto' (pre-project) of P.111, depicted in the upper sideview of the other JPG. On the right is the aerodynamic model of the Santangelo's P.125, absolutely unrelated to the P.111
Nico
 
Many thanks for such wealth of info about P-111.
It was a lot of time that I was looking for a decent 3-views of this plane.

Probably it could worth to do full color 3-views of mine..... ::)
 
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww1/ch1.html

Caproni Ch-1

In 1934, designer Antonio Chiodo has developed its fighter project for the firm Caproni. It was aerodynamically clean single-metal construction Single Column biplane armed with two synchronized 7.7-mm machine gun Breda-SAFAT. Chiyoda planned to be installed on fighter engine chetyrnadtsatitsilindrovy French Gnome-Rhone 14Kfs Mistral Major power of 780 hp, but due to the lack of it had to install the Italian - devyatitsilindrovy Piaggio P. IX RC40 power of 560 hp

The aircraft, designated CH-1, first flew in May 1935. During the tests the aircraft piloted by himself Antonio Chiodo.

After completion of factory tests Regia Aeronautica requested a fighter in the center Guidonia Montecelio for comparative trials with Fiat CR.32. CH-1 exceeded the "challenger" in the range (1000 km vs. 780 at Fiat) and some speed (377 mph vs. 335), but inferior in weaponry. However, in August 1935 the aircraft was destroyed during testing. Restore it did not.

(translation with Google Translate :-[ )
 

Attachments

  • ch1-2.jpg
    ch1-2.jpg
    34.6 KB · Views: 120
Hi friends!
I found these drawings in an old issue of aerofan. They refer to the Fiat AS 14, which, unfortunately, is only the side, the Savoia Marchetti SM 86 and the Caproni Ca.360, of which I know only that it was a derivate of the Ca 331.
I hope you like!
 

Attachments

  • CA360.png
    CA360.png
    1.2 MB · Views: 572
  • SM86trittico.png
    SM86trittico.png
    428.9 KB · Views: 546
  • AS14profilo.png
    AS14profilo.png
    201.5 KB · Views: 531
Nico, you're great.
Thank you very much, all three views are phenomenal! , I have sought (by Aerofan) and never could get the three views.
Sorry for the delay in my reply.
I appreciate your answer.
There are few data from Italian aircraft, which went from the prototype stage.
 
Caproni Ch-1 additional info -post-1
 

Attachments

  • Escanear0001.jpg
    Escanear0001.jpg
    424.3 KB · Views: 134
  • Escanear0002.jpg
    Escanear0002.jpg
    151.9 KB · Views: 148
  • Escanear0003.jpg
    Escanear0003.jpg
    310.3 KB · Views: 115
Caproni Ch-1 additional info -post-2
Sources
_Le Fanatique de lÁviation
-Flaps
 

Attachments

  • Escanear0004.jpg
    Escanear0004.jpg
    673.5 KB · Views: 106
Sr. Miranda, que buenos recuerdos de la revista Flaps! De este lado del Atlantico, claro, dificil de conseguir. Muy buenos, en particular los especiales dedicados a los aviones Italianos (uno sobre FIAT, es el que tengo mas presente y guardo con mucho cuidado).
Igual, siempre hay modelos de los que se puede conseguir poca informacion (el Romeo Ro.45, por ejemplo), Las prototipos de preguerra son realmente dificiles. Siempre que aparecen numeros de Aerofan sueltos en ebay, sobre todos los anteriores a los 90, trato de conseguirlos.
Gracias.

Mr. Miranda, who fond memories of the magazine Flaps! On this side of the Atlantic, of course, difficult to obtain. Very good, particularly the special dedicated to the Italian aircraft (one on FIAT, is that I have more present and I keep very carefully).
Still, there are always models you can get little information (the Romeo Ro.45, for example), the pre-war prototypes are really difficult. Whenever Aerofan numbers appear on ebay loose on all previous to 90, I try to get them.

Thanks!
 
Hi,
Here it is a project of "Aeronautica Bonomi" of 1936: the Bonomi B.S. 25. The producer, specialized in gliders and wooden constructions, made this aircraft for the assault-bomber role and realized a wind-tunnel model, but the project doesn't pass that stage.
P.S. to javierarg: thanks a lot for the 3-views of the BGA! Do you also have a better resolution picture? ;-)
The pictures are taken from "Aerofan N° 51/52 1989"
 

Attachments

  • 3-view.jpg
    3-view.jpg
    862.5 KB · Views: 438
  • view-2.jpg
    view-2.jpg
    431.3 KB · Views: 442
  • view-1.jpg
    view-1.jpg
    475.5 KB · Views: 473
Some one please show me 3 side view of this Caproni Ca60 giant flying boat.
 

Attachments

  • CaproniCa.60.jpg
    CaproniCa.60.jpg
    35.3 KB · Views: 350
  • ca.60 2.jpg
    ca.60 2.jpg
    45.1 KB · Views: 179
  • ca.60 3.jpg
    ca.60 3.jpg
    59.4 KB · Views: 65
  • ca.60 4.jpg
    ca.60 4.jpg
    49 KB · Views: 58
  • ca.60 5.jpg
    ca.60 5.jpg
    35.7 KB · Views: 65
From Angelucci "Weltenzyklopädie der Flugzeuge Bd.2 - Zivilflugzeuge":
 

Attachments

  • Caproni Ca 60.gif
    Caproni Ca 60.gif
    41.5 KB · Views: 112
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom