Italian fighter projects

[Apophenia]

what was Caproni Bergamo Ostro II ?.

The text says it's a figther studied by Cesare Pallavicino between 1935 and 1937. On a side note, ironically Pallavicino was the designer of the Lambretta scooter, the main rival of the Vespa produced by the rival aviation firm Piaggio.

Yep. AFAIK, the Roman numerals were added later to rationalize Pallavicino's Ostro design series. The Ostro II dates to August 1936. It was powered by a 835 hp Isotta Fraschini Asso XI RC V-12 and had a span 12.00 m. Armament was twin 12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT machine guns.

The Ostro III of December 1936 was similar but powered by an Hispano-Suiza 12Y cdrs moteur-canon V-12. The Ostro IV of June 1937 returned to the I-F Asso engine but with its span reduced by a metre.

 

[hesham]

From, Aerei Nella Storia 61,

the Macchi C.208.

 

[Apophenia]

the Macchi C.208.

The Aerei Nella Storia artist obviously thought that spare P-51 cowlings would be available to Macchi

My guess is that the nose of the proposed C.208 would have looked rather more like that of the Fiat G.59.

 

[hesham]

Yep. AFAIK, the Roman numerals were added later to rationalize Pallavicino's Ostro design series. The Ostro II dates to August 1936. It was powered by a 835 hp Isotta Fraschini Asso XI RC V-12 and had a span 12.00 m. Armament was twin 12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT machine guns.

From, Caproni-Abate-Rosario-Gli-Aeroplani Della Caproni Aeronautica Bergamasca-Vol-1,

The Ostro I and Ostro II drawings.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I can't ID this Italian biplane Fighter.maybe a Project ?.

. Italiano: Progetto motore aeronautico b8/110 . 10 July 2012. Unknown 17 Cassani motore b8 Stock Photo - Alamy

Download this stock image: . Italiano: Progetto motore aeronautico b8/110 . 10 July 2012. Unknown 17 Cassani motore b8 - P2M5A4 from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.

www.alamy.com

 

[Hardrada55]

Project for Cassani barrel shaped diesel engines

The SAME, but Different.....

Digging deep here! For all you knowledgeable Engine Tech-Heads, this, a most obscure, little known aero-engine, the Motore d'aviazione a revolver - Tipo PLA 500 BFA I want to discover more about the Italian SAME 'Revolver' axial aero-engine designed by the Cassani brothers. Don't have a lot...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[hesham]

You are right Hardada55,

and maybe it had been done by supercharge of Caproni-Bergamo ?!;

B8 / 110 motor mounting drawing pat. Cassani on hunting, 1938.
[SDF Historical archive of technical drawings, Treviglio (Bergamo)].

- I beni storico-aeronautici nel contesto del patrimonio culturale

 

[Apophenia]

... maybe it had been done by supercharge of Caproni-Bergamo ?!; ...

This has no relationship with Caproni-Bergamo ... except for by being in the same province. Here, the reference is to the town of Treviglio in the province of Bergamo. Caproni Aeronautica Bergamasca was based 25 km away in Ponte San Pietro - in the western outskirts of the town of Bergamo (the capital of the province of the same name).

A minor point but drawings read 'SPICA GENOVA' ... and I'm finding this Tuscan location for SPICA S.p.A. (Società Pompe Iniezione Cassani e Affini) confusing.

Most other sources place SPICA in Tuscany. FWIW, it seems that from 1938 to the sale of SPICA S.p.A. in 1941, SPICA offices were in Livorno with its injection pump factory nearby Ardenza district. So, where does Genoa come into all this?

___________________________________________

Relazioni internazionali, 7 Settembre 1940 - A. XVII, page 1681

"... l'ampliamento degli implanti de Livorno della Società anonima Spica [sic] per la produzione di pompe de iniezione per motori Diesel..."

 

[iverson]

... maybe it had been done by supercharge of Caproni-Bergamo ?!; ...

This has no relationship with Caproni-Bergamo ... except for by being in the same province. Here, the reference is to the town of Treviglio in the province of Bergamo. Caproni Aeronautica Bergamasca was based 25 km away in Ponte San Pietro - in the western outskirts of the town of Bergamo (the capital of the province of the same name).

A minor point but drawings read 'SPICA GENOVA' ... and I'm finding this Tuscan location for SPICA S.p.A. (Società Pompe Iniezione Cassani e Affini) confusing.

Most other sources place SPICA in Tuscany. FWIW, it seems that from 1938 to the sale of SPICA S.p.A. in 1941, SPICA offices were in Livorno with its injection pump factory nearby Ardenza district. So, where does Genoa come into all this?

___________________________________________

Relazioni internazionali, 7 Settembre 1940 - A. XVII, page 1681

"... l'ampliamento degli implanti de Livorno della Società anonima Spica [sic] per la produzione di pompe de iniezione per motori Diesel..."

I'm guessing that SPICA had a subsidiary factory or supplier in Genova at some point. The company was based in Livorno after 1938, which is both in Tuscany and just down the coast from Genova.

Spica (Cassani & Associates Pump Injection Company) was established in 1936 in Milan to produce injection pumps for diesel engines. In 1938, Count Ciano bought the company to support Mussolini's anticipated war effort and moved it to Livorno. In 1941, the Fascist government's Institute for Industrial Reconstruction nationalized the company and placed it under the control of Alfa Romeo.

After the war, SPICA continued as an Alfa subsidiary, making automobile parts such as water and oil pumps, spark plugs, steering components, and mechanical fuel injection systems for diesel and gasoline engines. SPICA gasoline fuel injection was used mainly by Alfa's competition department until the late 1960s, when SPICA injection helped Alfa pass US emissions standards. In 1988 SPICA was absorbed into FIAT, along with Alfa, and soon sold off and closed.

I still regret failing to convince a boss of mine to NOT replace the SPICA injection on a beautiful, red Alfa GTV 2000 with Weber carburetors. He'd bought the car cheap from an ignorant used car dealer, and it ran perfectly. Like lots of US owners at the time, he thought he'd get more power by replacing "emissions stuff". He spent a lot of money, but the car never ran right.

See:

https://news.museofratellicozzi.com/spica/

https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/it/SPICA/

 

[F2D_combat]

Planned version of G.55 (and G.56) with 4 wing guns. This predisposition was maintained on postwar G.59

 

[Dball]

Hi!
Fiat G.56.

Fiat G.56 as a Tier IV German Premium

In early 1942, Regia Aeronautica passed orders to speed up the work on the final design prototypes and create promising new models of combat aircraft. This event resulted in expanded cooperation with German companies who agreed to provide technical support to Italy and, in particular, documentati...

forum.warthunder.com

"•General characteristics ◦Crew: 1
◦Length: 31 ft 4 3/8 in (9.56 m)
◦Wingspan: 38 ft 10 17/32 in (11.85 m)
◦Height: 10 ft 3 15/64 in (3.13 m)
◦Wing area: 227.12 ft² (21.1 m²)
◦Empty weight: 6,393 lb (2,900 kg)
◦Normal takeoff weight: 8,497 lb (3,854 kg)
◦Powerplant: 1 × Daimler-Benz DB 603A (1,750 hp)

•Performance ◦Takeoff power rating (1943): 1489 hp @ 1.21 ata (2500 rpm and 3900 kg TO weight)
◦Maximum speed: At sea level: 341.8 mph (550 km/h)
At 1000 m: 360.4 mph (580 km/h)
At 4000 m: 397.7 mph (640 km/h)
At 7000 m: 425.6 mph (685 km/h)

◦Range: 795 mi (1,280 km)
◦Service ceiling: 43,963 ft (13,400 m)
◦Time to altitude: 1000 m: 48 seconds
2000 m: 1 minute 38 seconds
4000 m: 3 minutes 33 seconds
5700 m: 5 minutes
6000 m: 5 minute 27 seconds
7000 m: 7 min 30 seconds


•Armament ◦Guns: 1 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon mounted through engine (250 rounds)
2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon mounted in wings (200 rpg)"

http://allaircraftsimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17892

Fiat G.56
A G.55 with a more powerful DB 603 engine. Proved to be far superior to the Bf 109K and Fw 190D, but was not allowed for service by the Germans. Their own stupidity that helped us win...

Also these statistics you list ARE ACTUALLY MARKEDLY INFERIOR TO THE Bf109K6 and Ta152 series (Fw190D series was an interm solution/ stopgap)

 

[contaxrts]

Hi!
Fiat G.56.

Fiat G.56 as a Tier IV German Premium

In early 1942, Regia Aeronautica passed orders to speed up the work on the final design prototypes and create promising new models of combat aircraft. This event resulted in expanded cooperation with German companies who agreed to provide technical support to Italy and, in particular, documentati...

forum.warthunder.com

"•General characteristics ◦Crew: 1
◦Length: 31 ft 4 3/8 in (9.56 m)
◦Wingspan: 38 ft 10 17/32 in (11.85 m)
◦Height: 10 ft 3 15/64 in (3.13 m)
◦Wing area: 227.12 ft² (21.1 m²)
◦Empty weight: 6,393 lb (2,900 kg)
◦Normal takeoff weight: 8,497 lb (3,854 kg)
◦Powerplant: 1 × Daimler-Benz DB 603A (1,750 hp)

•Performance ◦Takeoff power rating (1943): 1489 hp @ 1.21 ata (2500 rpm and 3900 kg TO weight)
◦Maximum speed: At sea level: 341.8 mph (550 km/h)
At 1000 m: 360.4 mph (580 km/h)
At 4000 m: 397.7 mph (640 km/h)
At 7000 m: 425.6 mph (685 km/h)

◦Range: 795 mi (1,280 km)
◦Service ceiling: 43,963 ft (13,400 m)
◦Time to altitude: 1000 m: 48 seconds
2000 m: 1 minute 38 seconds
4000 m: 3 minutes 33 seconds
5700 m: 5 minutes
6000 m: 5 minute 27 seconds
7000 m: 7 min 30 seconds


•Armament ◦Guns: 1 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon mounted through engine (250 rounds)
2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon mounted in wings (200 rpg)"

http://allaircraftsimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17892

Fiat G.56
A G.55 with a more powerful DB 603 engine. Proved to be far superior to the Bf 109K and Fw 190D, but was not allowed for service by the Germans. Their own stupidity that helped us win...

Also these statistics you list ARE ACTUALLY MARKEDLY INFERIOR TO THE Bf109K6 and Ta152 series (Fw190D series was an interm solution/ stopgap)

G.56 performances using a standard DB603A without MW50 nor GM-1... and considering wing load her better, respect Me109 and FW190, comes above 7000 m... Ta152 is an era after...

 

[hesham]

Hi,

does anyone hear about Baleari fighter ?.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi,

does anyone hear about Baleari fighter ?.

During the Spanish Civil War some Fiat CR.32 fighters were based in the Balearic Islands.

Archivo:Fiat C.R.32-Baleari.jpg - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I can't ID this Italian biplane Fighter.maybe a Project ?.

. Italiano: Progetto motore aeronautico b8/110 . 10 July 2012. Unknown 17 Cassani motore b8 Stock Photo - Alamy

Download this stock image: . Italiano: Progetto motore aeronautico b8/110 . 10 July 2012. Unknown 17 Cassani motore b8 - P2M5A4 from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.

www.alamy.com

Now,can we consider this fighter was from Cassani creation himself ?.

 

[Apophenia]

Now,can we consider this fighter was from Cassani creation himself ?.

I don't think it is safe to make that assumption.

First, we don't know exactly who "himself" is. Does 'Cassini' refers to the firm Società anonima Officine Italiane Cassani or to one of its erstwhile owners - Francesco or Eugenio Cassani.

Second, this Società anonima Officine Italiane Cassani was not associated with airframe design. Instead, its primarily interest was in diesel engines (albeit later focused on fuel pumps) and agricultural vehicles.

Third, this 'Caccia' may simply be the invention of the artist who created these patent drawings for the Cassini B8/110 diesel engine. It would, therefore, simply be illustrative of potential engine applications. And let's face it, diesel-powered fighters are the proverbial hen's teeth!

 

[hesham]

I beni storico-aeronautici nel contesto del patrimonio culturale

Thank you sister Apophenia.

The problem is I can't find it in my files ?.

 

[VictorXL188]

Checking with my Italian brother in law the text on the patent drawing, as Apophenia correctly said, it does indeed say that this is an illustrative example of fitting the B.8/110 to a fighter. As a aside, I took up the search for more info and found this illustration of the B.8/110 aeronautical engine on http://www.archiviostoricosamedeutz.com/. From what I can see Cassani was a designer for the SPICA concern and was looking at various applications for diesel engines including tractor propulsion so this aero engine seemed to be a big departure!

 

[ZacYates]

The Aerei Nella Storia artist obviously thought that spare P-51 cowlings would be available to Macchi

My guess is that the nose of the proposed C.208 would have looked rather more like that of the Fiat G.59.

At least this version is easier to do for modellers like myself!

 

[Apophenia]

At least this version is easier to do for modellers like myself!

-- https://www.hyperscale.com/2012/reviews/accessories/g59conversion32previewbg_1.htm

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Re.2005 SF – Proposed version equipped with an extra jet engine, none built.
Re.2005 wooden version – Proposed version to be built using wood, only limited progress made.
Twin fuselage Re.2005 – Paper project only.
Re.2005 carrier version – Proposed version to be used on the Aquila aircraft carrier, no prototype was ever built.
Re.2004 – Experimental fighter project equipped with the Isotta Fraschini Zeta 1.250 hp engine, possibly only a mock-up built.
Re.2006 – Proposed fighter plane powered with Daimler Benz DB 603 and to be built using Re.2005 components, only one incomplete model built.

Re.2005 “Sagittario”

Kingdom of Italy (1941) Fighter Aircraft – 32 ~ 48 Built The Re.2005 was one of the better and more modern Italian WWII fighter designs. It was developed by Reggiane in 1941. Due to the lack of DB.…

plane-encyclopedia.com

 

[hesham]

What was this ?,

https://www.cmpr.it/MN%20-%20Manuale%20MC%20205%20V/Manuale%20Istruzioni%20Macchi%20C205V%201944_Pagina_233.jpg

 

[Michel Van]

i not sure, but it look like some kind turbocharger for Macchi Aircaft

 

[Apophenia]

What was this ?,

What was what? Could you clarify your question?

The drawing title reads: Tavola N. 32 Pesi e Quote d'ingombro so, 'Table No. 32 - Weights and overall dimensions' referring to the Macchi C.205V Veltro.

The three groupings of drawings are for:

- 1) Cofanature (I serie) ... Cowling (I series);

- 2) Fusoliera complete di installazioni ... Fuselage complete with installations;

- 3) Elica con Ogiva ... Propeller with nosecone

So, again, what exactly are you asking for?

 

[hesham]

Yes my dear,then we can put it in a proper topic,I was just confuse
with N.32 !.