Italian fighter projects

[Andrewjs2007]

Dear All

In recent discussion re. the Italian bomber projects, Hesham mentioned two requirements for fighter aircraft -

1) single seat fighter:Macchi MC-300,Fiat G-58, Piaggio P-125,Reggiane Re-2005.

2) twin engined fighter reconnaissance:Fiat CR-25,Romeo Ro-53 ,Caproni Ca-150;Ca-160;Ca-401 and Breda Ba-94

Now thanks to other members we know about the G.58 and the Re-2005, but does anyone have information and drawings/plans of these other un-built projects?

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Skybolt]

Actually, the first competition...never was. There were successive spot requests from Regia Aeronautica to individual companies and some unsolicited proposal from individual companies regarding twin boom fighters, both original and derivative. Time span is from mid-1941 to first half of 1943. As for the MC-300, it never existed. The proposed (on exploratory request fro RA) coupled-fuselage derivative of MC-205 didn't even receive a numeral. An MC-301 did exist, but was earlier, and part of the Caccia Combattimento competition of 1938-39. The Piaggio P-125 is another entry in the Caccia Combattimento and the Bombardiere Normale competitions (two designs very similar); it was designed by Capt. Santangelo of the Genio Aeronautico (DSSE). The bomber version was outsourced to Piaggio for prototype production but the company did her best to NOT do it (succeeding...). So, the P.125 wasn't even a fighter strictu sensu. In the end, the only twin boom fighters built issuing from the above mentioned spot requests were SM-91 and SM-92, the latter NOT a derivative of the former. I'll illustrate the complex histories of those (and more) in my forthcoming book for Giorgio Apostolo Editore. Consider this as an official announcemnet. Publication date: March 2009.

 

[airman]

Surely Reggiane 2005 and Fiat Cr.25 was built ! ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggiane_2005
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_CR.25
http://www.aerei-italiani.net/SchedeT/aereore2005.html

 

[hesham]

My dear Skybolt,

for the Macchi MC-300 and the competition,please see;
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.samoloty.ow.pl%2Fstr395.htm&hl=ar&ie=UTF-8&sl=pl&tl=en

 

[Skybolt]

The built Re.2005 was the regular one. The Re.2005 hinted is the twin-fuselage Re-2005 (for want of a name)....
Cr-25, sure, but I didn't talked about that competition.
And, sorry Hesham but that competition is pure fantasy. For one, the original SM-91 was CANCELLED in July 1941, and resurrected in late 1942 as a zerstorer version of the SM-88. The Corsaro is much later, late 1942-early 1943 and competed not with the cited projects but with another Caproni, and perhaps with a MArchetti project (SM-94, not the SM-94 of 1937, wich was a civilian airliner).
See here for the SM-91 story http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2737.msg22100.html#msg22100
And here for the Corsaro's (plus the Ca-184) one:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2411.msg20201.html#msg20201
This forum has really a lot of info already published. Please use the search facility, is one of the proud point of the Mighty Overscan
BTW, I know very well the source of the Polish guy.. and I prefer not cite it here for love of my fatherland... it is a person who disseminated a lot of personal speculations like documented truth.
Uh, forgot: it is probable that the night-fighter line of the late 1943 Regia Aeronautica would have comprised the Sm-91 and the often unmentioned BZ-303, another evolution of the Can Z-1018. The BZ-303 would have been called Leone III. Finally, the twin-fuselage early 1942 competition is a mere speculation, born from the fact that the SM-92, the G-58 and the Re-2005bifusoliera seem to share the same requirement. No one (me included) has ever discovered an actual piece of paper describing, or even hinting at an official requirement.

 

[archipeppe]

(...) and the often unmentioned BZ-303, another evolution of the Can Z-1018. The BZ-303 would have been called Leone III.

I've read somewhere, but I don't rember where or when, that the Cant Z-1018 Nightfighter (the nomclature BZ-303 is something new to me) was to be equipped with an Italian radar (Grifo??), please Skybolt can you confirm this particular, or it was only a flight of fantasy??

It is true that RA was equipped with a small number of Dornier and Messerchmitt nightfighters but any of them had radar?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Skybolt]

AFAIK no "caccia scientifica" plane under the Regia ever used an airborne radiolocalizer n combat. I know that someone wrote a lot on this, with numerous flights of fancy. I'll check this night, though. I can confirm that the BZ-303 was to have a radiolocalizer onboard. The idea was probably to use two types of aircraft, one with radar and one w/o, vectored by terrestrial radars (the SM-91).
The CANT Z-1018 was to be a medium fast bomber produced by CANT, Breda and someone else (Anello Leone). When Zappata transferred to Breda, all evolution of the 1018 per se stopped. The BZ-301 was an high-altitude derivative, and the BZ-303 a night fighter.

 

[lark]

This is fascinating information Sky...
Any articles (or a book) about in the planning phase ;D

 

[Skybolt]

Yes Paul, I'll insert some "scenario" info in the SM-91,92,93 book planned for March 2009 release.

 

[Skybolt]

Confirmed, no combat missions with radar onboard for Italian night fighters. In late spring 1943 Italy obtained a dozen of FuG 202 Lichtenstein BC. Two were destined to 1018s. The installation of the antennas was completed on July 8 1943. In parallel, there were developments at DSSE in Guidonia on national radars. First was the Argo, an experimental long distance localizer. From this derived the "Arghetto" (AKA "Vespa"), that was to be a naval search airborne radar (tested on an SM-79 and a 1018). The final development was "Lepre", a reduced-size "Vespa", targeted to night fighters. Had the war continued post-september 1943, this would have been standard equipment for night fighters.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


here is the Caproni Ca.153 and Ca.365 fighter projects.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


the Macchi MC.206 fighter project.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


does anyone hear about Breda Ba.206 and Ambrosini SAI-402 fighter projects ?,
the Breda Ba.206 was developed from Ba.204 and the SAI-402 was lightweight
fighter as I know.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


Breda Ba.206 was single seat twin boom fighter with pusher engine.


http://www.vignaud.org/Gestion_BD/Recherche.php

 

[lark]

Link incomplete ?

 

[hesham]

Link incomplete ?

My dear Lark,


here is exactly the link;


http://www.vignaud.org/Gestion_BD/ExecRecherche.php?page=7&pays=Italie&marque=Tous&appellation=Tous&ref=Tous&nom=Tous&util=&type=&anpremvol=Tous&nouv=%20ORDER%20BY%20marque,%20ref2

 

[patvig]

Link incomplete ?

My dear Lark,


here is exactly the link;


http://www.vignaud.org/Gestion_BD/ExecRecherche.php?page=7&pays=Italie&marque=Tous&appellation=Tous&ref=Tous&nom=Tous&util=&type=&anpremvol=Tous&nouv=%20ORDER%20BY%20marque,%20ref2

Yes, but my reference was http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18731.0! I have no more information.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


the Breda Ba.206 was a fighter/trainer and capable to be ground
attack aircraft project,developed with Ba.204 to the late of 1930s
competition.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


does anyone hear about Breda Ba.207 Project ?.

 

[hesham]

From Aerofan 1/1980,



here is the Breda Ba.204,which was a multi mission aircraft,fighter,fighter-trainer and
turret fighter

 

[hesham]

Hi,


here is some drawings to Macchi fighters aircraft and projects,the weird thing is C.208,
I never heard about it before,but for C.209,I don't know if they meant this or not;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7992.msg70317.html#msg70317


Aerei+Nella+Storia

 

[hesham]

here is some drawings to Macchi fighters aircraft and projects,the weird thing is C.208,
I never heard about it before,but for C.209,I don't know if they meant this or not;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7992.msg70317.html#msg70317

Aerei+Nella+Storia

Hi,


here is an info about C.209,what about C.208 ?.

 

[Nico]

My Dear Hesham,
i'm not familiar to the way of linking this post to another in the same board, but if you search C.208 you can find a sequel of post about it.
The C.208 is sometime referred as the Agusta AC.208 as was designed from Mario Castoldi, already retired from Aeronautica Macchi, for Agusta. The project was a primary trainer for one of the first postwar requirements of Aeronautica Militare, roughly in the same class of the Swiss Pilatus P.2. Later on, for an iteration of the same theme, the aircraft was redesigned by Eng. Filippo Zappata as the Agusta AZ.4.
As far as I know nor the C.208 neither the AZ.4 were built
Nico

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Nico,


and I know Agusta-Castoldi AC.208,but here the C.208 was a project for a fighter,intended during the WW2,
also the C.209 was a jet aircraft or not (in the article) ?.

 

[Nico]

Hi Hesham,
now I understand. In fact, in late seventies there were rumours about a post-war C.208 and C.209 designer by Castoldi as adviser for Macchi. If I'm right was late journalist Italo de'Marchi that published those information that I reported on later occasions.
In fact no proof of those project surfaced: the C.208 was described as a C.202/205 with Merlin engine, for competition with FIAT G.59. In reality an engine mount for a Packard Merlin on the fuselage of a 202/205 was developed by Macchi but when the engineering department was already directed by Ermanno Bazzocchi.
About a C.209 intended as a Macchi proposal for a first generation jet fighter, probably is a mere invention. Castoldi lacks any experience on jet propulsion and, moreover, the design office was already directed by Bazzocchi.
Nico

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Nico for your explanations,


and for C.209,all thing about it here;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7992.msg70317.html#msg70317

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
Larger images and Macchi development.

http://alternathistory.com/antonio-faltsoni-poslednie-istrebiteli-makki

"Macchi c. 207 powered by DB. 603 HP 1510 power at an altitude of 5700 m and 2500 RPM.
Equipped with Wing 21 m ². Armament-4 wing-mounted 20 mm cannon.
Dimension
Weight ; The total weight of the load kg : 4340, Empty aircraft weight kg : 3292
Lifting capacity kg : 1048, The composition of the payload Parachute pilot kg : 85, 4 guns CAL. 20 mm kg : 169,
250 rounds per barrel (total 1000) kg : 218, Radio system kg : 56, Collimator, oxygen inhaler kg : 13, Gasoline (total) kg : 470, Oil kg : 37, Total kg : 1048, Fuel tanks capacity : Front fûzelâžnyj l : 405 2 wing tank only l : 160, Tail fûzelâžnyj l : 80
, Total l : 645,
Expected characteristics.
Maximum speed at altitude-700 km/h.
Characteristics of the engine DB. 603
Length mm : 2610, Width mm : 1167, Height mm : 830, Motor shaft rotational speed RPM : 2500
Rotational speed of screw RPM : 1295
Power emergency at an altitude of 2750 m 5700 rpm and inlet pressure 1.40 kg/cm ² makes 1620 HP
Nominal power at an altitude of 5700 m, 2500 rpm and inlet pressure 1.30 kg/cm ² is 1510 HP
Power take-off, 2700 rpm and inlet pressure 1.30 kg/cm ² is 1750 HP

C. 205V C. 205V C. 205N C. 205N C. 206 C. 207 C. 202
1 ' serie 3 ' serie M.m. 499 M.m. 500
Wingspan m 10.58 10.58 11.25 11.25 12.142 12.142 10.58
Length m 8.85 8.85 9.549 9.549 9.335 9.735 8.85
Height in the parking lot m 3.036 3,075 3.25 3.25 3.095 3.25 3,075
Average wing chord m 1.59 1.59 1.69 1.69 1.795 1.795 1.59
Wing area m ² 16.8 16.8 19 19 21 21 16.8
Screw diameter m 3.050 3.050 3.050 3.050 3.050 3.150 3.050
Empty aircraft weight kg 2.568 2,518 2,699 2.759 2.578 3.292 2,284
The total weight of the kg 3.268 3.408 3.621 3.794 3.650 4.340 2.937
Wing loading kg/m ² 194.5 202.8 190.6 199.7 173.8 206.6 174.8
Engine power (the standards.) HP 1250 1250 1250 1250 1250 1510 1000
Specific load on the power kg/HP 2.61 2.73 2.89 3.03 2.92 2.87 2.94
Power per unit area PS/m ² 74.4 74.4 65.79 65.79 59.52 71.9 59.52"

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emLEjggvVLk

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
Fiat G.56.

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/222740-fiat-g56-as-a-tier-iv-german-premium/

"•General characteristics ◦Crew: 1
◦Length: 31 ft 4 3/8 in (9.56 m)
◦Wingspan: 38 ft 10 17/32 in (11.85 m)
◦Height: 10 ft 3 15/64 in (3.13 m)
◦Wing area: 227.12 ft² (21.1 m²)
◦Empty weight: 6,393 lb (2,900 kg)
◦Normal takeoff weight: 8,497 lb (3,854 kg)
◦Powerplant: 1 × Daimler-Benz DB 603A (1,750 hp)

•Performance ◦Takeoff power rating (1943): 1489 hp @ 1.21 ata (2500 rpm and 3900 kg TO weight)
◦Maximum speed: At sea level: 341.8 mph (550 km/h)
At 1000 m: 360.4 mph (580 km/h)
At 4000 m: 397.7 mph (640 km/h)
At 7000 m: 425.6 mph (685 km/h)

◦Range: 795 mi (1,280 km)
◦Service ceiling: 43,963 ft (13,400 m)
◦Time to altitude: 1000 m: 48 seconds
2000 m: 1 minute 38 seconds
4000 m: 3 minutes 33 seconds
5700 m: 5 minutes
6000 m: 5 minute 27 seconds
7000 m: 7 min 30 seconds


•Armament ◦Guns: 1 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon mounted through engine (250 rounds)
2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon mounted in wings (200 rpg)"

http://allaircraftsimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17892
Fiat G.56
A G.55 with a more powerful DB 603 engine. Proved to be far superior to the Bf 109K and Fw 190D, but was not allowed for service by the Germans. Their own stupidity that helped us win...

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Reggiane fighters. This drawing shows four guns at the nose, but technical data shows two guns. ???
http://www.reggiane.info/lang1/index.html

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Reggiane Re.2005 prototype and production model.

http://pro-samolet.ru/aircraft-ww2-italy/fighters/1005-fighter-reggiane-re2005-sagittario?device=desktop

Length ; Re.2004 : 8.35m, Re.2005 : 8.73m, Re.2006 : 8.54m
Re.2004 engine : Isotta-Fraschini Zeta R.C.24/60 X-24 liquid-cooled engine, 1,250 hp
Re.2005 engine : Fiat R.A.1050 RC.58"Tifone" inverted V12 liquid-cooled engine(DB605), 1,350hp
Re.2006 engine : Daimler-Benz DB 603A inverted V12 liquid-cooled engine, 1,750 hp

 

[iverson]

I've attached a somewhat speculative drawing of an Re.2005 powered by Reggiane's own Re.103 engine, a 40-liter, inverted W-18 engine rated at 1750 hp and a less speculative drawing of the engine itself.

See also https://oldmachinepress.com/2015/08/31/reggiane-re-101-to-re-105-aircraft-engines/ and https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggiane_RE_103.

 

[iverson]

Hi!
Fiat G.56.

Here is my drawing of the G.55 in its initially planned form, powered by Fiat's 1250hp AS.38 RC.15-40 inverted, 90-degree V-16 engine.

 

[blackkite]

Interesting. Thanks a lot.

 

[Boogey]

I don't want to make a new topic to solve my long time problem with the designation of FIAT CR.25, it concerns Italian fighter projects in the end.
Question is why the FIAT CR.25 designed in 1937 has lower number than FIAT CR.30 which designing begun in 1930 ;
both machines were designed by Celestino Rosatelli, though.
Is it possible that originally designation of the aircraft should be FIAT BR.25 as it was intention to create a high-speed light bomber
and reconnaissance machine at the start, with the bomb-aimer place in the nose and full bombardment outfit ?

 

[lucamax]

Dear friends,
here I share a pic about a wooden model of Caproni Ca.401 with single rudder.
Hope you'll enjoy!
Source: Gente dell'Aria, Vol. 3, Giorgio Evangelisti, Olimpia Editore.
Best regards.
--
Luca

 

[hesham]

Nice find my dear Lucamax,just seen,

here is a mock-up to Piaggio P.125 cockpit.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

here is Ca.175 Project.

 

[hesham]

From Aerei Nella Storia 60,

here is a Caproni Ca.175,and what was Caproni Bergamo Ostro II ?.

 

[ceccherini]

what was Caproni Bergamo Ostro II ?.

The text says it's a figther studied by Cesare Pallavicino between 1935 and 1937. On a side note, ironically Pallavicino was the designer of the Lambretta scooter, the main rival of the Vespa produced by the rival aviation firm Piaggio.