Issue with Political comment

[Michel Van]

I notice a increase of Political discussion in this Forum
Were the moderations had to intervene

And it will happen more and more in future
So what to do ?

Members will made Political comment, you can't prevented.
What about create new forum section call The Trashcan ?
Were the Members can post there Political comment...

...Just a proposal

 

[Antonio]

Political discussion is no doubt one of the main threats to the forum's health. And we have discussed this before.
Like other main threats, such as thread disorganisation or off-topic posts, that exceeds both our capacity for moderation and the desire to collaborate on the part of the members.

The Bar section was added for such purposes. Also, the Alternative History section has many threads opened from political aspects.
Opening a dedicated sub section for those who want to give a greater relevance to politics seems to go too far from the forum's foundational target which was a place for "unbuilt technology" lovers.
Politics influencing the fate of technology is an interesting subject, sure, but I'm not here for a general politics focused discussion.

That's my vision

 

[Justo Miranda]

I notice a increase of Political discussion in this Forum
Were the moderations had to intervene

And it will happen more and more in future
So what to do ?

Members will made Political comment, you can't prevented.
What about create new forum section call The Trashcan ?
Were the Members can post there Political comment...

...Just a proposal

We live in interesting historical times where politics permeates everything like an oil stain that advances on paper. I have tried to separate politics from my interventions in the forum, without success. Mea Culpa.

I don't think it's possible to do it... Wasn't its political decisions that turned all the interesting things we are dealing with here into secret projects?

The thankless task of the moderators manages to keep the stage reasonably clean, but the issue reappears again and again on a recurring basis, almost always fortuitously as a natural part of the debate. Maybe it's something inherent to the human condition, but I don't know how to avoid it... ¿Can radiation or hydrogen be confined?

https://en.vijesti.me/fun/interesting/210319/belgium-hairdressers-forbidden-to-talk-about-politics-and-religion

 

[Michel Van]

The Bar section was added for such purposes. Also, the Alternative History section has many threads opened from political aspects.

yes, but it get used for other purpose like Sci-fi cover or Robot news...
barely for Politik
and with intense they sometimes discuss Politic here
look more we need Fight Pit for them !

 

[Justo Miranda]

yes, but it get used for other purpose like Sci-fi cover or Robot news...
barely for Politik
and with intense they sometimes discuss Politic here
look more we need Fight Pit for them !

If it were just about drinking, people would stay at home, in every culture there is a place to consume alcohol, coffee or tea and gossip socially, arrange business, arrange marriages or complain about the boss.

Geisha houses, caravanserais, bars, poetry or reading clubs... even in Iran upper-class young people gather in licensed establishments to practice some kind of non-verbal communication... who could prevent it?

 

[Michel Van]

who could prevent it?

That why i made proposal of The Trashcan
So they can fight their political argument down there.

Other Forum have more harsh methods like Alternatehistory.com
next Moderators, who Kicks (one week to Month) with out right to post on Forum to lifelong banned from Forum.
the admin goes even so far as to scann there IP address, to prevent there return under other name.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Discussion of politics of the past is somewhat frought, but has been largely navigable in the post. You may have your opinions about it, but it doesn't affect your core identity too much for most people.

Discussion of politics of today is too emotionally charged. Either Trump is the best thing ever or the Devil incarnate and this colours your reactions.

That doesn't mean you can't post about what is happening with current programs. You can say that the US Government is funding Air Force program X, cancelling Navy program Y, concentrating on Threat Z not Threat R, without calling the politicians involved in these decisions corrupt or evil or the saviour incarnate.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

That why i made proposal of The Trashcan
So they can fight their political argument down there.

They can also carry out their political arguments on Reddit, Facebook, email, X, etc.

If you don't want birds in the garden, don't install a bird feeder.

 

[southwestforests]

Well, at least the political intensity and emotionality gives evidence that people Do Care about these projects and concepts.
And it is good that so many do indeed care.
The thing now is to figure out how to express one's caring at a lower heat setting.

 

[Justo Miranda]

That why i made proposal of The Trashcan
So they can fight their political argument down there.

Other Forum have more harsh methods like Alternatehistory.com
next Moderators, who Kicks (one week to Month) with out right to post on Forum to lifelong banned from Forum.
the admin goes even so far as to scann there IP address, to prevent there return under other name.

That is true, but this bird feeder is the best for many of us, because of the wealth of information, the possibilities of accessing knowledge impossible to find elsewhere and especially because of the great tolerance and infinite patience shown by the authorities of the forum towards our verbal excesses. But nothing is eternal and if the stability of our relationships suffers beyond a certain level, surely some of the most undisciplined members of the forum will suffer ominous penalties of banishment or even worse, such as being completely cut off from the gestalt organism.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Well, at least the political intensity and emotionality gives evidence that people Do Care about these projects and concepts.
And it is good that so many do indeed care.
The thing now is to figure out how to express one's caring at a lower heat setting.

If anyone wishes to cool their vehement emotions, I can give you the phone number of a nurse I met some time ago.

 

[Antonio]

The idea is to have a "fighting arena"?

1. This could be find elsewhere. No need to have it here.
2. We're going to end quarrying for sure
3. Could you give an example of the political subjects you would like to discuss?

 

[martinbayer]

I notice a increase of Political discussion in this Forum
Were the moderations had to intervene

And it will happen more and more in future
So what to do ?

Members will made Political comment, you can't prevented.
What about create new forum section call The Trashcan ?
Were the Members can post there Political comment...

...Just a proposal

So, just to clarify, my dear Michel, in your view, any and all political (adjacent) comments in this forum are "trash"??? I extremely, *vehemently* disagree. This is a forum quite literally *teeming* with highly educated critical, analytical minds, and in my lifelong experience with political sides and parties, denigrating the contributions of those erudite minds to a virtual "trashcan" is inevitably the mindset of exactly one, and only one, side of the political spectrum. I know the tactics of your side's political mindset, and I am not afraid to call you out on it, my dear, kind sir...

 

[Michel Van]

my dear Michel, in your view, any and all political (adjacent) comments in this forum are "trash"???

A i experience Belgium and since then despise politics
B i have dark sense of Humor

 

[Hood]

There is a difference between discussing past politics and current politics.
Some members just can't seem to help themselves to derail threads with off-topic rants about political and social issues that don't affect the subject at hand.

As Paul says, just report the facts. This is technical forum.
There is a good saying in the UK "my politics is between my conscience and the ballot box". Too many people these days feel inclined to air their viewpoints and opinions every five seconds.

 

[lancer21]

By far the worst problem is at least couple of moderators here trying to shove their political views onto others and their moderating actions being influenced by said political views. So you can't expect them to do their job with impartiality as they should. Just because they volunteered doesn't mean that is acceptable (this include actions like abusing their moderating powers and downright insulting members who happen not to hold their political views).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Message me with the names of who you are accusing, then. Moderators have a range of viewpoints and are from multiple countries, though with a general bias to Western countries.

 

[Hanse]

If anyone wishes to cool their vehement emotions, I can give you the phone number of a nurse I met some time ago.

"It's "ma'am"".

 

[martinbayer]

Too many people these days feel inclined to air their viewpoints and opinions every five seconds.

I actually *highly* welcome to know the viewpoints and opinions of people I interact with up front, both in real life and online. Once again though, in my personal life experience, one side seems much more willing to wear their heart on their sleeve than the other - it's almost like those folks on the other side feel like they have something to hide...

 

[Yellow Palace]

Once again though, in my personal life experience, one side seems much more willing to wear their heart on their sleeve than the other - it's almost like those folks on the other side feel like they have something to hide...

What's fun is that that almost universally applies - only which 'side' feels free to express its thoughts varies by venue.

While this is ostensibly a technical forum, the nature of discussing military hardware means that political elements are unavoidable. The infamous line about TSR.2 getting the political dimension wrong comes to mind. Some heat might be taken out of such discussions by a blanket ban on discussing projects more recently than X years, for some suitable value of X - but of course this would rule out discussing active projects. Which, arguably, might be the point.

 

[martinbayer]

By far the worst problem is at least couple of moderators here trying to shove their political views onto others and their moderating actions being influenced by said political views. So you can't expect them to do their job with impartiality as they should. Just because they volunteered doesn't mean that is acceptable (this include actions like abusing their moderating powers and downright insulting members who happen not to hold their political views).

It's an international/global open online forum with free (unpaid) access run by volunteers. If you don't like it, you don't have to visit, let alone post, but don't expect everyone to kowtow to your views and coddle your fragile(?) mind(set). But please, do feel free to open up your very own internet forum - I'll gladly stop by...

 

[Jemiba]

The problem, to my opinion, aren‘t really politics in particular. Politics, mostly recent politics, just tend to amplify a problem, that we see in some other themes, too, they actually are pure opinion. And though I cannot say precisely when it started, but the will to tolerate opinions, that are different to the own one, is diminishing at an alarming pace. Not only here, but generally, and from what I see, in most societies worldwide…
Today Voltaire would be just regarded as a naive goon with his well known quotation „Though you disagree with me, I will defend your right to do so to the death“.
Nowadays slogan is „Who don’t agree with me, cannot think logically, or rather, cannot think at all !“. The own opinion is often regarded as sacrosanct, and politics, at least in a way, are pure opinion.
Many, too many people have forgotten, or maybe never learned to accept other opinions, and cannot bear such an offense, as they obviously regard it. And the problem probably is getting worse, because in the past, you often only had the crackerbarrel to launch to the public, what you regarded as the ultimate truth. Now you post it on the internet, and find not only the handful of folks, that see it that way, too, but you‘ll certainly find thousands of „supporters“, and so you are obviously right, aren‘t you ? Well, there’s the old say about flies and shit, remember ?
As said before, here we not only have this problem with politics. For example, the reasons, that the F-35 threads were regularly locked and constantly needed to be cleaned up, were just the same. Quarreling in a way, that reminded me to the Spanish inquisition, about the pros and cons of an aircraft, that still yet, had more or less no opportunities to show it‘s qualities at all …. just opinions and much degraded ability to stand objections.
Don‘t know about the age pattern here, perhaps we can blame our parents ? At least the younger ones, born around and after the 90s perhaps can defend themselves by quoting to be victims of helicopter-parents, who unintentionally made them believe, that they are the hub of the world, the one-and-only, the solution to every problem…. Sorry for the older ones amongst us, we only can refer to our senile stubborness ….

Of course, all I wrote here is just my opinion !

 

[Justo Miranda]

The problem, to my opinion, aren‘t really politics in particular. Politics, mostly recent politics, just tend to amplify a problem, that we see in some other themes, too, they actually are pure opinion. And though I cannot say precisely when it started, but the will to tolerate opinions, that are different to the own one, is diminishing at an alarming pace. Not only here, but generally, and from what I see, in most societies worldwide…
Today Voltaire would be just regarded as a naive goon with his well known quotation „Though you disagree with me, I will defend your right to do so to the death“.
Nowadays slogan is „Who don’t agree with me, cannot think logically, or rather, cannot think at all !“. The own opinion is often regarded as sacrosanct, and politics, at least in a way, are pure opinion.
Many, too many people have forgotten, or maybe never learned to accept other opinions, and cannot bear such an offense, as they obviously regard it. And the problem probably is getting worse, because in the past, you often only had the crackerbarrel to launch to the public, what you regarded as the ultimate truth. Now you post it on the internet, and find not only the handful of folks, that see it that way, too, but you‘ll certainly find thousands of „supporters“, and so you are obviously right, aren‘t you ? Well, there’s the old say about flies and shit, remember ?
As said before, here we not only have this problem with politics. For example, the reasons, that the F-35 threads were regularly locked and constantly needed to be cleaned up, were just the same. Quarreling in a way, that reminded me to the Spanish inquisition, about the pros and cons of an aircraft, that still yet, had more or less no opportunities to show it‘s qualities at all …. just opinions and much degraded ability to stand objections.
Don‘t know about the age pattern here, perhaps we can blame our parents ? At least the younger ones, born around and after the 90s perhaps can defend themselves by quoting to be victims of helicopter-parents, who unintentionally made them believe, that they are the hub of the world, the one-and-only, the solution to every problem…. Sorry for the older ones amongst us, we only can refer to our senile stubborness ….

Of course, all I wrote here is just my opinion !

Antonio, Jens

I respect and share your opinions.

I believe that we Europeans should stop talking about politics before it becomes illegal. For me it is nothing new, I live in the country of the inquisition, I survived the brainwashing of the Franco regime and today I turn 73, but it is going to be hard for young people to live with a real tax burden of 55%.

 

[had]

What about create new forum section call The Trashcan ?
Were the Members can post there Political comment...

...Just a proposal

How will the proposed solution work?
Normally, this kind of discussions evolve out of the actual topic. Do you think the 2-3 people discussing politics are so self-conscious and interested to keep the thread spam free, that they stop a heated exchange and restart it in the trashcan? Sounds very artificial to me.

Even if possible, why shifting it in a separate thread named trashcan? Why not in a private “conversation”?

 

[Antonio]

I believe that we Europeans should stop talking about politics before it becomes illegal. For me it is nothing new, I live in the country of the inquisition, I survived the brainwashing of the Franco regime and today I turn 73, but it is going to be hard for young people to live with a real tax burden of 55%.

This thread started to see how we could have a dedicated section focused on politics and we end speaking about politics here.

And I also realise that, in an international forum, regional visions from everyone's World corner could lost their meaning across long distances. The same could apply across generations.

That's why my opinion is to keep broad/general political subjects outside the forum and stay technical and universal.

As above suggested by @had, a reasonable approach could be to PM other forum members and share their political concerns via email.

 

[quellish]

By far the worst problem is at least couple of moderators here trying to shove their political views onto others and their moderating actions being influenced by said political views. So you can't expect them to do their job with impartiality as they should. Just because they volunteered doesn't mean that is acceptable (this include actions like abusing their moderating powers and downright insulting members who happen not to hold their political views).

Generally the moderators step in when there is a complaint (i.e. a report), and their moderation focuses on the content the complaint was filed on. So what you may perceive as the political views of moderators being expressed through moderation action may in fact be the position of the person *making the complaint*, with the moderators taking action on that complaint.

Example:

Person X complains about post 1 and 2.
Moderator removes post 1 and 2.

Person Y thinks the moderator removed the posts because of the moderator's personal views, which is incorrect.

 

[Rhinocrates]

And I also realise that, in an international forum, regional visions from everyone's World corner could lost their meaning across long distances. The same could apply across generations.

That's why my opinion is to keep broad/general political subjects outside the forum and stay technical and universal.

I've spent years editing scientific papers by people for whom English is a second language and where precision of meaning is essential. I've probably lost a lot of hair wondering what someone really meant in their original language and what they need to say in mine, and then reconcile that with a journal's style and language requirements (yes, pronouns, among other things - tenses, active versus passive voice etc.).

Denotations of words vary according to use and connotations vary even more according to the user's. As George Bernard Shaw said, England and America are two countries separated by a common language.

Consider the different - and very strong - emotions attached to the word 'republican' in the USA, England, Ireland, and Australia. 'Liberal' means something very different to Adam Smith and AOC (the Australian Liberal party is so-called because it is influenced by Whig tradition and is economically right-of-centre, not socially progressivist).

Now compound the differences by factoring in different languages and local regimes. Someone in a country with close monitoring of its citizens is going to be more careful about what they say than someone in a more open democracy, putting them at a disadvantage. I read in the (possibly apocryphal) memoirs of Shostakovich, Testimony, of his experience when he was on a trip with other delegates to a peace conference in New York in 1949. Of course it was organised and tightly controlled by the Soviet government and riddled with MGB agents. One person there very aggressively questioned him about how he felt about criticism of him and bans of his work by Soviet authorities. History records that he gave carefully anodyne answers but his memoir also records his absolute fury at his questioner and his selfishness in putting on the stunt.

Here's a full account from an independent source: https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...stad/236fe89c6c4539e4cc841f1bb8babc3224d08731

There's far too much potential, without first agreeing on terms and parameters, for explicitly political debate to get out of hand and to be conducted in bad faith. I don't think that we can all be bothered to go through this framing process and stick to it and I don't think that there's a structural solution either. This is an online forum, not an Oxford debate. The current rule of moderators exercising discretion based on their understanding of context still seems to be the best - and workable - solution.

I'm grateful that this forum has remained as civil as it has.

 

[Jemiba]

......
As above suggested by @had, a reasonable approach could be to PM other forum members and share their political concerns via email.

Perhaps we should think along those lines again, and use featues of the forum software, that still yet probably are used very rarely:



Copying the reported post to a new PM, with the poster and those, who answered to as recipients isn't that much more work, nobody should be feeling offended anymore, because no post gets deleted, but only moved out of public view, and then the discussion can gon on absolutely undisturbed by biased mods,using their moderating powers ! My only question , how the mod/admin could get ot of the conversation then, as I usually wouldn't be interested to follow it any further ...

 

[Michel Van]

The PM system would ideal for this.
But how motivated the member to make the Politic discussions in PM instead of filling the Forum ?

 

[Arjen]

Because consistently making current political comments might get me a ban, so I had better watch my step. This forum is a treasure of information. I want to keep enjoying it, if possible contribute to it.

"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law" - Immanuel Kant

If I feel the need, I can exchange political views through PM. Alternatively, I can do my worst on another forum.

So yes, a ban for repeat offenders. As far as I am concerned, old politics are fair game. Which only leaves the question - how old? Tread carefully.

 

[martinbayer]

The problem, to my opinion, aren‘t really politics in particular. Politics, mostly recent politics, just tend to amplify a problem, that we see in some other themes, too, they actually are pure opinion. And though I cannot say precisely when it started, but the will to tolerate opinions, that are different to the own one, is diminishing at an alarming pace. Not only here, but generally, and from what I see, in most societies worldwide…
Today Voltaire would be just regarded as a naive goon with his well known quotation „Though you disagree with me, I will defend your right to do so to the death“.
Nowadays slogan is „Who don’t agree with me, cannot think logically, or rather, cannot think at all !“. The own opinion is often regarded as sacrosanct, and politics, at least in a way, are pure opinion.
Many, too many people have forgotten, or maybe never learned to accept other opinions, and cannot bear such an offense, as they obviously regard it. And the problem probably is getting worse, because in the past, you often only had the crackerbarrel to launch to the public, what you regarded as the ultimate truth. Now you post it on the internet, and find not only the handful of folks, that see it that way, too, but you‘ll certainly find thousands of „supporters“, and so you are obviously right, aren‘t you ? Well, there’s the old say about flies and shit, remember ?
As said before, here we not only have this problem with politics. For example, the reasons, that the F-35 threads were regularly locked and constantly needed to be cleaned up, were just the same. Quarreling in a way, that reminded me to the Spanish inquisition, about the pros and cons of an aircraft, that still yet, had more or less no opportunities to show it‘s qualities at all …. just opinions and much degraded ability to stand objections.
Don‘t know about the age pattern here, perhaps we can blame our parents ? At least the younger ones, born around and after the 90s perhaps can defend themselves by quoting to be victims of helicopter-parents, who unintentionally made them believe, that they are the hub of the world, the one-and-only, the solution to every problem…. Sorry for the older ones amongst us, we only can refer to our senile stubborness ….

Of course, all I wrote here is just my opinion !

Hello Jemiba, there *clearly* are demonstrably wrong positions - flat earthers come to mind. Please, don't go down the "all opinions are equally valid" feelgood slippery slope. Lies need to be called out consistently, *ESPECIALLY* in a forum like this.

 

[Arjen]

The results of the 2020 US presidential elections are now a controversial subject. Proceed from there.

 

[Justo Miranda]

The PM system would ideal for this.
But how motivated the member to make the Politic discussions in PM instead of filling the Forum ?

Soft power

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hello Jemiba, there *clearly* are demonstrably wrong positions - flat earthers come to mind. Please, don't go down the "all opinions are equally valid" feelgood slippery slope. Lies need to be called out consistently, *ESPECIALLY* in a forum like this.

If all opinions are not equally valid, that means that an authority mentally superior to others must decide which opinions are valid and which are not, over time new ideas will go elsewhere and only a dying sect will remain. All ideas must be admitted for discussion and as is done in scientific environments, try to prove their falsity by rational, not emotional, means.

 

[martinbayer]

If all opinions are not equally valid, that means that an authority mentally superior to others must decide which opinions are valid and which are not, over time new ideas will go elsewhere and only a dying sect will remain. All ideas must be admitted for discussion and as is done in scientific environments, try to prove their falsity by rational, not emotional, means.

So what's your view on flat vs. spherical Earth?

 

[Arjen]

I fear your answer will involve spherical chickens in a vacuum.

 

[Justo Miranda]

So what's your view on flat vs. spherical Earth?

Everyone knows that the earth is round but in any era, there have always been individuals eager for notoriety through provocation, in Western societies they proliferate taking advantage of tolerance... no one hangs them from a crane as happens in other places.

Christo and Jeanne-Claude - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Justo Miranda]

I fear your answer will involve spherical chickens in a vacuum.

I think it refers to that anecdote about an entrepreneur who made the mistake of asking some scientists to design a machine for peeling chickens and they decided that, to simplify the calculations, they would start by assuming that chickens are spherical.

 

[publiusr]

The Zwickassee Fricassee

 

[Justo Miranda]

The Zwickassee Fricassee

Scientists in my country are not known for their breakthroughs, but during the 1960s they managed to get a variety of chickens with six thighs incubating eggs in a nuclear reactor....they couldn't reach them.