Iranian Qaher-313 "indigenous fighter jet"

[snne]

Is this thing even capable of having an internal weapon bay?

 

[snne]

Su-35 was purchased as replacement of F-14 or at least F-14 being relegated to rear until if ever Iran upgrades those considerably.
Considering parts or even entire CFM-56 turbofan engine being produced by MAPNA then F-14 life can be extended for a decade.
Since it is still large aircraft with huge nose and enough space for engines to house F110 or larger more modern turbofan.

what about the airframe life? You can't modernize aircraft forever and no matter how many parts you locally produce, the critical ones will get more and more scarce.

If they ever intend on having a capable air force again, they have to place an order of at least 60-80 aircraft. Since Iran is a large country and they have a huge front with a dozen enemies, they need even more if they want to deny airspace to 4th gen aircraft.

 

[BullpupRafale]

Is this thing even capable of having an internal weapon bay?

Do you see any place to mount pylons on wings? That answers your question.

what about the airframe life? You can't modernize aircraft forever and no matter how many parts you locally produce, the critical ones will get more and more scarce.

If you were informed about Iranian aerospace industry then you would have not wrote this in first place to begin with.
Iran is entirely locally manufacturing F-5 E/F Tiger II with some improvements to components compared to original.
They have made parts for F-14 and produced substitute for AIM-54 Phoenix for that aircraft for years.

If they ever intend on having a capable air force again, they have to place an order of at least 60-80 aircraft. Since Iran is a large country and they have a huge front with a dozen enemies, they need even more if they want to deny airspace to 4th gen aircraft.

Hence they have vast interconnected air defense network of surface to air missiles and array of radars.
Iran has developed radar upgrade for their Kowsar F-5 E/F clone with comparable range to MiG-29.
Such tiny aircraft that is a light fighter category as is MiG-21 as an example of size and weight.

Question is would Iran try reverse engineering RD-33 or develop a new fighter jet with larger jet engine like F101/F110.

 

[F.L.]

Iran is entirely locally manufacturing F-5 E/F Tiger II with some improvements to components compared to original.

Iran has developed radar upgrade for their Kowsar F-5 E/F clone with comparable range to MiG-29.
Such tiny aircraft that is a light fighter category as is MiG-21 as an example of size and weight.

Unfortunately, for my part I never had the proof that these improved F-5E had received a new radar and that they were produced in more than 4/5 examples.
Whether it's the Saeqeh, Azaraksh or Kowsar, I'm still waiting to find out more.
Although it would be really too extraordinary if the Iranians had just made them for disinformation purposes. I think they really modified the F-5E, but there is no evidence that there are more than a few, and that there is a production line.
Moreover, we have never seen the F-5+ with improved missile: R-77, R-73 ...

It's a pity, because there was a good article on Iranian F-5 modernizations on "The F-5 Enthusiast Page". But this site disappeared recently.

 

[Deino]

..

Question is would Iran try reverse engineering RD-33 or develop a new fighter jet with larger jet engine like F101/F110.

Guys ... I think we should come back to reality in this thread! The Q-313 is not even close to anything realistic, not even by chance an option to evolve into a "fifth generation type" and Iran - regardless of all its achievements - is far, far away from being able to "copy the RD-33" or "develop a new fighter jet with larger jet engine like F101/F110!" or a fighter in the class of the F-14!

Simply forget this ... any further such claims should be moved into the what-if section.

 

[F.L.]

Simply forget this ... any further such claims should be moved into the what-if section.

This is not a what if !
It is a project on which the Iranians have been working for ten years now. This proves that it is "serious".
Having doubts about the feasibility of a project does not make it a what-if.
Otherwise, many projects in other countries would also be what ifs. Many builders have already tried to make projects beyond their possibilities.
The future will show us who was right. It seems that new pictures of the project should be published soon, that the articles I mentioned above.

 

[Arjen]

I am yet to be convinced that Q-313 is not a mockup.

 

[Hood]

You have to keep perspective on all these statements and judge by track records.

The various rebuilt F-5s (Kowsar, Azarakhsh, Saeqeh and Simorgh) barely got over a dozen airframes - although in fairness when rebuilding you are limited by the number of donor airframes you have.
The Shafaq never materailised.
The Qaher 'prototypes' or more likely mock-ups, were roundly condemned as a propaganda stunt. I'll give the benefit of doubt and say that they were mock-ups for public consumption while the real Qaher was probably safely on a HESA drawing board (the BAE Tempest mock-up at Cosford was the same case - plastic kits to keep the punters happy). But I don't think that the Qaher was ever built as a functional aircraft.

It doesn't seem like the Dorna of 1999 entered production. Only two Yasin prototypes have been built in four years and its a fairly pedestrian design.

HESA claimed in 2008 they would build 100 IrAn-140 aircraft... well beyond around 10 knock-down kits from Antonov that never happened. Yes engine quality issues leading to crashes didn't help things, but the revised Simourgh only appeared last year in prototype form. Its notable that while the three crashes were either due to engine or avionics failure that HESA has found the need to change the wings and tail - some of this is connected with the new ramp door rear-end but it also could be for easier manufacturing (untapered wing).

Helicopters have been pretty much a case of conversions or rebuildings, again probably less than a dozen of the various Bell 206 copies/rebuilds have been completed.

They have done much better in the UAV field, there is no denying that. If anything this statement that the Qaher programme is to be reconfigured as a UAV lends weight to the fact that HESA has recognised where its strength lie and decided to focus on unmanned rather than trying to aim too high with manned aircraft.

Copying the CFM56 is more aimed at keeping their Western airliners airworthy given the embargoes in place that make getting hold of spares very difficult. Certainly Iran has been adept at making its own supply chains to keep old kit running.

 

[BullpupRafale]

Unfortunately, for my part I never had the proof that these improved F-5E had received a new radar and that they were produced in more than 4/5 examples.
Whether it's the Saeqeh, Azaraksh or Kowsar, I'm still waiting to find out more.
Although it would be really too extraordinary if the Iranians had just made them for disinformation purposes. I think they really modified the F-5E, but there is no evidence that there are more than a few, and that there is a production line.
Moreover, we have never seen the F-5+ with improved missile: R-77, R-73 ...

It's a pity, because there was a good article on Iranian F-5 modernizations on "The F-5 Enthusiast Page". But this site disappeared recently.

Iran choose to maintain F-5 E/F thus invested in developing capacity to upkeep those.
Further development of aerospace industry to produce new examples is logical move.
Although most of manufacturing output goes to maintaining jets already in service.

At some point F-5 E/F will be completely replaced by Kowsar and newer fighter jets.
As lifespan of airframe is exhausted beyond possibility of any lifespan extensions.
Those that can be maintained are likely converted to Kowsar standard if possible.

Another is Yasin jet trainer that went through revision and set for mass production.
This is time when results of their research and development come into full effect.
As such happened with North Korea in realm of ballistic missile they developed.

Guys ... I think we should come back to reality in this thread!

I would have taken you seriously if you didn't wrote this:

The Q-313 is not even close to anything realistic, not even by chance an option to evolve into a "fifth generation type" and Iran - regardless of all its achievements - is far, far away from being able to "copy the RD-33" or "develop a new fighter jet with larger jet engine like F101/F110!" or a fighter in the class of the F-14!

Qaher was unveiled in 2013 with a physical model for representing fighter project.
In 2016 unveiled reverse engineered J85-GE-21 turbojet engine under name Owj.
In 2017 there was a full scale prototype that has conducted tests on runway.
In 2018 unveiled domestically produced F-5 E/F jets under name Kowsar.
In 2019 new aircraft design Yasin jet trainer was unveiled with test flight.
In 2020 unveiled reverse engineered FJ33 turbofan under name Jahesh.
In 2023 disclosed project is being reformed and adapted into UCAV.
Also in 2023 disclosed parts of CFM-56 being domestically made.

J85-GE-21 has annular combustor along blades made out of titanium alloy.
*also continuous spool compared to J85 that has cannular combustor.
FJ33 has bladed disk turbofan with mediuo ratio bypass and has two spools.
*has annular combustor and features titanium blades on its bladed disk.
CFM-56 is derived from F101 and F110 is further development of F101 turbofan.
*F110 utilizes bladed disk for it's turbofan.

Progress they made in past 10 years could not be more obvious now than ever before.

Simply forget this ... any further such claims should be moved into the what-if section.

Yet you have wrote this:

The Q-313 is not even close to anything realistic

This is not a what if !
It is a project on which the Iranians have been working for ten years now. This proves that it is "serious".
Having doubts about the feasibility of a project does not make it a what-if.
Otherwise, many projects in other countries would also be what ifs. Many builders have already tried to make projects beyond their possibilities.
The future will show us who was right. It seems that new pictures of the project should be published soon, that the articles I mentioned above.

Anyone claiming it being mockup has wishful thinking of what if it was a mockup.

Copying the CFM56 is more aimed at keeping their Western airliners airworthy given the embargoes in place that make getting hold of spares very difficult. Certainly Iran has been adept at making its own supply chains to keep old kit running.

CFM-56 being derived from F101 probably gave it more support for cloning.
Compared to Trent series of turbofan engines used by some airliners that Iran has.

 

[Arjen]

Anyone claiming it being mockup has wishful thinking of what if it was a mockup.

My opinion of the Q-313 has suffered from first viewing the initial wholly unconvincing, well, 'thing'. The second item - were there more? - didn't do enough to remove my skepticism.

Images of a Q-313 in flight would be nice. I haven't seen any, but my attempts to find some may have been less than adept. Can you provide images?

 

[FighterJock]

The first flight will only happen if the Iranians have the necessary funding available to build the Q-313, at the moment I do not think this is possible. At present all we have currently is the mockup and not a fully fledged flyable prototype.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Getting tired of this topic. Lets see some actual evidence of something. I don't see the utility of this shape for a UAV.

 

[Deino]

Simply forget this ... any further such claims should be moved into the what-if section.

This is not a what if !
It is a project on which the Iranians have been working for ten years now. This proves that it is "serious".
Having doubts about the feasibility of a project does not make it a what-if.
Otherwise, many projects in other countries would also be what ifs. Many builders have already tried to make projects beyond their possibilities.
The future will show us who was right. It seems that new pictures of the project should be published soon, that the articles I mentioned above.

Please read again ... I'm not speaking about the Q-313 but about these rumours of an alleged 5th generation fighter, something in the class of the F-14 and powered by either RD-33 or CFM-56 based military engine. That's a what if!

 

[BullpupRafale]

Please read again ... I'm not speaking about the Q-313 but about these rumours of an alleged 5th generation fighter, something in the class of the F-14 and powered by either RD-33 or CFM-56 based military engine. That's a what if!

What rumors?

 

[Arjen]

Question is would Iran try reverse engineering RD-33 or develop a new fighter jet with larger jet engine like F101/F110.

Your speculation. Your notion? What-if territory.

 

[F.L.]

Oubliez simplement ceci... toute autre réclamation de ce type devrait être déplacée dans la section "What-if".

Ce n'est pas un et si !
C'est un projet sur lequel les Iraniens travaillent depuis maintenant dix ans. Cela prouve que c'est "sérieux".
Avoir des doutes sur la faisabilité d'un projet n'en fait pas une hypothèse.
Sinon, de nombreux projets dans d'autres pays seraient également des hypothèses. De nombreux constructeurs ont déjà essayé de réaliser des projets au-delà de leurs possibilités.
L'avenir nous dira qui avait raison. Il semble que de nouvelles photos du projet devraient être publiées prochainement, ainsi que les articles dont j'ai parlé plus haut.

Veuillez relire ... Je ne parle pas du Q-313 mais de ces rumeurs d'un prétendu chasseur de 5ème génération, quelque chose dans la classe du F-14 et propulsé par un moteur militaire basé sur RD-33 ou CFM-56 . C'est un et si!

 

[martinbayer]

And there with switching languages again in the midst of a discussion - my boss calls behavior like that "squirting squid ink"...

 

[lancer21]

On the issue of the suitability of thing thing even as an UCAV, have to agree with Overscan's post above. And i will add the following, what would a hypothetical unmanned Qaher bring compared an updated/modified version of RQ-170 than Iran DOES have, and which has already been successfully reverse-engineered? The Qaher thing, nothwithstanding the dubious aerodynamic configuration, is faceted for crying out loud, which 40 years old tech.

Most UCAVs today seem to be flying wing, LO and high flying. Seriously doubt Qaher can even fly acceptably, let alone be LO and fly at high subsonic speeds and high altitudes. Upscale the RQ-170 a bit, put two engines on it, couple of internal bays and voila, a competent and menacing UCAV is born.

 

[BullpupRafale]

RQ-170 is by itself slow and Iranian clones are not comparable to it because they are either slower and or have less range than original.
They will be on par if inefficient turbojet such as Toloue-4 is replaced with efficient turbofan such as Jahesh-700 is implemented.
At some point aerodynamic resistance is too great as airframe would crumble or there would be need for powerful engine.

Qaher-313 as UCAV could probably be unmanned fighter jet in role of loyal wingman since Iran prefers jets with pilot and co-pilot.
Hence co-pilot could be given control of such UCAV's and give them various tasks to execute be it defensive or offensive pattern.
UCAV variant could carry more fuel or change internal fuel storage allocation to allow for larger internal bays or more of them.

Anyway Qaher project could have extensive redesign as is case in development of aircraft like it happened with MiG-21 and F-15.

 

[Arjen]

I think it's time to put this thing to rest - in an unmarked grave.

 

[F.L.]

I think it's time to put this thing to rest - in an unmarked grave.

The managing director of the Iran Aviation Industries Organization (IAIO), a subsidiary of the Defense Ministry, announced in a televised interview on 18 February 2023 that the fighter had reached technical maturity but would be reworked and fielded as an unmanned drone rather than a manned aircraft to adapt it to the requirements of Iranian military units, first deliveries would be made in the middle of 2024. No development progress had been publicly demonstrated since taxi trials took place in 2017.

 

[BullpupRafale]

I think it's time to put this thing to rest - in an unmarked grave.

No one forces anyone in here to be here and read any reply in this thread.
We know that Qaher project has changed direction to being UCAV.
All there is to wait and see until they release more information.

I think it's time to put this thing to rest - in an unmarked grave.

The managing director of the Iran Aviation Industries Organization (IAIO), a subsidiary of the Defense Ministry, announced in a televised interview on 18 February 2023 that the fighter had reached technical maturity but would be reworked and fielded as an unmanned drone rather than a manned aircraft to adapt it to the requirements of Iranian military units, first deliveries would be made in the middle of 2024. No development progress had been publicly demonstrated since taxi trials took place in 2017.

Also isn't 10 to 15 years typical development time for an fighter sized aircraft?

 

[lancer21]

I think it's time to put this thing to rest - in an unmarked grave.

Certainly don't agree, it's a subject to be further discussed, despite some of our misgivings, especially as there seem to be some future developments.

 

[F.L.]

I think it's time to put this thing to rest - in an unmarked grave.

I think that some people should refrain from sarcasm and prefer a constructive and above all apolitical way of discussion. This would benefit all.

 

[Arjen]

I think I have refrained from politics. I will be extremely surprised if a Q-313 lookalike takes to the air under its own power. You may quote me if the occasion arises.

 

[quellish]

Where does the fuel go?

 

[BullpupRafale]

Where does the fuel go?

If you have ever seen Qaher-313 and F-5 Tiger 2 then you would not have asked such question along knew size of J85-GE-21 turbojet.
Qaher-313 is shorter than F-5 Tiger II by length of M39 automatic cannon which former doesn't have any autocannon armarment.
You have pictures of both Qaher and F-5 available on world wide web to make comparison between the two involving size.

Look at the wings of Qaher-313 and tell me that doesn't have wing tanks for jet fuel along fuselage being larger.

 

[lancer21]

RQ-170 is by itself slow and Iranian clones are not comparable to it because they are either slower and or have less range than original.
They will be on par if inefficient turbojet such as Toloue-4 is replaced with efficient turbofan such as Jahesh-700 is implemented.
At some point aerodynamic resistance is too great as airframe would crumble or there would be need for powerful engine.

Qaher-313 as UCAV could probably be unmanned fighter jet in role of loyal wingman since Iran prefers jets with pilot and co-pilot.
Hence co-pilot could be given control of such UCAV's and give them various tasks to execute be it defensive or offensive pattern.
UCAV variant could carry more fuel or change internal fuel storage allocation to allow for larger internal bays or more of them.

Anyway Qaher project could have extensive redesign as is case in development of aircraft like it happened with MiG-21 and F-15.

On the issue of engines, do you know if Iran managed to recover the RQ-4 engine? And also about efforts to reverse engineer the RQ-170 engine, presumably they know for sure what type it is? (wiki says it's either TFE731 or TF34). Jahesh is low power, to me at least either of those two would be a more achievable short term goal for a more powerful iranian engine than CFM56.

 

[martinbayer]

In the former cockpit .

 

[BullpupRafale]

On the issue of engines, do you know if Iran managed to recover the RQ-4 engine? And also efforts to reverse engineer the RQ-170 engine, presumably they know for sure what type it is? (wiki says it's either TFE731 or TF34). Jahesh is low power, to me at least either of those two would be a more achievable short term goal for a more powerful iranian engine.

It is very evident from Iranian showcase of captured RQ-170 Sentinel (stealth?) UAV that it is not a large aircraft.
Both of those turbofan engines would be an overkill for that UAV and both of them would not even fit inside it.
FJ44 or FJ33 are suitable and seeing Iran reverse engineer FJ33 then likely being engine used in RQ-170 UAV.

Since RQ-170 not counting landing gear and focusing on middle section is at most between 70 or 80 centimeters tall.
RQ-170 does not have any capacity to carry any form of weapon and it is an intelligence gathering focused UAV.
More or less it is basically a flying fuel tank with camera and corresponding electronics for UAV operation.

 

[aim9xray]

Where does the fuel go?

In the pilot's CamelBak(TM).

 

[Arjen]

On the issue of engines, do you know if Iran managed to recover the RQ-4 engine? And also about efforts to reverse engineer the RQ-170 engine, presumably they know for sure what type it is?

Laying your hands on an intact engine will help you to understand its workings. It less helpful in understanding how to manufacture such an engine - you must be able to replicate mechanical tolerances, you need materials knowledge. And access to tools.

In the eighties, Toshiba got into an uncomfortable situation in the US when it sold then-state-of-the-art milling machines to the Soviet Union. These were used to produced submarine propellers much quieter than the ones produced before.

 

[BullpupRafale]

On the issue of engines, do you know if Iran managed to recover the RQ-4 engine?

Laying your hands on an intact engine will help you to understand its workings. It less helpful in understanding how to manufacture such an engine - you must be able to replicate mechanical tolerances, you need materials knowledge. And access to tools.

Considering it was shot down by SAM and splashed into the sea, unlikely that it would be entirely intact except maybe few things.
It wasn't semi-controlled crash landing that RQ-170 was and being relatively intact with only airframe breaking neatly into three sections.
If by some miracle engine used in RQ-4 survived the shot down then it would be great example for Iranian aerospace industry to analyze.

 

[lancer21]

On the issue of engines, do you know if Iran managed to recover the RQ-4 engine? And also efforts to reverse engineer the RQ-170 engine, presumably they know for sure what type it is? (wiki says it's either TFE731 or TF34). Jahesh is low power, to me at least either of those two would be a more achievable short term goal for a more powerful iranian engine.

It is very evident from Iranian showcase of captured RQ-170 Sentinel (stealth?) UAV that it is not a large aircraft.
Both of those turbofan engines would be an overkill for that UAV and both of them would not even fit inside it.
FJ44 or FJ33 are suitable and seeing Iran reverse engineer FJ33 then likely being engine used in RQ-170 UAV.

Since RQ-170 not counting landing gear and focusing on middle section is at most between 70 or 80 centimeters tall.
RQ-170 does not have any capacity to carry any form of weapon and it is an intelligence gathering focused UAV.
More or less it is basically a flying fuel tank with camera and corresponding electronics for UAV operation.

If i'm not mistaken at least some the iranian RQ-170 copies the Shahed-171/181/191 have been modified with weapons bays?

I was theorizing in a previous post an enlarged RQ-170 copy that could accomodate a larger engine/engines, weapon bays etc. Just like they downsized it's various derivatives they could upsize it as well if they want to go that way.

And about that RQ-4 yeah kinda forgot it was blown to pieces by the iranian SAM.

 

[BullpupRafale]

If i'm not mistaken at least some the iranian RQ-170 copies the Shahed-171/181/191 have been modified with weapons bays?

Yes and that further reduces range because there is less space for jet fuel to be stored.

I was theorizing in a previous post an enlarged RQ-170 copy that could accomodate a larger engine/engines, weapon bays etc. Just like they downsized it's various derivatives they could upsize it as well if they want to go that way.

And about that RQ-4 yeah kinda forgot it was blown to pieces by the iranian SAM.

It is what it is, if we see turbofan similar to one used by RQ-4 then we can assume that engine survived well enough to be closely analyzed.

 

[flateric]

Can you return back to topic?

 

[Ainen]

Getting tired of this topic. Lets see some actual evidence of something. I don't see the utility of this shape for a UAV.

kızılelma analog may be doable.

 

[F.L.]

I've always thought that !
F-313 & Bayraktar Kızılelma drone.

All proportions and comparisons aside.

 

[BullpupRafale]

There are no information available that discloses dimensions of Qaher-313.
Though my guess ~13 meter length and 10~ meter wingspan at most.
Unknown aircraft in North Korea has comparable dimensions.

 

[lancer21]

I've always thought that !
View attachment 699574

Your design actually looks very nice.