Iranian Indigenous Fighter projects (Saeqeh, etc)

[Deino]

What is the source for the pictures? Looks a bit like screen shots from a news cast ???

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

I found them here at the ACIG-forum.

http://www.s188567700.online.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5950&start=90

Deino

 

[donnage99]

more like a bomber configuration tbh.
top mounted intakes don't have a good performance at alpha 30. it's more of a compromise solution to increase payload. OR perhaps they just plan it to be a pure interceptor?

wing sweep angle isn't optimised for supersonic flight, so I think it's a bomber rather than interceptor.

 

[Sundog]

The wings look optimized for transonic flight, like the YF-17, F-18, F-5 (Which they have experience with).

 

[Deino]

Slightly better pics....

Deino

 

[Sundog]

Thanks Deino, excellent pics. What I find interesting in them is that neither design has all moving tails. I can understand on the deltawing design, but I'm somewhat shocked to not see them on the trapezoidal wing configuration. Of course, seeing the trapezoidal wing in more detail now, it looks very similar to the F-22/PAK-FA's in basic shape as well.

 

[donnage99]

What I find interesting is the LEX. With the inlet on top, this aircraft doesn't seem to be optimized for maneuverability, yet it has that kind of LEX? It's like putting 2 conflicting characteristics into one airframe, so the question is still "what is the aircraft optimized for?"

 

[Sundog]

What I find interesting is the LEX. With the inlet on top, this aircraft doesn't seem to be optimized for maneuverability, yet it has that kind of LEX? It's like putting 2 conflicting characteristics into one airframe, so the question is still "what is the aircraft optimized for?"

What leads you to believe it isn't designed for maneuverability? Don't forget Northrop has designed "maneuverable" aircraft with dorsal inlets, and based on what I've read of them, it's the LEX's that create the vortices that help feed air to the inlet(s) at high alpha.

 

[Eagle2009]

Indeed those two models have caused quite a stir on military forums all over the net. There is an image of the diamond-shaped model actually flying out there as well (I dont have enough posts to post images yet). What kind of engines would power such small drones? There has been the suggestion of the Iran's Tolue-4 turbojet engine but I believe the model is too small to hold 2 engines of such size (I could be wrong of course)...Thoughts?

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

^LEX is too far from the inlet to create vortices...

I'm more inclined to believe that it's a "drone/UCAV controller"

 

[Eagle2009]

I think a good comparison of these drones is the small stealthy drone built by France that led to the current development of the Neuron UCAV. Such examples are like the Petit Duc subscale test drone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_AVE-D_Petit_Duc

 

[Eagle2009]

On an unrelated point, here is a new angle of an Iranian Fighter Model that has been seen a few times in the past..Unknown whether the design ever got past the model stage but interesting nonetheless..

 

[lancer21]

Very interesting... looks like it's in the same class as JF-17/Tejas for instance( offcourse IF they can build it it's another matter , especially given the current climate )...do you have more of it Eagle 2009 , i dont remember seeing this one before ...thanks.

 

[Eagle2009]

No problem,

There have been several pics of this model in the past decade..This angle caused a stir because at first it wasnt thought to be the same model but it was discovered later to be otherwise..No one knows much about the design (even Tom Cooper, an expert on Iranian Military Aircraft knows little about it)..Overall to me its fairly similar to early concepts of the Super 7 and IAR-95, so a 3.5 generation fighter design. It has rather squarish, boxy intakes and has a fairly small LERX, but has alot of room for improvement and advance. Most experts think the design is likely dead (so perhaps I should post this image in the Post-War section?), but nevertheless it started alot of discussion and raised alot of questions including what kind of engine it would have, where its design came from, etc. Sadly thats all I know. Here are some additional pictures:

 

[lancer21]

Thank you for your help

All just theory but imho it might well be the initial design for the Saeqeh( how they wanted it to be) , that one has twin tails , and boxier intakes aswell (at least the prototype ). But again , the current climate and their aeronauthical industry capacity maby didnt allowed them to proceed with this design as of yet...

Doesnt look bad tho.

 

[Eagle2009]

Regardless of whether its a current program or not (prolly not according to those more knowledgable than I), here is a new image of that fighter model showing a better and more clear angle than most of the previous images of it:

 

[vulture]

What about this small model in the background? What is it? It looks somewhat like a MiG-29 but the wings and air intakes are different.

 

[vulture]

It is shown in this image posted by Eagle2009 on page 3 of this subject

 

[Eagle2009]

It has been assumed to be a model of the MiG-29 but I think its too small to make any concrete suggestions..Though i do agree from what we can see the wings look a bit different but its so small and grainy I can't say for certain...Good eye though!

 

[Eagle2009]

Ran across something very interesting today..

It's a report from Amirkabir University of Technology ( a major tech university in Iran) on the idea of Iran building their own Region Jet design. Now you might ask yourself why this has anything to do with Iranian Fighter projects..Here's the catch. At the end of the report it shows graphics/drawings of previous projects by the AUT and included are several very interesing fighter designs..Including a few that look a little familiar.

Now how far any of these designs ever made it along the evolutionary chain of aircraft development is a mystery to me, but the concepts are quite modern and fairly detailed all considered.

Enjoy!

NOTE: Due to the size of the file, I can only post images from the report. However the original sources can be downloaded thru a link on HESA's website (through 4Share).

 

[Eagle2009]

More design concepts..

 

[Matej]

NOTE: Due to the size of the file, I can only post images from the report. However the original sources can be downloaded thru a link on HESA's website (through 4Share).

Can you post a link please? I am very interested.

Edit: found: http://www.4shared.com/rar/GrYohA_E/1388-1389_Green_Regional_Jet__.html Worth the download, never seen designs in it!

 

[fightingirish]

Tu-154M as F-5 ejection seat test bed (Iran) ;D

 

[Matej]

Except all its craziness, isn't it really expensive testbed?

 

[Jemiba]

Actually, it seems not a bad idea to me, to use an old airliner, instead of a fighter-like
aircraft, that may be in short supply. In a larger aircraft, it is easier to install test equipment
and although it really looks a little bit crazy, I don't think, that it's a very expensive
modification: Beefing up the fin and putting a dummy forward fuselage on it ...

 

[Spook]

Yes, they were in line for 300 F-16s.

Sir sorry to be off-topic thought,
Regarding the F-16 let me explain it more in details:

Iran Ordered 300 160 General Dynamics F-16 A/B .. around 60 of them were suppose to be delivered directly by United States and the rest were suppose to be built in Iran in Esfehan.. Different Types of Machines to build different Parts were delivered including Many Spare parts Including blue prints and the PW F100-PW-200 engine(" not quite sure how many of them really"), but i believe the engine that i saw back in 2010 was F-100.
The same thing went in Iran-Iraq war, Iran was able to purchase some of the parts for its air force fleet from black markets and few countries and when they would open the boxes they would have seen F-16 spar parts among the other parts that they ordered, also i have to mention that around 7-8 Iranian pilots were sent for training. I will be posting few pictures of Imperial Iranian Air force General. Khamene Evaluation General dynamics F16A block 1, and please do take the close look to the Last picture , it is related to an interview with Brid.General Mohammad Tayebi Regarding Operation H3 that was shown on national TV last Week , do take a note of his F-16 Patch, Interesting Isnt it?

 

[fightingirish]

Just a quick idea. Maybe that General got that F-16 patch during an pilot exchange trip to Pakistan or Venezuela. :-\

 

[Spook]

Just a quick idea. Maybe that General got that F-16 patch during an pilot exchange trip to Pakistan or Venezuela. :-\

No Sir... As i know Iran did not do any cooperation with Venezuela or Pakistan in F-16 matter.
Regards,
Ardavan

 

[Spook]

Northrop sold complete YF-17 documentation to Iran.

May i know the source for this statement ?!

Thanks,
AK

 

[Matej]

May i know the source for this statement ?!

Thanks,
AK

Hi Ardavan. Under the promises I made, unfortunately no. But my sources gave me a lot of usefull information to clean the mess between various domestic types (Shafagh, Saqueh, Azarakhsh...), so I found them very reliable. They pointed me also to strong pressure of various US manufacturers to sell state of the art equipment to Iran before the revolution. Not only set the F-16 production line there, but also YF-17 documentation or even the Lockheed's plan to modify stored Lockheed A-12 recce planes into F-12 standard and sell them to Iran.

It seems that you also have access to interesting material. Do you have anything related to Shafagh/Shafaq? I am searching for the information about its current status, timeline of its development (for example was original M-ATF made before Shafagh and it reincarnated sometime in 2005/6?), its connection to Mukhamedov designs and such a things.

 

[crabanero]

I am sorry, if this is true, they sure haven't used the access to this information, production lines, etc. very well...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

But my sources gave me a lot of usefull information to clean the mess between various domestic types (Shafagh, Saqueh, Azarakhsh...), so I found them very reliable.

I doubt there are any realiable sources from Iran these days thanks to the propaganda heavy handedness of their regime. Various claims have been made by the Iranians that are significantly baseless about their industrial capability and warfighting (RAAF mercanieries flying Mirage F1 Exocet strikes for Iraq is one of the best). Plus an information package on the YF-17 as a potential customer is one thing, but a complete design would not be exported by the US.

That been said in the mid to late 1970s Iran was THE market for western weaponry. According to "Iran at War: 1500-1988" by Kaveh Farrokh the IIAF had plans underway at the revolution to buy another 240 F-4Es, the 300 F-16s (including local assembly from kits) to replace the F-5, another wing of F-14s (75), 180 F/A-18s (to start replacing the F-4s) and 53 F-15s! Plus it is well documented that the Navy was looking at an Invincible class carrier with an air wing of Sea Harriers to fly from them. It would actually be an interesting endeavour to research up a full list of Iran's weaponry acquisition plans that were scuppered by the revolution.

 

[Grey Havoc]

I suppose this would have come under the heading of 'Command and Control': http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17768.0.html

 

[Antonio]

They were looking for 3 Invicible class carriers but realized that it was impossible to train the crews to efficiently operate it in a reasonable term of time. Being a "carrier capable navy" takes many years.
The Air Defence Spruace design (the Kidd class) would have been the Invincible escorts.

 

[chuck4]

But my sources gave me a lot of usefull information to clean the mess between various domestic types (Shafagh, Saqueh, Azarakhsh...), so I found them very reliable.

I doubt there are any realiable sources from Iran these days thanks to the propaganda heavy handedness of their regime. Various claims have been made by the Iranians that are significantly baseless about their industrial capability and warfighting (RAAF mercanieries flying Mirage F1 Exocet strikes for Iraq is one of the best). Plus an information package on the YF-17 as a potential customer is one thing, but a complete design would not be exported by the US.

That been said in the mid to late 1970s Iran was THE market for western weaponry. According to "Iran at War: 1500-1988" by Kaveh Farrokh the IIAF had plans underway at the revolution to buy another 240 F-4Es, the 300 F-16s (including local assembly from kits) to replace the F-5, another wing of F-14s (75), 180 F/A-18s (to start replacing the F-4s) and 53 F-15s! Plus it is well documented that the Navy was looking at an Invincible class carrier with an air wing of Sea Harriers to fly from them. It would actually be an interesting endeavour to research up a full list of Iran's weaponry acquisition plans that were scuppered by the revolution.

How credible is it that a single AIR FORCE would make foreign purchases involving f-4, f-14 and f-15 at the same time? Not to mention f-16 and f-18 at the same time? This is rediculous.


Also, the ayatollah did not invent the oppressiveness and profound unpopularity of the Shah. If it wasn't the Khomanei, sooner or later some other dissenting force would probably rise to destabilize the shah's regime. It was far better that the Iranian revolution happened earlier than later, when Iran might have gotten her hands on a far larger inventory of modern western equipment. Or that what arose was not a pro soviet regime.

 

[Matej]

How credible is it that a single AIR FORCE would make foreign purchases involving f-4, f-14 and f-15 at the same time? Not to mention f-16 and f-18 at the same time? This is rediculous.

It is a bit offtopic, but I suggest you to take a look at the inventory of Indonesian air force. They have 22 fighters in six (!) different types and they are going to complete them with another used F-16C/D, they own Hawks 53, 109 and 209, but in the same time they are buying a few T-50 Golden Eagles, etc..

Malaysia also operates MiG-29N, MiG-29NUB, F/A-18D, Su-30MKM, Hawk 108 and Hawk 208 at the same time. Politics is a weird thing, sometimes strange things happens

 

[chuck4]

How credible is it that a single AIR FORCE would make foreign purchases involving f-4, f-14 and f-15 at the same time? Not to mention f-16 and f-18 at the same time? This is rediculous.

It is a bit offtopic, but I suggest you to take a look at the inventory of Indonesian air force. They have 22 fighters in six (!) different types and they are going to complete them with another used F-16C/D, they own Hawks 53, 109 and 209, but in the same time they are buying a few T-50 Golden Eagles, etc..

Malaysia also operates MiG-29N, MiG-29NUB, F/A-18D, Su-30MKM, Hawk 108 and Hawk 208 at the same time. Politics is a weird thing, sometimes strange things happens

Those are small airforces making ad hoc purchases over a period of time, not a single cohesiv, large force structure plan

 

[lancer21]

But my sources gave me a lot of usefull information to clean the mess between various domestic types (Shafagh, Saqueh, Azarakhsh...), so I found them very reliable.

That been said in the mid to late 1970s Iran was THE market for western weaponry. According to "Iran at War: 1500-1988" by Kaveh Farrokh the IIAF had plans underway at the revolution to buy another 240 F-4Es, the 300 F-16s (including local assembly from kits) to replace the F-5, another wing of F-14s (75), 180 F/A-18s (to start replacing the F-4s) and 53 F-15s! Plus it is well documented that the Navy was looking at an Invincible class carrier with an air wing of Sea Harriers to fly from them. It would actually be an interesting endeavour to research up a full list of Iran's weaponry acquisition plans that were scuppered by the revolution.

Indeed it will be very interesting. I think they were having at least 7 E-3 AEWs in the pipeline too , right ? Regarding the F-4Es, slightly odd that 240 figure imo, why would they buy an old design at the time in such high numbers when newer type were available? I believe the author must have been confused, perhaps 240 represented the total F-4D/E /RF-4 order or just the total F-4E order (apparently there were F-4Es and RF-4s that were not delivered because of the revolution). Imagine Iran's air power ( if nothing else, in comparison to it's neighbours- except USSR of course) and the technological disaster for US ( latest model F-14, F-15 and F-16 available to inquiring-and generous-minds anyone? ) if the revolution would have happened say 10 years later...ouch! ;D

 

[Abraham Gubler]

How credible is it that a single AIR FORCE would make foreign purchases involving f-4, f-14 and f-15 at the same time? Not to mention f-16 and f-18 at the same time? This is rediculous.

There is good reason for the multiple aircraft types (the USA was buying all of these aircraft at the same time) and the condensation of the orders is due to the urgent Iranian assessment they had to build a defence capability within 10 years that could defeat a Soviet invasion. The F-4Es were to be brought to bring their strike fighter numbers up to 400-500 before 1982ish. The F-16s were for air to air and to replace the F-5s which would then be lead in fighter trainers. The F/A-18s were to replace the F-4Es when available, which is not at the same time. The first F/A-18s would be entering service when the oldest F-4Es would be around 15 years old. The F-14 was to be the mainstay interceptor (150 units) and the F-15 I guess an addition to this capability that is better in close against Soviet fighters that could replace aircraft for aircraft from F-5 squadrons (no need for a RIO).

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Indeed it will be very interesting. I think they were having at least 7 E-3 AEWs in the pipeline too , right ?

Yes forgot the AWACS.

Regarding the F-4Es, slightly odd that 240 figure imo, why would they buy an old design at the time in such high numbers when newer type were available? I believe the author must have been confused, perhaps 240 represented the total F-4D/E /RF-4 order or just the total F-4E order (apparently there were F-4Es and RF-4s that were not delivered because of the revolution).

It was the only medium range strike fighter in production in the USA at the time, apart from the F-15 (“not a pound for air to ground” wasn’t true). Since they had F-4Es in service it is by far the simpler way to increase the size of their force. From memory they had around 150 F-4Es in service with 30 odd interceptor F-4Cs and a squadron of RF-4. 240 more F-4Es allows them to increase their strike fighter force from two wings to five. The book in question is pretty clear that it is an additional order and it cites a larger history of the Iranian Air Force as its source.

Imagine Iran's air power ( if nothing else, in comparison to it's neighbours- except USSR of course) and the technological disaster for US ( latest model F-14, F-15 and F-16 available to inquiring-and generous-minds anyone? ) if the revolution would have happened say 10 years later...ouch!

Add the 2,000 Shir 2 tanks, etc. The objective of the Shah was clearly (and stated as thus) to develop a force that could defeat a Soviet invasion of Iran as a secondary attack to a war in central Europe. Which isn’t so off the wall as it had been a Soviet objective for years to get control over Iran.

 

[Spook]

sorry to be off-topic , but guyz also forgot the Shah's request for 15-20 F-4Gs, which US denied and instead offered new sophisticated F-4E (still obsolete according to Shah) plus 2000/3000 Shrike missiles...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3pFNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CfsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3341%2C5379590&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2457&dat=19780817&id=YhE9AAAAIBAJ&sjid=ay4MAAAAIBAJ&pg=1196%2C572692

Another proposal was the IIAF-one (747 SP) .. which i posted its Images Earlier :

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17768.msg169453.html#msg169453

AK