Hydrogen for transportation

[Nicknick]

There are different types of fuel cells with totally different applications. Fuel cells for any vehicle or plane need to be able to be switched on and off daily (maybe expet APU for large planes) and to be operated with many load changes. All fuel cells which fullfill this demands are running on hydrogen. If any other fuel (fossil, synthetic Diesel, Ammonia...) shall be used for them, it has to be converted to hydrogen before, which usually reduces the efficiency and increases cost, weight and volume.

High temperature fuel cells can run on Methan directly and are very efficient, but they need to run continously because every new start will reduce their lifespan significantly.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

High temperature fuel cells can run on Methan directly and are very efficient, but they need to run continously because every new start will reduce their lifespan significantly.

Well yes they can but purity is the real world issue. Even PPM levels of impurities accumulate with time to kill the delicate membranes.

Ammonia can be processed by FC without prior conversion to hydrogen.

Recent progress in ammonia fuel cells and their potential applications

Conventional technologies are largely powered by fossil fuel exploitation and have ultimately led to extensive environmental concerns. Hydrogen is an excellent carbon-free energy carrier, but its storage and long-distance transportation remain big challenges. Ammonia, however, is a promising...

pubs.rsc.org

 

[Grey Havoc]

WEVA partnership looks to accelerate emissions-free inland shipping

 

[publiusr]

Looks a bit like the Big Fitz

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a tangent that may be of interest:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJjKwSF9gT8

 

[Grey Havoc]

Funding for UK project to store hydrogen using depleted uranium : Corporate - World Nuclear News

A consortium comprising EDF UK R&D, the UK Atomic Energy Authority, the University of Bristol and Urenco has been awarded GBP7.7 million (USD9.3 million) in funding from the UK's Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy to develop a hydrogen storage solution.

www.world-nuclear-news.org

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

Currently everywhere;-

 

[Foo Fighter]

MSN

This makes it opfficial I suppose. BE aircraft, tsssk.

 

[GruntFox]

MSN

This makes it opfficial I suppose. BE aircraft, tsssk.

Yeah, no. While hydrogen doesn't harm the environment, it completely and utterly loses in the energy storage race until you get into nuclear reactions. So, instead of having your car or aircraft mostly passengers and cargo, it's now mostly fuel tank. Basically the rocket problem.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

While hydrogen doesn't harm the environment, it completely and utterly loses in the energy storage race until you get into nuclear reactions.

Hydrogen leaked into the atmosphere is nasty for global warming. H2 in the atmosphere has a global warming potential (GWP) of 13 to 200;- http://agage.mit.edu/publications/global-environmental-impacts-hydrogen-economy

That’s one ton of hydrogen may cause the same global warming as up to 200 tons of CO2.

Hydrogen being the smallest molecule inherently leaks, it even seeps through metal. If the current natural gas infrastructure leakage is not significantly bettered then H2 will be worse global warming than our fossil fuel’s.

Edit ——- Whoops copied the wrong link

Should have been this one;-

News

Or this one

Scientists warn against global warming effect of hydrogen leaks

Recent studies suggest that hydrogen could be a contributor to the greenhouse effect when it leaks through infrastructure.

www.euractiv.com

 

[1635yankee]

While hydrogen doesn't harm the environment, it completely and utterly loses in the energy storage race until you get into nuclear reactions.

Hydrogen leaked into the atmosphere is nasty for global warming. H2 in the atmosphere has a global warming potential (GWP) of 13 to 200;- http://agage.mit.edu/publications/global-environmental-impacts-hydrogen-economy

That’s one ton of hydrogen may cause the same global warming as 200 tons of CO2.

Hydrogen being the smallest molecule inherently leaks, it even seeps through metal. If the current natural gas infrastructure leakage is not significantly bettered then H2 will be worse global warming than our fossil fuel’s.

It also escapes the atmosphere fairly quickly.

As an aside, diatomic molecules (like hydrogen) tend not to react strongly in the infra-red spectrum; molecules with three or more atoms tend to have much stronger interactions in the infra-red.

 

[edwest4]

Sirius Jet - hydrogen powered aircraft.

Home

Whether it's Sirius Business Jet for your professional travel or Sirius Millennium Jet for airlines or shuttle services, we've got all your travel needs covered.

siriusjet.com

 

[Scott Kenny]

Hydrogen fails in the energy per unit volume contest. Anyone pushing hydrogen for aircraft has either not thought about it or is okay with using most of the airframe for fuel and having maybe a handful of passengers.

Though that Powerpaste is interesting. Question is what to do with the magnesium hydroxide leftovers, or if there's an easy reaction to pop the hydrogen out of there as well (that doesn't involve burning the magnesium!).

Just asking in passing - if I put E85 in my very ordinary gasoline-fueled 2011 Fiat, will I shot the engine dead ?

Probably. E85 needs a lot more fuel injected to reach stoichiometric than gasoline does, and a non-flexfuel engine won't have the sensor installed to know which fuel map to use in startup. That engine may not even have big enough injectors! Performance upgrades running E85 typically install injectors at least twice the capacity of the gasoline injectors, and sometimes 5x the capacity if they're really adding boost to the engine.

At best, the engine just won't start, not enough fuel getting sprayed in to even ignite. No harm, no foul, dump out the E85 and refill with good gasoline.

At worst, it'll suffer some really bad lean knocking/detonation and break things inside, because it got just barely enough fuel to ignite. Time to rebuild the engine, if not replace it outright. If you do have to replace it, get a flex-fuel engine if one exists for that car.

What would it take to make your car run on E85? New injectors, a new computer with the ethanol fuel maps, and the flex-fuel sensor that tells the computer how much ethanol is in the fuel mix. Injectors and the fuel sensor are cheap, the computer is not.

 

[publiusr]

I always thought hydrogen was a winner in that a large tank of the stuff could be left in space as a wet workshop if you go the stage-and-a-half route---like the Convair atlas workshop

Convair Atlas Space Station/MOL by Hawk

But no nasty kerosene left-overs.

When it comes to getting a lot of floorspace in orbit---hydrogen's high volume is a plus as I see it.

Using the External Tank From the Space Shuttle as a Space Station Instead of Using it Only One Time and Throwing It Away in the Ocean

STS External Tank Station

STS External Tank Station

www.astronautix.com

No tiles, no-re-entry....SLS can be used instead of the ETs.

For aviation? No thank you.

 

[Byeman]

I always thought hydrogen was a winner in that a large tank of the stuff could be left in space as a wet workshop

Wet workshop is an outdated concept. There aren't going to be any large expended stages left in orbit anymore. Also Von Braun conceded that that concept was unworkable.
a. the stage would have to be too highly modified that it makes it useless as a nominal propulsive stage. Just better to start with the dry workshop.
b. We don't have the infrastructure in place to deal with stock stages and modify them
c. there is no common orbit to gather stock stages.
d. In a world where there is infrastructure in space to deal with junk stages and recycle them, there won't be expendable launch vehicles leaving spent empty stages in orbit to be converted into workshops. this is the part that you don't understand. SLS won't be around to be used for wet workshops and there will be no SLS follow on that will be expendable.

 

[quellish]

is that we will never learn the lesson of Hindenburg?

…don’t coat things in layers of thermite?

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

Universal Hydrogen goes pop.

Universal Hydrogen Folds - AVweb

Universal Hydrogen, which was trying to develop workable systems to power aircraft with hydrogen, has folded after burning through about $100 million in investor capital. The Seattle Times is reporting the company sent a memo to shareholders on Thursday saying there was no way forward for the...

www.avweb.com

 

[Scott Kenny]

Hydrogen atoms, in all their forms, are smaller than the metal or plastic atoms of the tank that contains it, or the pipes and valves that distribute it. Hydrogen will ALWAYS escape... is that we will never learn the lesson of Hindenburg?

You do know that it wasn't the hydrogen that started the fire, right?

Did it aggravate the fire? sure. But the cause of the fire was the aluminum powder in the cellulose dope on the fabric covering the envelope.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

You do know that it wasn't the hydrogen that started the fire, right?

Did it aggravate the fire? sure. But the cause of the fire was the aluminum powder in the cellulose dope on the fabric covering the envelope.

Scott
You do know Hydrogen has an enormous flammable range (4-75%) with air and an ignition energy (0.017 mJ) that is below that of a visible spark?

Silver dope even with iron additives comes no where close as a hazard. To conclude with such confidence that the benign stuff caused the fire is just … it’s a myth put out by hydrogen dreamers.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Scott
You do know Hydrogen has an enormous flammable range (4-75%) with air and an ignition energy (0.017 mJ) that is below that of a visible spark.

Silver dope even with iron additives comes no where close as a hazard. To conclude with such confidence that the benign stuff caused the fire is just … it’s a myth put out by hydrogen dreamers.

Those are the explosive limits, not the flammable range. Hindenburg didn't suffer a detonation, it burned.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

No Hydrogen in air doesn’t detonate, it deflagrates…. So it’s flammability limits, not explosive limits.

(hydrogen and oxygen will detonate but not hydrogen air)

https://www.aiche.org/sites/default/files/docs/pages/the_elemental_-_hydrogen_flammability.pdf

NASA Space Shuttle flared off tons of excess hydrogen as a result of loading loss.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Those are the explosive limits, not the flammable range. Hindenburg didn't suffer a detonation, it burned.

It burned

 

[Scott Kenny]

It burned

And that's a completely different situation to a hydrogen powered airship or airplane.

 

[quellish]

Scott
You do know Hydrogen has an enormous flammable range (4-75%) with air and an ignition energy (0.017 mJ) that is below that of a visible spark?

Silver dope even with iron additives comes no where close as a hazard. To conclude with such confidence that the benign stuff caused the fire is just … it’s a myth put out by hydrogen dreamers.

Hydrogen burns transparent, ie no visible flames.