Archibald was quoting Purpletrouble.The “stick TSR2 avionics in Vulcan” is almost depressing in it’s complete lack of appreciation of reality.
[...]
I strongly suspect anyone suggesting “just add this platform’s bits to that platform” has never done anything more complex with those platforms than build airfix models of them!
The critical factors are weight and space, and the space being in the right places.
Sure. But the fact they looked at moving it from the 100,000lb XF-108 to the 40,000lb F-106 suggests there could be more flexibility than Archibald implies.
View attachment 634276
They did add a 5' stretch IIRC to the front end of that F-106. But it was, apparently, a pretty straight forward mod. Then there was the idea of putting the APG-65 in the F-16.The critical factors are weight and space, and the space being in the right places.
Sure. But the fact they looked at moving it from the 100,000lb XF-108 to the 40,000lb F-106 suggests there could be more flexibility than Archibald implies.
View attachment 634276
The F-106 had the right space in the right places. You could fit all the black boxes in without having to redesign the airframe, suggesting (if you will) that the system was undersized for the F-108.
In the context of fitting AI.18 or AI.23 the P1121 can reference it's heritage from 1103 which had AI.18 or continue with AI.23 as was intended.
The volume and weight margins are there for AI.23 with potential for more. Either additional components for Blue Parrot capability or for added illuminator function. Illumination seems solved by the 60's. Hence more Radar Red Top offered at that time.
Plenty of room for other avionics. LABS etc....
AI.23 'as is' fitted into tiny spaces in Lightning. P1121 had lots of space in the nose, and frankly the whole section ahead of the inlet seems to be a discrete unit......with implication that redesign of this whole unit is possible.
If they reuse the 1103 front end they can fit something as large as AI.18 with a 30 inch diameter dish. So no need for complete redesign of entire forward half of the aircraft.AI.23 'as is' fitted into tiny spaces in Lightning. P1121 had lots of space in the nose, and frankly the whole section ahead of the inlet seems to be a discrete unit......with implication that redesign of this whole unit is possible.
Indeed, my train of thought would be to switch to lateral, 'Mirage' (or P.1129)-style half-cone intakes, and then the entire forward fuselage could be deepened, plenty of room for avionics / weapons, also, no loss of space in a two-seat variant . . .
cheers,
Robin.
Original F4 was designed for 24" diameter dish system.In the context of fitting AI.18 or AI.23 the P1121 can reference it's heritage from 1103 which had AI.18 or continue with AI.23 as was intended.
The volume and weight margins are there for AI.23 with potential for more. Either additional components for Blue Parrot capability or for added illuminator function. Illumination seems solved by the 60's. Hence more Radar Red Top offered at that time.
Plenty of room for other avionics. LABS etc....
Consider the nose of the original F4H Phantom II with the F-4J.
View attachment 634280
View attachment 634281
They did add a 5' stretch IIRC to the front end of that F-106. But it was, apparently, a pretty straight forward mod. Then there was the idea of putting the APG-65 in the F-16.The critical factors are weight and space, and the space being in the right places.
Sure. But the fact they looked at moving it from the 100,000lb XF-108 to the 40,000lb F-106 suggests there could be more flexibility than Archibald implies.
View attachment 634276
The F-106 had the right space in the right places. You could fit all the black boxes in without having to redesign the airframe, suggesting (if you will) that the system was undersized for the F-108.
View attachment 634279
Where there's a will there's usually a way (within limits).
What was the common factor in these “put bits in something else” success??? oh yes, it was that they were from the same generation so you had a reasonable chance.
Not the sillyness of trying to put stuff into previous generations ala TSR2 into Vulcan.
Be more specific. What are you trying to say? There are tons of examples of successful upgrades, mods, and retrofits. I'd go so far as to say, "it can't be done" is a rarity.That it doesn’t normally go well when people try for good engineering reasons but which tend to be overlooked or ignored by those in comfy chairs, be they amateurs or supposed professionals!
oh yes, it was that they were from the same generation so you had a reasonable chance.
They did add a 5' stretch IIRC to the front end of that F-106. But it was, apparently, a pretty straight forward mod.
You'd probably have to do like China did with the J-8 and do a completely different nose.They did add a 5' stretch IIRC to the front end of that F-106. But it was, apparently, a pretty straight forward mod.
It could be argued that stretching the nose of P.1121 to fit in a slightly larger radar or an illuminator or what have you would have been equally possible. But it would be a different question with a Lightning.
At that stage it's fair to say that you don't have a MiG-21 any more. Terms like "inspired by" and "developed from" get bandied around.You'd probably have to do like China did with the J-8 and do a completely different nose.
They didn't have a MiG-21 at the beginning either. That's a twin-engined aircraft.At that stage it's fair to say that you don't have a MiG-21 any more. Terms like "inspired by" and "developed from" get bandied around.You'd probably have to do like China did with the J-8 and do a completely different nose.
Errr not really.You'd probably have to do like China did with the J-8 and do a completely different nose.They did add a 5' stretch IIRC to the front end of that F-106. But it was, apparently, a pretty straight forward mod.
It could be argued that stretching the nose of P.1121 to fit in a slightly larger radar or an illuminator or what have you would have been equally possible. But it would be a different question with a Lightning.
View attachment 634284
View attachment 634285
Errr not really.You'd probably have to do like China did with the J-8 and do a completely different nose.They did add a 5' stretch IIRC to the front end of that F-106. But it was, apparently, a pretty straight forward mod.
It could be argued that stretching the nose of P.1121 to fit in a slightly larger radar or an illuminator or what have you would have been equally possible. But it would be a different question with a Lightning.
View attachment 634284
View attachment 634285
You see from the inlet which is the same for P1103,P P1116, P1123 and the final P1121 twin seater to the exhaust nozzle is the same for P1121 original to P1121 final offering. What changes is the section ahead of the inlet.
Because the nose gear is under the inlet, the whole section from cockpit to nose is something alterable.
Anything “can be done”. Of course it can, well, bar the laws of physics (“Jim”). And even they can be bent with some ingenuity and/or a lot of money.Be more specific. What are you trying to say? There are tons of examples of successful upgrades, mods, and retrofits. I'd go so far as to say, "it can't be done" is a rarity.That it doesn’t normally go well when people try for good engineering reasons but which tend to be overlooked or ignored by those in comfy chairs, be they amateurs or supposed professionals!
I recall one component was expected to need 'the arm of a giant with the hand of a child' to get at.
I used to teach about updates by making students crawl under a Tornado and stick their heads into Zone 19. The horror, the horror.
It’s the “should it be done” that is where “yes” becomes the rarity.
Just off the top of my head engineering reasons: power supplies, CG balancing, EMI/EMC, structural interactions such as vibration/heat (self and external), software, integration with existing and retained equipment, fire, damage and failure considerations and so on all day long. The detail of stuff that whilst a bit of kit X from platform Y has been put on platform Z, it comes with a host of maintenance and operational issues - most of which are not publicised.
P1121 does not look like the worst offender for complexity, but wires and cooling etc. are a nightmare for most aircraft.