Copy,FYI, the "4246-C (" above for the Ryan artwork is the "photo negative" number and has nothing at all to do with the Ryan Model Number (if there is any, considering that this is concept art).
Is there a better way to ID that concept?
Copy,FYI, the "4246-C (" above for the Ryan artwork is the "photo negative" number and has nothing at all to do with the Ryan Model Number (if there is any, considering that this is concept art).
I have my suspicions, but not definitively at this time.Copy,
Is there a better way to ID that concept?
Some of those from my site: http://acme-engineering.nl/curious/Lampyridae.htmSome additional info here
Nor a complete list, but...
U-2 RAINBOW (1957)
T-33A PASSPORT VISA (1958)
A-12 OXCART (1962)
SR-71 EARNING (1964)
AQUILINE (1970)
HAVE BLUE (1977)
SENIOR PROM ATCM (1980)
F-117A SENIOR TREND (1981)
TACIT BLUE (1982)
B-2 (1989)
Model 151 ARES (1990)
YF-23 (1990)
AGM-137 TSSAM (1992)
YF-22 (1990)
RQ-3A DarkStar (1995)
YF-118G Bird of Prey (1996)
X-36 (1997)
F-22A (1997)
X-35 (2000)
X-32 (2000)
X-45A (2002)
X-47A (2003)
P-170 Sentinel (2005)
P-175 Polecat (2005)
F-35 (2006)
RQ-180 (2010)
X-47B (2011)
Phantom Ray (2011)
B-21 Raider (2023)
Why would this T-33 be on the list? (I am not familiar with it)Nor a complete list, but...
U-2 RAINBOW (1957)
T-33A PASSPORT VISA (1958)
A-12 OXCART (1962)
SR-71 EARNING (1964)
AQUILINE (1970)
HAVE BLUE (1977)
SENIOR PROM ATCM (1980)
F-117A SENIOR TREND (1981)
TACIT BLUE (1982)
B-2 (1989)
Model 151 ARES (1990)
YF-23 (1990)
AGM-137 TSSAM (1992)
YF-22 (1990)
RQ-3A DarkStar (1995)
YF-118G Bird of Prey (1996)
X-36 (1997)
F-22A (1997)
X-35 (2000)
X-32 (2000)
X-45A (2002)
X-47A (2003)
P-170 Sentinel (2005)
P-175 Polecat (2005)
F-35 (2006)
RQ-180 (2010)
X-47B (2011)
Phantom Ray (2011)
B-21 Raider (2023)
https://airandspace.si.edu/explore/researchers/projects/horten-ho-229-v3-preservation/stealthy#:~:text=In his later life, Reimar,decades ahead of its time.Why would this T-33 be on the list? (I am not familiar with it)
Why would ARES be on this list? It's on my personal list just for it being a cool little flying gun.
Why would this T-33 be on the list? (I am not familiar with it)
This aircraft was originally designed as a high-altitude bomber. The specification called for an aircraft capable of flying over the British Chain Home defences broadcasting on the 25 MHz band, the aircraft was not expected to be undetectable but by the time it was detected it would be too late for interceptors to reach it.https://airandspace.si.edu/explore/researchers/projects/horten-ho-229-v3-preservation/stealthy#:~:text=In his later life, Reimar,decades ahead of its time.
Please explain how the National Air and Space museum is wrong? Note that everything above and below this line is from the museum and I have given them the credit. So why are you deleting this and claiming that I am responsible for what the museum has said?
Is it Stealthy?
In his later life, Reimar Horten promoted the idea that the Horten Ho 229 V3 was intended to be built as a stealth aircraft, which would have placed this jet’s design several decades ahead of its time. Reimar Horten claimed that he wanted to add charcoal to the adhesive layers of the plywood skin of the production model to render it invisible to radar, because the charcoal “should diffuse radar beams, and make the aircraft invisible on radar” (Horten and Selinger 1983). This statement was published in his 1983 co-authored book Nurflugel (which translates as “only the wing”). While this statement refers to the never-made production model, it seems possible that the experimental charcoal addition could have been used on the Horten Ho 229 V3 prototype. The mere mention of early stealth technology sparked the imagination of aircraft enthusiasts across the world and spurred vibrant debate within the aviation community.
The stealth myth has been growing since the 1980s and was invigorated when the National Geographic Channel, in collaboration with Northrup Grumman, produced a documentary called "Hitler's Stealth Fighter" in 2009. The program featured the Horten Ho 229 V3 as a potential "Wonder Weapon" that arrived too late in the war to be used (Myth Merchant Films, 2009). The documentary also referred to the jet's storage location as "a secret government warehouse," which added to the mystique of this artifact. Since the airing of the documentary, public pressure has increased to remove the jet from its so-called secret government warehouse and put it on display. In fact, this secret warehouse is the Museum's Paul E. Garber Facility in Suitland, Maryland where a team of conservators, material scientists, a curator, and aircraft mechanic has been evaluating the aircraft.
In such attacks, delaying detection was very important, and the use of RAM materials would surely have been useful.
From WikipediaIf the RAM materials worked. Charcoal isn't particularly good RAM, and the means to develop and produce useful RAM did not come until the late 1950s.
When Northrop tested a model of the Horten on their RCS range they found the frontal RCS to be 4dBsm less than a Bf-109 at CHAIN HOME frequencies. They did not model the inlets or turbines (and cockpit?), so take that as you will.
There also existed an antiradar painting for airplanes, the ‘Schornsteinfeger’ developed in the BHF (Hochfrequenzinstitut) of Travemünde. A radar camouflage material consisting of a thick bituminous paint heavily loaded with carbon. When applied in thickness carefully calculated in relation to the radar frequency the arriving signal would be trapped within the dielectric material and its return energy damped out and transformed itself in heat. The painting was more efficient if applied over non-metallic structures predecessors of the current composite materials.https://airandspace.si.edu/explore/researchers/projects/horten-ho-229-v3-preservation/stealthy#:~:text=In his later life, Reimar,decades ahead of its time.
Please explain how the National Air and Space museum is wrong? Note that everything above and below this line is from the museum and I have given them the credit. So why are you deleting this and claiming that I am responsible for what the museum has said?
Is it Stealthy?
In his later life, Reimar Horten promoted the idea that the Horten Ho 229 V3 was intended to be built as a stealth aircraft, which would have placed this jet’s design several decades ahead of its time. Reimar Horten claimed that he wanted to add charcoal to the adhesive layers of the plywood skin of the production model to render it invisible to radar, because the charcoal “should diffuse radar beams, and make the aircraft invisible on radar” (Horten and Selinger 1983). This statement was published in his 1983 co-authored book Nurflugel (which translates as “only the wing”). While this statement refers to the never-made production model, it seems possible that the experimental charcoal addition could have been used on the Horten Ho 229 V3 prototype. The mere mention of early stealth technology sparked the imagination of aircraft enthusiasts across the world and spurred vibrant debate within the aviation community.
The stealth myth has been growing since the 1980s and was invigorated when the National Geographic Channel, in collaboration with Northrup Grumman, produced a documentary called "Hitler's Stealth Fighter" in 2009. The program featured the Horten Ho 229 V3 as a potential "Wonder Weapon" that arrived too late in the war to be used (Myth Merchant Films, 2009). The documentary also referred to the jet's storage location as "a secret government warehouse," which added to the mystique of this artifact. Since the airing of the documentary, public pressure has increased to remove the jet from its so-called secret government warehouse and put it on display. In fact, this secret warehouse is the Museum's Paul E. Garber Facility in Suitland, Maryland where a team of conservators, material scientists, a curator, and aircraft mechanic has been evaluating the aircraft.
Which specification? What RCS values did they want to achieve? Over what aspects? Frequencies? etc.The specification called for an aircraft capable of flying over the British Chain Home defences broadcasting on the 25 MHz band, the aircraft was not expected to be undetectable but by the time it was detected it would be too late for interceptors to reach it.
Any source for this? I'd like to know moreUS trials using a RAM. covered Lockheed T-33
Because there isn't anything! At any rate, it does 'foreshadow' which is fine. But I view it as outside the core stealth history. Just a fun look-a-like.Which specification? What RCS values did they want to achieve? Over what aspects? Frequencies? etc.
From what's available then there doesn't seem anything that links Ho 229 with "stealth" before the 80s
I'm hoping by compiling a timeline of all these we could shed light on what connections may be out there. Or at least common origin points. MBB Lampyridae for example maybe came from German engineers reaching the same conclusion as Skunk Works engineers after reading a certain paper.Was there any connection between the US trials using a RAM. covered Lockheed T-33, project 'Passport Visa' (followed by a RAM. covered U-2) and the Plessey DX.3 X-band coating material trialled on a Balliol and Canberra airframe ?
Why would this T-33 be on the list? (I am not familiar with it)
Why would ARES be on this list? It's on my personal list just for it being a cool little flying gun.
Fair enough, I think then by my criteria I'll leave ARES off for now (this list anyways). I have long wanted to model ARES anyways though so probably will still make it. But that is a different topic!Altogether, 21 of the aircraft on my list came from a graphic that listed LO aircraft in chronological order from 1957 (U-2 with RAINBOW treatments) to 2014 (unspecified, classified LO Platform). I was happy to see the PASSPORT VISA modified T-33A as that program doesn't get a lot of love. The Model 151 ARES was as much of a surprise to me as it was to you, but it was on the list. The graphic was created by the classified CTF that worked on the unspecified 2014 platform.
Any source for this? I'd like to know more
There are some declassified CIA documents, but a name like PASSPORT VISA makes searching rather difficult. Project pilots included Gus Grissom and Larry McClain. I first learned about this project from Larry, who said it was his first assignment after graduating from the USAF Test Pilot School.Any source for this? I'd like to know more
I have no data on an official specification of the RLM, the only reference to this is a meeting between Göring and the aircraft manufacturers (Karinhall Mach 18, 1943) complaining that the industry had failed to comply with the Schnellbomber specification of October 20, 1942 (1,000 kg payload, a penetration depth of 1,046 km -one third of the operational range- and a top speed of 700 km/h, later on increased to 1,000 km/h, at operational altitude). After this conference, different projects of fast jet bombers began to appear with flying wing configuration with a combat ceiling and max speed superior to any piston fighter of the Allies, designed for horizontal bombing at high altitude (46,000 ft).Which specification? What RCS values did they want to achieve? Over what aspects? Frequencies? etc.
From what's available then there doesn't seem anything that links Ho 229 with "stealth" before the 80s
What about the U-2 Trapeze and Wallpaper projects?
Early images of the U-2 spy aircraft being tested at Area 51
Photos, details, and history about the CIA's secret Area 51 testing facility and the U-2 spy planes developed there are showcased in a newly declassified report.www.cnet.com
I got you, page 6 for an unfortunately poor image of the PASSPORT VISA. I've found little else myself.There are some declassified CIA documents, but a name like PASSPORT VISA makes searching rather difficult. Project pilots included Gus Grissom and Larry McClain. I first learned about this project from Larry, who said it was his first assignment after graduating from the USAF Test Pilot School.
PASSIVE ECM COMMITTEE
On 6 September 1957, the Lincoln Lab team had a chance to compare their work on electronic countermeasures (ECM) with that of the Defense Department. The meeting is interesting both for what was said and what was not said. George Valley, associate director of Lincoln headed the committee, which was attended by Air Force Colonels Appold, Nunziato, and Lewis, a Commander Peterson and a Doctor Wright of the Navy, and by Rodgers, Bazemore, and Butman, from Lincoln. The Air Force and, to a lesser extent, the Navy were funding a variety of radar camouflage development efforts by both industry and academia, in both the U.S. and Europe. The Air Force presented work at seven different institutions. Gaetano Latmiral, at the University of Naples, was trying to derive the properties of a material that would give a 20 dB reduction at X band. The University of Goettingen was studying resonant and magnetic dipole absorbers. Brooklyn Polytechnic was studying lossless dielectrics and resistive sheets for layered absorbers. Bjorksten Research Laboratories, in Madison, Wisconsin, were looking at magnetic materials in a dielectric matrix. Deutsche Magnesit, in Munich, had developed a multilayer painted-on absorber; with a thickness of only 2 mm, tests showed 95% absorption at 9.3 GHz (X band). Battelle Memorial Institute was also trying to find ways to reduce the RCS of aircraft at lower frequencies. Emerson and Cuming seem to have made the most progress, having developed an absorbent material embedded in a plastic honeycomb. A 1-in.-thick layer of this material was showing 95% absorption at frequencies from 2.5 to 13 GHz (S and X bands). This was so promising that it was planned for application to a T-33 for flight tests, in a program that became known a PASSPORT VISA. (The PASSPORT VISA flight tests eventually began in late 1958. One of the test pilots was Virgil I. “Gus” Grissom, later a Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo astronaut and the second American in space [33].)
Thanks. I keep hoping somebody has a copy of Skip Holm's 1985 magazine article on the first flight of the U-2 that had extensive use of the radio log between Tony Levier and Kelly Johnson. I was 12 and was instantly hooked on stories of aerospace engineering on the edge by these really skilled and driven people far from home, unable to talk about their work. Quite a few only had a handful of years to be given the the satisfaction their work being publicly acknowledged before passing. And then only partially.An excellent find tacitblue1973, and incredibly interesting read too.
I got you, page 6 for an unfortunately poor image of the PASSPORT VISA. I've found little else myself.
First place to look which is why I never saw it before haha. Thanks!"Test Outline for Passport Visa"
TRANSMITTAL OF REPORT | CIA FOIA (foia.cia.gov)
www.cia.gov
"Test Outline for Passport Visa"
TRANSMITTAL OF REPORT | CIA FOIA (foia.cia.gov)
www.cia.gov