Here we go again: my own take at a surviving CF-105 Arrow timeline

[Archibald]

Avro Canada submitted a bid to a Canadian requirement, like any other aviation company. They had a lot of irons in the fire. The company expanded aggressively, with all profits reinvested in Canada.

My french brain just can't understand how you british and canadian were married, I mean aerospace-wise. Seems that the remnants of Avro Canada were taken over by a... canadian Hawker Siddeley.

Hawker Siddeley Canada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So ok... Avro Canada grew a little independant (but not too much) from H.S between 1945 and 1959 (62, actually) then Hawker Siddeley stroke back after 1962.

Looks like Blackburn tendered the Buccaneer for the RCAF competition won by the CF-104. I'm wondering if Blue Parrot could find its way into the Arrow - although that might be a little embarrassing for the nascent TSR-2. The Buccaneer was already a major thorn in the flesh (polite words here - they had no IGNORE button, which is a very practical device on this forum) for the RAF and TSR-2.

 

[Archibald]

since
- Avro Canada related to Hawker Siddeley GB (to the point they rebranded avro canada assets HS Canada OTL after 1962)
- Blackburn made a Buccaneer bid to RCAF for the CF-104

I'm tempted to make the Arrow H.S fighter and light bomber for the 60's (just to piss of EE BAC and the Gvt TSR-2 HS lost in 1958).

It completes the 1127 and 1154 with a non VSTOL machine.

HS bids an Arrow with AIRPASS III and Blue Parrot in 1959 and get an RCAF order in place of OTL CF-104. Germany however already picked the F104G in 11/1958 so Europe follows as per OTL: the Arrow is too expensive for them.

 

[zen]

I have to say that if one wants a uk sourced AI set with look down capability AI.18 is the only game in town for the early to mid 60's.

But if you want multirole, then AI.23 is a better bet.

But I wonder if elements of the avionics from the V-Bombers might fit the Arrow for a high altitude strike system.

 

[Archibald]

I'm not sure how BAC and the british governement would react if Hawker Siddeley bid the Arrow with the Bucc Blue Parrot to Australia in 1962-63 against the TSR-2 ? do you think they would block the radar sale since TSR-2 had the same ?
in this case Dassault could give it a try in place of their OTL Mirage IV.

 

[zen]

I don't think the UK would block a bid containing UK systems to Australia. After all the UK tried to sell the Lightning and even dome V-Bombers to the Australians.

 

[Archibald]

As impressive as it was was the Arrow range was between 1200 and 1500 miles, probably not enough to reach Jakarta. Even then, the trick is to await the TSR-2 unavoidable demise in 1965 - and then jump into the fire, along with Jaguar, AFVG, UKVG, Tornado, F-111, Buccaneer and Phantom options.

There is also the case of South Africa who bought Buccaneers. SAAF Arrows would be insanely cool, particularly in the light of the 70's and 80's brush wars. OTL SAAF Mirage IIIs and Mirage F1s had hard times catching MiG-23s; the Arrow would be an entirely different matter. Plus all the Cheetah derivatives... and the connection with Israel... itself connected to the Iran Shah before 1979.

Whatever happens, by 1965 Arrow production numbers would include two batches of a hundred of aircraft:
- the Mk.2 interceptors with the F-106 radar and missiles
- followed by the Mk.3 optimized for strike with the Bucc radar, another hundred in place of the 200+ CF-104s.
- Fact is that the choice of the CF-5 by 1967 was even more absurd than the others and most importantly, larger aircraft were considered, up to Phantom size again. Who knows, maybe a smaller, third batch of Arrows could happen, perhaps 50 machines.

On the French side there is no budget for something as big as the Arrow (the Mirage IV was extremely specialized), it boils down to SNECMA getting an Iroquois engine, a Mirage III Iroquois testbed, and perhaps a Mirage IV demonstrator with the analog FBW, later related to Concorde. An Arrow as a chase plane for Concorde past 1969 would be completely awesome.

 

[Apophenia]

My french brain just can't understand how you british and canadian were married, I mean aerospace-wise. Seems that the remnants of Avro Canada were taken over by a... canadian Hawker Siddeley ...

Umm, not really. Hawker Siddeley Aircraft was a British firm. Hawker Siddeley bought state-owned Victory Aircraft in 1945 (probably because Victory had been building Avro products ... another HSA subsidiary. So, it was HS that created A.V. Roe Canada Ltd in the first place. By the time Avro Canada tanked, the British 'parent' firm had become the Hawker Siddeley Group.

As for a British/Canadian 'marriage' in the aviation industry, not so strange for a Commonwealth member. On the other hand, Canadair (Canadian Vickers until 1944) was bought postwar by an American firm Electric Boat (when Canadair and EB merged in 1952, they formed General Dynamics - a US company). Canadair stayed that way until it became a Crown Corporation again in 1976.

 

[Archibald]

Geez...

Hawker Siddeley Canada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Founded in 1962

In a sense this is wrong, since Avro and Hawker Siddeley were already related before, even before 1945. I mean that H.S did not discovered the agonizing Avro Canada out of the blue to buy the assets.

Canadian Vickers

Eureka ! It was the canadian branch of Vickers - the british aircraft company ? How about that. I had never quite understood where did Canadair come from. I thought it was Canada 100% national company, independant from GB. Wrong.

Is there somewhere a list of the canadian branches of British aircraft makers ? it would be interesting for alt-history purpose. Some of these branches really grew large, others faded. It is hard to track which one was related to another.
So far I can think of
Vickers
Avro
De Havilland

 

[Hood]

Hawker Siddeley Canada's formation in 1962 was to provide structure for the Hawker Siddeley Group's Canadian investments; A.V. Roe Canada, Canadian Car and Foundry (CC&F) and the Dominion Steel and Coal Corporation.

As I pointed out in the rationalisation thread, Hawker Siddeley after the 1956-57 changes in the British aircraft industry went to town buying up assets in Canada to help them diversify, also in Britain with the Brush company. Hawker Siddeley's name lives on today resulting from that diversification. Hawker Siddeley Switchgear was created in 1991 (a year before Hawker Siddeley ended) from its subsidiaries South Wales Switchgear Ltd. and Brush Switchgear, That company and its Australian subsidiary, Hawker Siddeley Switchgear Australia, still survive to carry on the name.

 

[Archibald]

I / we tend to forget that H.S was not only aviation but diversified to survive... Dassault too tried his hand at some surprising areas you have no idea. For example, our beloved Sophie Marceau is a side effect / byproduct of Dassault diversifying into... movies. La Boum (nothing explosive bar Sophie, la Boum meaning The party) that revealed her in 1982 was a movie produced by Tonton Marcel Dassault. Family movie, he wanted. Fine. Luckily for him he did not lived long enough to see Sophie diversifying in arty, and... hotter movies (Zulawski, you old pig...)

 

[Apophenia]

... So far I can think of
Vickers
Avro
De Havilland

You've got them all.

Canadian Vickers Limited aircraft division was formed in 1923 to build 6 x British Vickers Viking IV flying boats. Canadian Vickers then produced a range of indigenous designs but most their production was license-builds. One unrealized wartime project was production of licensed Grumman F6F-1 Hellcats (assigned BuAer designation FV-1 but then cancelled in 1943).

Canadair Limited was formed as a Crown Corporation in Nov 1944 to allow Canadian Vickers to focus on wartime shipbuilding. As noted before, Canadair Limited was bought by Electric Boat in Sept 1946 before becoming part of General Dynamics in 1952. In 1976, the GoC re-acquired Canadair as a Crown Corporation. In 1986, Canadair was sold to Bombardier.

De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Limited was formed in 1928 to assemble and support DH products in Canada before designing and building its own designs. The take-overs and mergers are a little convoluted so I'll break them down by date.

1960: DHC becomes part of the Hawker Siddeley Group PLC
1974: Government of Canada (GoC) buys DHC from HS Group
- GoC felt HSG wasn't properly supporting the Dash 7 programme
1986: Boeing buys DHC, become Boeing Canada, de Havilland Division
1989: Boeing offers profitless DHC division for sale again
1991: EC blocks ATR purchase offer for DHC from Boeing
1992: DHC sold to Bombardier (with Gov't of Ontario support)
- Bombardier Aerospace de Havilland Division
2006: Bombardier sells DHC rights* to Viking Air Ltd
- * To DHC-1 through DHC-7 lines but not to the DHC-8
2018: Longview Aviation Capital buys Dash 8 programme
- Longview is the parent company of Viking Air Ltd
2019: Longview launches de Havilland Aircraft Co. of Canada

Avro Canada's lineage is a little more complex. A host of WW2-era Canadian aircraft (or aircraft component) makers were divisions of railway equipment firms: Canadian Car & Foundry Company Limited (CCF or CanCar); National Steel Car Corporation; and the smaller Ottawa Car Manufacturing Company.

All three railway companies' aircraft divisions later became part of Canadian Associated Aircraft Limited - a consortium organized to produce bombers in Canada (first the Handley Page Hampden, then other unrealized projects for 140 x Short Stirling Mk.IIs, replaced in plans by the Handley Page Halifax, then 200 x Martin Marauders for the RCAF, and finally Avro Lancasters).

To build Lancaster B.Mk.Xs, the Canadian government expropriated the poorly-run National Steel Car plant at Malton, ON, and formed Victory Aircraft Limited on 05 Nov 1942. You already know about the postwar transition from Victory Aircraft to Avro Canada.

BTW, the bomber consortium and Victory Aircraft had a number of unrealized projects during WW2.

Planned wartime bomber production in Canada:
- Bréguet Br 695: National Steel Car, x ??
-- Intended for the French, UK AirMin tried to thwart, shelved Oct 1939
- Short Stirling Mk.II: Canadian Associated Aircraft, x 140
-- Intended to replace Hampden on prod'n lines, cancelled Dec 1940
- Handley Page Halifax: Canadian Associated Aircraft, x ??
-- Dec 1940, replaced Stirling in plans, cancelled early 1941
- Martin Marauder: CAA/National Steel Car (for RCAF), x ~200
-- Early 1941 plan, project cancelled by DMS in November 1941
- Avro Lancaster: CAA/National Steel Car (& orig. CCF), x 300
-- First Lancaster contract, led to spring 1942 GoC take-over
- Avro Lincoln B.Mk.XV: Victory Aircraft, x 100, cancelled Aug 1945
-- 1 x 'job-creation' pattern Lincoln finally completed in Oct 1945

Immediate postwar Victory Aircraft designs included:
- Project 7: 5+48 pax high-winged transport aircraft
-- Project 7: 4 x 2,000 hp (??) radials, span 44.20 m
- Project 9: 4+33 inter-city/transcontinental airliner
-- Project 9: Lancaster components with new fuselage


Realized wartime bomber production in Canada:
- Bristol Bolingbroke: Fairchild Aircraft Ltd.
- Avro Lancaster B.Mk.X: Victory Aircraft, x 422
- Avro Lancaster XPP: Victory Aircraft, x 8
-- Pre-dating Lancastrian, orig. with Victory/TCA
- Avro York (Canadian): Victory Aircraft, x 1
-- York FM400 first flew Nov 1944, no RCAF orders

I am, of course omitting flying boat/amphibian patrol bombers (Supermarine Stranraer plus Canadian Vickers- and Boeing Canada-built Catalinas/Cansos) and light recce types (Canadian Vickers-built Northrop Deltas, National Steel Car-built Westland Lysanders, etc.).

Actually, the Bolingbroke brings up the subject is US subsidiaries and their Canadian buds. Fairchild Aircraft Ltd became entirely Canadian-owned soley so that the Longueuil firm could build the British Bolingbroke.

 

[Archibald]

Thank you Apophenia. Must have given you many headaches, how convoluted is that.

Breguet 695, how about that, makes sense, they had U.S engines.

 

[Archibald]

The TL so far

- April 1912 Crawford Gordon mother does not survives Titanic sinking

- 1955 Decision is taken to stick with MX-1179 from F-106 plus Falcon missiles. RCAF accepts but insists over a 40-inch disk and order Avro Canada to dimension the Arrow nose accordingly. Hughes however refuses as the F-101, F-102 and F-106 noses and radar dishes are far smaller, making a 40-inch antenna an expensive one shot. An agreement is found for the smaller dish.

- 1956: RCA licence-build MA-1 proves more reliables than Hughes, triggering a major shakedown, uproar and scandal there. To the point that a "reverse transfer" is considered, RCA delivering radars to Convair in place of Hughes ! This place RCA in a position of strength against Hughes and negociations for the 40-inch antenna start again.

- June 1957: political shift. Production numbers cut to 100 as auxiliary air force can't fly Arrows. U.S concernes about SAGE and NORAD are aliviated thanks to RCA good job above, and commonality between F-106 and CF-105 radars and missiles.

- 1957, October 4 CF-105 roll-out

- 1958, March 25: CF-105 25-201 first flight

- October Orenda-SNECMA agreement for tech transfer & licence-build Iroquois, plus 1 Mirage III testbed and eventually, engines for the Mirage IVB

- in a stunning move, Hughes asks Avro Canada to loan them one of the J75 powered prototypes to test the AN/ASG-18. Initial choice was a B-58 Hustler but several factors played against it - high accident rates, and the lack of a payload bay large enough to carry the AIM-47 Falcon missile. At 13 ft long the missile fits into the Arrow 17 ft long missile bay. Crucially, that old 40-inch debate has proven fruitful: coincidentally, the ASG-18 antenna is 40-inch, too !

- February 23, 1959: Silvert Dart 50th anniversary. RL-206 is briefly rolled out, 99% complete. It will fly in May and attack height and speed records ASAP.

- June Le Bourget Airshow. RL-203 is ferried from Toronto via Gander, Thulé AFB, Shannon. Agreement with SNECMA over Iroquois is reinforced, Dassault shows interest in the Arrow, notably its FBW system.

- July RCAF shift to nuclear strike. CF-104 considered but countered by H.S Blackburn proposal of a AIRPASS III / Blue Parrot CF-105 (in place of an initial Buccaneer proposal). An order for 80 more Arrows (Mk.3) is place, production to be shared with Canadair.

- August: An Arrow breaks the symbolic 1500 mph and 100 000 ft bareers. Leaving the Sukhoi T-431, Ye-152, F-104, F-106 behind.

- September Mirage IVB canned, Mirage III-H (Huron, a pun on Iroquois and to the Seven Years War of 1760) confirmed.

- 1959-1960 CF-105 RL-208 plays havoc with OTL Phantom records in a titanic clash of giants that leaves the world breathless.

McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

- 1960 Hawker Siddeley, kicked out of OR-339 / TSR-2, starts pitching CF-105 Mk.3 to Australia and South Africa, possibly with complimentary Mirage III-H

- A very heavily modified Arrow RL-204 starts firing AIM-47s at QB-47s and QF-80s. It also tracks Titan and Atlas ballistic missiles (!!)

- 1961 Mirage III-H flies but faces severe tech issues: the Iroquois is just too big for the airframe to handle.

- 1962 Concorde agreement. Dassault and Avro Canada gets an agreement to fly a Mirage IV with FBW system. The Canadians are invited as a junior partner

- 1963: Australia rejects the Arrow Mk.3 but South Africa accepts it, 14 aircraft initially.

- 1964 with the first YF-12s flying RL-204 is retired... just as, in March, first MiG-25 (Ye-155) prototype flies.

 

[Archibald]

I managed to bring back an old pet peeve of mine. That is, Arrow as a ASG-18 / AIM-47 Falcon testbed (1958-63) and post-1967 a MiG-25 killer for Iran and Israel.
I didn't knew the RCAF wanted a 40-inch diameter antenna back in 1955. A diameter that coincidentally matches the ASG-18 !
Add that to Overscan interesting find about Hughes screwed MA-1s quality control. I imagined that RCA licence-build MA-1 would not be affected by Hughes idiot employees. In turn this place RCA in a position of strength against Hughes circa 1957.
The F-108 LRI program started in April 1957 but was canned in September 1959. The contract for a modified B-58 (later Snoopy) was inked on October 17, 1958, right in the middle of the CF-105 flight program. So I felt it would not be too much of stretch to get the AN/ASG-18 into an Arrow nose, although the radar was 2000 pounds in weight !
Next step was to check the Arrow weapon bay dimensions vs the AIM-47. bingo: the missile was 13 ft long, the Arrow bay was 16 to 18 ft in length. Two missiles could fit frontally, or even three (80 cm span vs 2.42 m wide: a very tight fit if not impossible !).

So by 1959-61 with the Iroquois birds flying RL-204 is send to Hughes and given a Pinocchio / Snoopy treatment and it starts firing AIM-47s at varied targets. This does not prevent YF-12 from happening, as its performance was far superior. By 1964 YF-12s starts flying and RL-204 is retired... yet in March 1964 flies the Ye-155, first MiG-25 prototype. By 1967 it is presented in Domodedovo along with the MiG-23; by 1971 the R variant is poking fun at Israeli (and Iranian) Phantoms trying to shoot it down. Making the ASG-18 Arrow all the more interesting...

Somewhere down the line (1965) Dassault and Avro team to bid a modified Arrow to Israel in place of - OTL Mirage F2 / Mirage IV / Sud-Aviation Tsyklon - Cyclone / Mirage V - proposals for long range strike.

 

[Michel Van]

What about this scenario were CF-105 get build ?

1918 German Empire win barely WW1
1926 The Great Strike in Britain labour, Party take over Government
The Balfour declaration establish the Commonwealth of Nation, but under minister Oswald Mosley with Free trade agreement
1931 The Status of Westminster new definition of Commonwealth
1932 Proposal of Lord Davis to establish with Commonwealth a international Air force as weapon of peace
1936 The Edward VIII Crisis: assassination attempt on King, the murder of Stanley Baldwin, the Agreement of York over reign Edward VIII.

1941-1946 Second Great War were Communist France and USSR attack German Empire and other European states also Britain
While Japan try to conquer Asia after preemptive strikes on Pearl Harbor and German Navy base in Pacific
Commonwealth of Nation sign the Defence Pakt to help each other against threat of Japanese Empire
1946 German Empire win the Second Great War by dropping there atomic bombs on enemies targets, shocking the USA and Great Britain
begin of age of Frozen Conflict between USA & Commonwealth of Nation against German Empire & capitalist China
1949 Antony Eden establish the Commonwealth of Nation Defence Treaty, replacing the Pact with NATO like structure.
common Weapon development for members for Atomic bomb, Jet-Bombers, missiles and fighter jets

1953 Canada proposed a improve supersonic Jet called CF-105 as backbone for Commonwealth Defence air force
1958 First prototype make it's flight
1959 Prime Minister of Canada John Diefenbaker try to cancel the project,
but gets phone call from British Ambassador and The Commonwealth Secretariat, "what to hell your thinking to intervene in Commonwealth Programs ?"
1960 The CF-105 Arrow enter service in Canada, Great Britain, Australia, India and Singapore, also export to other nations like caliphate of Arabia.
The aircraft serve as Interceptor and fighter against German Empire Messerschmitt Me-515 and Heinkel "Blitz 3" and Junkers Ju-552 bombers

in this scenario the CF-105 is counterpart of F-4 Phantom II

 

[Apophenia]

What about this scenario were CF-105 get build ?

Now that is an alternative timeline!

Here's a simpler one based on a different engine choice for the Arrow ...

The in-service USAF Convair F-102A was powered by a Pratt & Whitney J57-P-11 or '25 turbojet. This J57 produced 11,700 lbf (dry) and 17,200 lbf (reheat). It had a diameter of 39 inches (0.99 m) and a dry weight of 5,175 lbs (2,347 kg). Two higher-powered developments were studied.

The F-102B was to be powered by a Wright J67-W-4 (a US development of the Bristol B.E.10 Olympus) producing 21,000 lbf (dry) and 30,000 lbf (reheat). The J67 had a diameter of 40 inches (1.0 m, maximum diameter 55.2 inches or 1.40 m) and a dry weight of 7,600 lbs (3,447 kg). [1]

The F-102D was to be powered by an enlarged J57 development - the Pratt & Whitney J75. This turbojet was to produce 17,200 lb (dry) and 26,500 lb (reheat). The J75 had a diameter of 43 inches (1.092 m) and a dry weight of 5,960 lbs (2,706 kg).

Wright [2] had proven its J67 through the intermediate TJ-32B (J67-W-1) - a Bristol Olympus BOl.1/2A engine fitted with a Wright-designed afterburner. The J67-W-4 was an 'Americanized' development of the TJ-32B. However, Wright's previous foray into military turbojets had seen its J65 (a licensed Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire) lose out to Pratt's J57. [3] Lessons had been learned and it was do-or-die time for Wright engine building (an earlier shake-up of Wright management was meant to ensure success for the new J67 venture).

Wright had the advantage of a beginning with an established engine design. As a result, the USAF saw the F-102D with its less well-developed J75 as a back-up design. Between the two engines there was little to choose between. The J75 was lighter but less powerful than the J67. The latter also had a smaller average diameter making adaptation to the F-102 airframe appear simpler. In the end, the F-102B design powered by an evolved J67-W-6 turbojet was chosen for production as the Convair F-106 Delta Dart interceptor.

While F-102 development was being decided in the US, Avro Canada was weighing various engine options - the Rolls-Royce RB.106 Thames, the Bristol BOl.4 Olympus, or the Curtiss J67. As a backup, Avro Canada's Orenda Engines was developing its PS.13 Iroquois turbojet in roughly the same category as the Thames. However, Royce-Royce cancelled its RB.106 and Hawker Siddely Group management concluded that development of both a new engine and a highly-advanced fighter airframe was more than A.V. Roe Canada Ltd could cope with at the same time. The USAF's choice of the J67-W-6 for the F-102B/F-106 convinced the RCAF to standardize on the same engine type.

The prototype Avro Canada Arrow Mk. I flew on 25 March 1958 powered by two modified Wright J67-W-6 turbojets. The three following prototypes had similarly modified J67-W-6 engines. It was not until the first Arrow Mk. II (RL-205) that service-type engines - the Wright J67-W-11 (port) and J67-W-12 (starboard) - were mounted. Those remained standard engine types until the Arrow F.Mk.3 flew with Bristol Siddeley Olympus Mk 320 (B.Ol.22R) turbojets for the RAF. [4]

Despite the obvious promise of the Arrow, Prime Minister John Diefenbaker announced the project's cancellation on 20 February 1959. It was the Canadian Prime Minister's intention that all elements of the programme be scrapped - completed aircraft, production tooling, and technical data. However, pressure from NATO allies resulted in a reversal of that plan. Completed airframes were divided between the US (two F-105A test aircraft) and the UK (two Arrow F.Mk 1s and one F.Mk 2 going to RAE Boscombe Down for trials. All tooling was delivered to Avro Canada's US partner, Curtiss-Wright.

Agreements between Hawker Siddeley Group and Curtiss-Wright resulted in co-operation in re-establishing production of the Arrow. As a result, Curtiss-Wright commenced low-rate initial production at Buffalo, NY (LRIP F-105Bs being intended for USAF trial purposes), while HS Group began assembling Arrow F.Mk.3 interceptors for the RAF at its Avro Woodford plant (with some components coming from Avro Chadderton).

And where does it go from here? Does the Curtiss-Wright F-105 enter full USAF service in place of the F-110 Spectre? Does the RAF's Avro Arrow serve alongside the TSR.2, or does a 'Strike Arrow' emerge from Woodford? ...
_______________________________

[1] The J67-W-4 had great commonality with the slightly higher-performing J67-W-3 being developed for the USAF's Republic XF-103 interceptor. The internal corporate designation for the J67 was the Wright XRJ55.

[2] Properly, the Wright Aeronautical Division of the Curtiss-Wright Corporation.

[3] Wright's afterburning design for the J65 had failed to deliver its promised performance. Worse, the J65 was a full two years late coming into production. Pratt & Whitney had been able to capitalized on those Wright failures, with its J57 taking most of the potential sales for Wright's licensed Sapphire.

[4] The British-built Olympus Mk 320 had a slightly increased output of 22,000 lbs (dry) and 30,610 lbs (reheat).
_______________________________

 

[zen]

If the UK is building Arrows then it certainly could take the MRI mission instead of the Phantom II.
It might remove the high altitude and speed recce part of the TSR.2.

It also opens up the possibility of continued funding of AI and missile systems for the aircraft as an upgrade.
Arguably this kills the Tornado ADV.

The engine might end up in the TSR.2.....

Another thought is that the P1121 would benefit from this scenario on the engine side of things and as a 'cheap' compliment to the Arrow.

All of which strengthen Bristol against RR.......

 

[pathology_doc]

The engine might end up in the TSR.2.....

If the Arrow goes ahead as a UK/Canadian concern, there is no need for the TSR.2. The Arrow would be the MRCA in reverse; starts out as an interceptor/ADV with the low level strike variant evolving later - possibly late enough to benefit from the advent of laser and TV guided munitions.

Given what actually happened, it could be argued that relaxing F.155T to permit going with the Arrow - an actual Mach 2-capable airframe which was then currently flying - might have been the most intelligent thing for the British to have done. However, as so often happens, the best was the enemy of good enough. Committing to the Arrow to the point where cancellation was politically impossible gives breathing room to start talking about a British-sourced illuminator-capable radar and an all-British SARH/IR missile fit if you're not willing to go with Falcon. Either that or stick with RCA's version of Hughes's GWS and find a way to shoehorn Falcon's SARH seeker into Blue Jay's (i.e. Firestreak's, later Red Top's) airframe to take advantage of the proximity fuze and the much larger warhead.

 

[Archibald]

The engine might end up in the TSR.2.....

If the Arrow goes ahead as a UK/Canadian concern, there is no need for the TSR.2. The Arrow would be the MRCA in reverse; starts out as an interceptor/ADV with the low level strike variant evolving later - possibly late enough to benefit from the advent of laser and TV guided munitions.

Given what actually happened, it could be argued that relaxing F.155T to permit going with the Arrow - an actual Mach 2-capable airframe which was then currently flying - might have been the most intelligent thing for the British to have done. However, as so often happens, the best was the enemy of good enough. Committing to the Arrow to the point where cancellation was politically impossible gives breathing room to start talking about a British-sourced illuminator-capable radar and an all-British SARH/IR missile fit if you're not willing to go with Falcon. Either that or stick with RCA's version of Hughes's GWS and find a way to shoehorn Falcon's SARH seeker into Blue Jay's (i.e. Firestreak's, later Red Top's) airframe to take advantage of the proximity fuze and the much larger warhead.

lot of good points. I never really knew if the Arrow huge wing area of 114 sq meters would be an issue. The Mirage IV with 80 switched to low level without problems.

The Arrow 18ft long bay would be a very useful asset.
I checked Andrea Parsh Designation systems website and even the largest A2G missiles fits inside. Strap two huge drop tanks below the wings and keep the draggier A2G ordinance on the bay: even the Phantom couldn't do that. How large were F111 and TSR-2 bays ?

even a SRAM would fit http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-69.html

Somewhat absurdly, it is pretty difficult to find the TSR-2 bomb bay size on the Internet.
I found this

Bomb Bay sizes

Hi gents..don't know if this has been done..but I was wondering, with stealth and internal bays making a comeback, what the sizes were for different bomb bays

forum.keypublishing.com

Arrow bay size here https://forum.keypublishing.com/for...ons-and-possible-photos?p=2041451#post2041451

Dimensions were approximately: 3 ft deep, 8 ft wide and 18 ft long

At 8 ft wide and 18 ft long it was truly enormous. Not sure the TSR-2 bay was that wide: Red Beard and twin WE-177 amounts to barely 3 ft wide (90 cm). Yet it was slightly longer at 21 ft.

 

[Apophenia]

... Strap two huge drop tanks below the wings ...

Or go with Arrow Mk.4 style fixed underwing fuel pods incorporating a shorter/lighter main landing gear?

 

[Archibald]

(impersonation of Montgomery Burns voice)

Excellent !

 

[riggerrob]

In my AvRO Arrow wank, AvRO builds the first batch of CF-100 Canuck interceptors on time, then delivers a second, improved batch on time, etc CF-100s suffer fewer problems in service, ergo the USAF has no excuse to tell AvRO to focus exclusively on CF-100 production.
AVRO sells a few Jetliner Mark 1s to wealthy executives like Howard Hughes.
Jetliner Mark II get more fuel-efficient Rolls-Royce Nene engines. In the long run, AvRO dominates the short to medium haul airline business.
With AvRO turning profits in the airliner business, they are less dependent upon gov’t money to pay for Arrow development.
Arrow is also developed in smaller steps with Mark Is having American-built engines, missiles and fire control groups.
Arrow Mar II s get Iroquois engine’s.
Arrow Mark III gets a Canadian fire control system.
Arrow Mark IV get Canadian made missiles, etc.
Remember that American made missiles were not very reliable during the 1960s. So many missiles miss-fired over NVN that USAF and USN fighter pilots demanded guns be re-installed.

 

[riggerrob]

Also consider the bigger political picture in Canada. The Diefenbaker gov’t was trying to find enough money to pay for socialized medicine. Meanwhile, Canadian admirals and generals had unrealistic high hopes during the late 1950s the RCN struggled to keep a single aircraft carrier at sea! Mean while, the RCN’s mission was shifting to smaller convoy escort ships with helicopters and there was not enough money for both missions!

The other major factor was the Quiet Revolution in Quebec which started in the mid-1950s and contines today. Quebec emerged from an almost feudal society directly into the Summer of Love.To keep the country intact, Ottawa had to shift billions of dollars to factories in Quebec to buy enough votes to keep Quebec within Canada. Some of those military contracts were a waste of defence dollars, like all the CF-5 light weight fighters built by Canadair which were foisted on the RCAF who never really found a mission for them beyond supersonic trainers. CF-5s barely had enough range to drop a full bomb load on the end of their own runway!

 

[riggerrob]

"

..
I always wondered why the Canadians ended up with F101 Voodoos instead of the F106 Delta Dart "

Diefenbaker made a mistake when he cancelled the Avro Arrow without a viable replacement in the wings. Even as a small boy, I thought Bomark missiles were silly. Ottawa never told Canadian voters the true story about all those American-controlled nuclear weapons stationed in Canada.
RCAF got USAF surplus F-101 Voodoos because the USAF was shifting to the next generation of dual role airplanes, most notably the F-4 Phantom II. Phantoms could both intercept and bomb. … and the USAF desperately needed bombers .. lots of bombers .. to fight the Vietnam War.
Meanwhile, CF-101s were still decent long range interceptors capable of chasing Bears .. er.. Tupolev 95 Bear bombers away from the USA's northern border.
A side story is that the RCAF loaned dozens of instructor pilots to the USAF. These Canadian pilots spent the 1960s training American pilots in Texas.

 

[Apophenia]

Actually, the USAF replaced the F-101Bs sold to Canada with less capable Convair F-102s (it would a few more years before the first USAF Phantom would be operational). Not a great deal for the USAF but it kept NORAD functioning at the time.

 

[Archibald]

F-102 was the most numerous off all the interceptors, they build 800 of them and counting. F-106s, F-101Bs were only produced in smaller numbers, less than 300 each. And F-104A/C were not all weather.

Presently in hiatus, will restart it later.

 

[Lascaris]

Have a simpler POD. George Drew doesn't catch menengitis in 1956 and leads the Progressive Conservatives in 1957 election instead of Diefenbaker. He promptly losses it, again after all even Diefenbaker got a minority of the popular vote. By the next election in 1961 the aircraft is in production...

 

[Archibald]

Except I know absolutely zero about 1950´s canadian politics, really. I red somewhere that Saint Laurent - the one who lost in June 1957 to Diefenbaker - wanted to cancell the Arrow, too.

 

[Michel Van]

Another Point of Difference is more brutal, let crash the Airplane with Diefenbaker on board during his election trip in North Canada

 

[Archibald]

nah michel, common, revenge fantasies are frowned upon...

 

[Lascaris]

To get back to this. Let's accept that Arrow gets built. If my maths are right between 160-250 are built depending on weather CF-104 is built or not. (I presume CF-5 are never built with the money going to more Arrows). Lets also accept that Avro Canada gets involved with Concorde, it sounds after all logical. One can even postulate that Avro Canada becomes part of Airbus I suppose. On the other side of the Atlantic probably there are enough butterflies for TSR.2 to survive.

But what is Avro doing with fighter aircraft post Arrow? Depending on whether CF-104 got bought or not, the RCAF will need a new fighter either 1980 or for the 1990s and the 138 CF-18s Canada bought in OTL don't look enough for Canada to develop a purely domestic fighter. My thought... BaE P.96 and P.110 particularly if TSR.2 removed Tornado from the picture.

 

[Lascaris]

Best hope for Iroquois french connection is to give SNECMA a licence. Even if none of the 1958 Mirages are build, later in the mid-60's, many others will be.
Next step: send an Arrow to Le Bourget 1961 and renew that connection with Dassault. Eventually provide Cyrano II doppler radar from the Mirage IIIE, the all weather ground attack variant of the Mirage. Also analog FBW long before the 2000...

This isn't taken to its logical conclusion I think. Dassault has just been handed on a platter fly by wire along with new engines (British/Canadian instead of P&W). The logical effect would be that Mirage F2/F3 and F1 fail to come to being. Instead you get a Mirage III with canards, fly by wire and Spey/Iroquois in production in place of Mirage F1 which aside from electronics is not much different from Mirage 2000, with an upgraded model with new turbofan and electronics competing with F-16 in 1975. Or in effect Mirage 2000 a decade earlier and in unbroken line from Mirage III.

Wonder what becomes of Mirage ACF in this timeline with AdA buying hundreds of relatively cheaper delta Mirages from 1972 and no Jaguar. It's logical form would be a larger two-engined derivative of the delta Mirage... which means a prototype Mirage 4000 in 1975.

 

[Archibald]

OTL there was a last-ditch atempt to keep the Mirage III alive in the early 80's, even beyond the Mirage 50.

The Mirage III-NG actually had the Mirage 2000 analog FBW system, cranked delta, canards... yet it kept ye old Atar 9K-50.

Dassault-Breguet Mirage 3 NG - avionslegendaires.net

: Dassault-Breguet Mirage 3 NG, Prototype d'avion de chasse, construit par Dassault-Breguet, en 1982, pour France

www.avionslegendaires.net

Dassault-Breguet Mirage 3 NG - avionslegendaires.net

: Dassault-Breguet Mirage 3 NG, Prototype d'avion de chasse, construit par Dassault-Breguet, en 1982, pour France

www.avionslegendaires.net

Put an Iroquois into that thing...

 

[Lascaris]

OTL there was a last-ditch atempt to keep the Mirage III alive in the early 80's, even beyond the Mirage 50.

The Mirage III-NG actually had the Mirage 2000 analog FBW system, cranked delta, canards... yet it kept ye old Atar 9K-50.

Put an Iroquois into that thing...

Lets call it dunno Mirage F4 with Mirage F5 being the follow up version? Did F and G stood up for something specific in the names?

 

[dan_inbox]

Did F and G stood up for something specific in the names?

Flèche (sweep), Géométrie Variable (swing-wing).

 

[Archibald]

G for variable Geometry.
F for Flèche, aile en flèche, swept wing. NOT Fighter as in F-16.
V for vertical, VSTOL

More generally, Dassault naming system is chaos, in fact rather oportunistic.

Mirage III > V > 50 roman numbers.

Mirage I and II were the failed, earlier prototypes / LWF / demonstrators from 1955-56
Mirage III was the single atar bird.
BUT
Mirage IV was NOT always the twin atar bird. at the very beginning it meant "A larger Mirage III with a bigger engine... and yes, it can be single engine"

Mirage IV-01 was the demonstrator
Mirage IV-A was the twin Atar bomber
Mirage IV-B was a B-58 size monster
Mirage IV-C was France F-105 / Phantom class heavy fighter.

So the 1959 iroquois bird would be a Mirage IVC, really.

The Mirage V I have no idea if it would happen - OTL it was a much simplified IIIE from 1966.

 

[Archibald]

Back to the original TL

Dassault connects to Avro Canada circa 1958 which creates an interesting situation. The stock Mirage III-C/B/E/R has already become the AdA workhorse for the next 15 years. Plus the Mirage IVA is coming, and the Force de frappe money pit with it. All this mean no new aircraft before 1965 at least. Which leave plenty of time for a kind of OTL Mirage IV-C / Mirage V / Avro Arrow hybrid.
That is
- a somewhat enlarged Mirage IIIE all weather strike fighter, Cyrano II radar included
- as big as a Mirage IV-C, that is, F-105 rather than F-104G in size and weight
- probably called the Mirage V in name only - (not a simplified Mirage IIIE without a radar but something very different)
- rather a Kfir-look alike, although the Iroquois is far "hotter" than even the J79 in all senses of that word
- perhaps closer from a Viggen - oh boy, the beast
- much like these two it has canards
- unlike these two and thanks to the Arrow, it has a... Mirage 2000-like analog FBW ten years before the OTL Mirage 2000 (1968 - hello, Concorde !)
- and of course a massively powerful Iroquois, a beast of turbojet with 30 000 pounds of thrust.

Basically it has Arrow, Viggen, Kfir, Mirage 2000 and Mirage III-NG respective DNAs but it is an entirely unique beast of aircraft, altogether (all together !). The closest OTL thing is really the SAAB Viggen. All the OTL Mirage III prolific offsprings (Kfir and Mirage 2000 included) are smaller and less capable.

 

[riggerrob]

The important political question is whether a Dassault /AvRO would sub-contract work to Canadair in Quebec.
Remember that from 1960 onwards, Ottawa “bought votes” in Quebec by steering high-profile contracts to manufacturers in Quebec.

 

[Archibald]

You have a point. Problem: De Gaulle "VIVE LE QUEBEC LIBRE" in 1967 won't. help. at. all.

 

[pathology_doc]

Imagine if Avro and their Arrow had survived into the 60's and jumped into that bandwagon... Dassault could be their "guiding light" first (around 1960-61, since the Arrow would fit right between the Mirage III and IV) and then the devastated British try to recover after the TSR-2 fiasco, so after 1965.

The British had already assessed and rejected the Arrow as a candidate interceptor to F.155T. Even assuming it survived, rejigging the design to accept attack avionics, radar, TFR and weapons might be more trouble than it's worth. The superficial similarities between Arrow and TSR.2 are striking, but under the skin it might not be so easy.