Hawker P.1154 lecture - March 22nd 2012, London

Michael

In the light of the cancellation of the VSTOL JSF your expertise on P1154 is more than
topical.

Subject to family problems I hope to attend. A couple of themes would be of interest to me:

How much thought had been put into the combination of TSR 2, 1154 and 681? Your excellent Air Britain article and the magazine article on 681 touch on this, but it would be interesting to know if there were studies on how the squadron deployment options (2 in UK, 2 in Germany, 2 in Mid East, 2 in Far East) were arrived at and what they were intended to do.

Since the F4 Phantom was the obvious candidate for this job, until Jaguar was dreamt up, what alternatives were considered to 1154? Could a stol or even a conventional 1154 have been done instead?

I am still hoping you will convert your two magazine articles into a Damien style book on the two.

All the best
Ralph UK 75
 
Ralph,

The RAeS asked me to focus more on the politics, but then politics and the P.1154 are the same thing in many ways. I'll touch on TSR.2 and HS.681 but not much. If I ever get the time a 'big book' would be a nice thing to do, although Damien has set the bar very high!

Regarding your questions, the squadrons were 2 in the UK for army (38 Group) support (i.e. straight GA), 2 in Germany largely for recce (and possibly nuking things but that's a complex tale - the nuclear option was more insurance than requirement) and the four East of Suez ones for GA and recce. Fighter interception was a tertiary (15%) role, intended for tail-chase interceptions guided from the ground with Red Top, mainly East of Suez to deal with Beagle and Badger successors assumed to be capable of M1.4. There was also a lot of concern (expressed in some very racist language by officials!) about Indonesia etc. getting the MiG-21 and so the supersonic speed was also to avoid the P.1154 being a sitting duck for them.

The alternatives to P.1154 were really all the other variants of P.1154. Once Watkinson asked for it in 1962 it was what was wanted (esp. by Amery, although Thorneycroft was not convinced about a joint version) and other projects were only mentioned in passing, not seriously considered. However, what 'the P.1154' was became very unclear until the RN pulled out in '64. The 'V' mattered, before much experience of V/STOL operations. Even after it became STOVL with Harrier experience. STOL has always been a pain for fighters - enough power for V anyway and the STOL features are as complex and heavy but you lose the benefits of 'stopping, then landing'.

Anyway, I hope to see you there!

Mike
 
AdamF said:
It sounds fascinating. Is there any chance of recording the lecture and posting in online?
Click to expand...

I think the RAeS do record them, but not certain.

shedofdread said:
Any chance this production will go on tour?
Click to expand...

See above - it may do electronically!
 
Mike

Thanks for answering my questions. I shall still try to get to your lecture!

All the best
Ralph uk 75
 
I should be there. The boss hopes to make it but can't say for certain. He's already got questions. I'll leave you to guess what they're about.

- RP1
 
See you there Richard!


If the boss can't make it the basic answer to the questions I guess he has is that the P.1154RN was not viable, but the RAF version was possibly OK for commando carriers - wish I could find my picture of the RAF version operating from HMAS Melbourne!


I am sure John Fozard gave him his '10 lessons on naval V/STOL' at some point!
 
Mike

Unfortunately a family problem has come up next week so I cannot get up to London for your
lecture on the P1154.

I do hope that you will publish your thoughts online in due course. I still think that a full account of the P1154 and HS681 sagas, as well as the naval aspects of P1154 would be a winner. However, I realise I am like the Elvis fan asking for yet another work on the King.

Good luck for next week

Ralph
 
Harrier,


A quick question, you say you will be focussing on the politics of the aircraft- I assume this will include the role of Zuckerman who appears to have taken a dislike to to the concept from the outset?
 
Yes, he'll be mentioned (and have a slide!). His biography (and Healey's) skewed the story - at the time he was for it to an extent.
 
Wilson, Zuckerman, McNamara, Suharto, Thorneycroft, Amery....


However, I like a challenge so I will now add Thatcher. Thanks for the idea Chris!
 
So how many of us turned up for this talk? I know I met one of us there (RV1?) but did anyone else make it?

I found all rather interesting and informative. Would love to read a written summary of the talk or even watch it if had been filmed.
 
I was there as well.

A really good lecture... thanks Dr P.

It also reminded me to research the DH129/HS129 a little more.
 
Harrier

As one who could not get to the lecture I would also like to get hold of a transcript or some other version.

UK 75
 
A very good lecture, illustrating the eternal importance of "Camm's fourth dimension" in aircraft design.


- RP1
 
uk 75 said:
Harrier

As one who could not get to the lecture I would also like to get hold of a transcript or some other version.

UK 75
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me too :D please post a transcript in pdf ;)
 
Perhaps next time this kind of thing happens we should make an effort to get together and put faces to online names?

Is there any interest in a group meeting, maybe in London or at a museum elsewhere?
 
ikke666 said:
uk 75 said:
Harrier

As one who could not get to the lecture I would also like to get hold of a transcript or some other version.

UK 75
Click to expand...

me too :D please post a transcript in pdf ;)
Click to expand...

Personally i would hope Mike writes a new ProjectTech Profile on the P1154 after he has done his Harrier projects one, and perhaps see if we can get Mike to do another lecture at a later date
 
Sealord You said it, I hope that Harrier will take heed. However large or small a tome from him would match Damien's TSR 2 opus as the source on the subject.
 
Thanks for your kind words about the lecture. I enjoyed it too!


The RAeS recorded it and the recording should be available soon. I'll let you know when I know myself.


Regarding a book, there is probably a Project Tech Profile in it (plus maybe HS681) but I think something the size of Damien's TSR.2 book would be for my retirement - day job needs to come first. If only writing books paid all the bills....!
 
Sadly missed this lecture again ( thats twice now) real life gets in the way. A transcript would be welcome indeed.

A Book on the P1154 would be fantastic, if its any where as comprehensive as the P1216 it will be a great addition to the book shelves. Where would be the best place to post questions about the P1154?
 
Hello
I know that you must be extremely busy but is there any news on the P1154 recording at all please? There seems to be a large gap between podcasts on the RAeS website and has jumped from March to August I just hope they are still going to put it on the site as the suspense is killing me!

Kind regards
Alan
 
The RAeS are still promising me a recording, on a CD, but I have not received it. If I do I will ask them if it can go online too.
 
The (audio) file plays back normally here, in both Quicktime Player and VLC. Note that Quicktime will open the file, but won't autostart it. Just click the > button to start playback.

Also, the talk starts at 1:30 into the file.
 
Harrier

Just listening to your excellent talk. The story about the TSR 1, 2 and 3 is priceless! You ought to post it to a wider audience here..
The slides would also be interesting, are they electronically available.
You and Damien B are definitely my gurus on this period.

UK 75
 
Just completed listening to your lecture and the question and answer session in particular.

I now understand the UAV limitation question a lot better. I also liked the comment at the end about the US Marines (NCIS should incorporate this in an episode).

The political ins and outs of the period are fascinating and you cover some interesting ground. I would only add one thing from a variety of sources. It is pretty clear that if the Conservatives had returned to power they would have taken the same decisions as Labour, because the RAF was disenchanted with TSR 2, 1154 and 681. Phantom and Hercules were such good aircraft that by 1964 they offered good alternatives to the home grown product (RAF wanted more Phantoms and disliked P1127RAF) Had they not existed, the UK planes might have been more appealing.
 
A fascinating lecture, thank you for making this file available, it has been well worth the wait.
Regards
Alan
 
I have asked the RAeS to re-send it, and at some point it may even be on their website!
 
Paul, thanks, I assume I have copyright over my own words!


I'll get the file to you when I am back on cable broadband tomorrow.



The presentation is audio only, which YouTube won't accept.
 
Harrier said:
The presentation is audio only, which YouTube won't accept.
Click to expand...

I may be teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, but if you can find some public domain P.1154 (or failing that, Harrier/Kestrel) pics, you could make a slideshow in Windows Movie Maker and superimpose the audio to make a slideshow. Am pretty sure YouTube would accept that.
 

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