Hawker designation list

[overscan (PaulMM)]

P.1000: single seat fighter powered by Napier Sabre with contra-rotating propellers.
P.1001: close support bomber based on Henley to specification B.7.40.
P.1002: Hurricane with 20mm cannon. Became Mk IIC.
P.1003: Henley escort fighter conversion.
P.1004: two seat high altitude fighter to specification F.7/40.
P.1005: high speed bomber with two Rolls-Royce Sabres, leading to specification B.11/41.
P.1006: Henley close support bomber to specification B.20/40.
P.1007: single seat high altitude fighter.
P.1008: night fighter to specification F.18/40.
P.1009: Typhoon naval fighter to specification N.11/40.
P.1010: Typhoon with turbo-supercharger.
P.1011: P.1005 with Power Jet engines.
P.1012: Typhoon II with leading edge radiators. Became Tempest I.
P.1013: P.1005 with remotely operated guns.
P.1014: single seat fighter with Power Jet engine.
P.1015: P.1005 with Bristol Centaurus engine.
P.1016: Typhoon II with Rolls-Royce Griffon engine.
P.1017: single seat fighter based on Typhoon wings with Griffon engine.
P.1018: light fighter with Sabre IV, leading to Fury.
P.1019: light fighter with Griffon 61, leading to Fury.
P.1020: light fighter with Centaurus IV, leading to Fury.
P.1021: Tempest with Centaurus engine, leading to specification F.6/43.
P.1022: naval fighter to specification N.7/43. Became Sea Fury X.
P.1023: Tempest I with Sabre IV engine.
P.1024: Tempest development with Sabre engine.
P.1025: light fighter with Griffon engine.
P.1026: fighter to specification F.2/43. Became Fury.
P.1027: Tempest with Rolls-Royce RR46 engine.
P.1028: tail-less fighter.
P.1029: tail first fighter.
P.1030: fighter with 4000hp engine.
P.1031: fighter with Rolls-Royce B.40 jet engine.
P.1032: P.1026 with Rolls-Royce Eagle engine.
P.1033: P.1005 with two Eagle engines.
P.1034: P.1005 with two Rolls-Royce B.41 engines.
P.1035: P.1026 with Rolls-Royce B.41 jet engine amidships, air intakes in the wing and split jet exhaust pipe.
P.1036: P.1026 with Sabre V.
P.1037: twin-boom fighter with two Griffons.
P.1038: P.1034 with Rolls-Royce B.41 engine.
P.1039: P.1034 with two B.41s in fuselage.
P.1040: P.1035 with B.41 in fuselage. Became Sea Hawk.
P.1041: replacement for D.H.98 Mosquito.
P.1042: P.1040 development.
P.1043: P.1040 without undercarriage.
P.1044: naval fighter bomber.
P.1045: naval P.1040.
P.1046: naval P.1040 with rocket boost.
P.1047: P.1046 with extreme sweep-back to wings.
P.1048: fighter with two AS.65 engines.
P.1049: fighter with AS.65 and extreme sweep-back.
P.1050: long range, high altitude, tail-less transport.
P.1051: naval bomber to carry large missile.
P.1052: research aircraft based on Sea Hawk and P. 1047. Two built.
P.1053: various fighter designs powered by rockets.
P.1054: fighter to specification F.43/46 with two AS.65s close to fuselage.
P.1055: eight seat commercial aircraft.
P.1056: night fighter to specification F.44/46, with straight wing.
P.1057: night fighter to specification F.44/46, with swept wing.
P.1058: four/five seat private or air taxi low wing monoplane, with two Lycoming or Continental engines.
P.1059: naval P.1056 with wing nacelles.
P.1060: naval P.1056 with fuselage nacelles.
P.1061: P.1054 with straight wing.
P.1062: P.1052 with AS.65 engine.
P.1063:to specification H.9/47.
P.1064: research aircraft with two Avons over the wing.
P.1065: fighter with one jet and one 2,000lb rocket engine.
P.1066: not used.
P.1067: fighter to specification F.3/48. Became Hunter.
P.1068: P.1040 with Rolls-Royce RB.66 engine.
P.1069 to P.1071: transonic research aircraft.
P.1072: P.1040 with AS Snarler rocket. One conversion.
P.1073: fighter.
P.1074: P.1040 with modified wings.
P.1075: P.1062 with Nene engine.
P.1076: development of P.1067.
P.1077: general purpose fighter with two Avons.
P.1078: P.I052 with rocket assistance.
P.1079: not used.
P.1080: P.1052 to Australian specification.
P.1081: P.1052 with Rolls-Royce Nene or Tay.
P.1082: fighter to specification F.23/48.
P.1083: Hunter with 50 degrees swept wing.
P.1084 and P.1085: research aircraft with delta wing.
P.1086: not used.
P.1087: naval version of P.1081.
P.1088: light fighter with two 3,000lb st engines.
P.1089: rocket fighter with 5,000lb st engine.
P.1090: Hunter with D.H. Gyron engine.
P.1091: Hunter with delta wing in co-operation with Avro.
P.1092: two seat, all weather supersonic fighter with delta wing.
P.1093: single seat, all weather supersonic fighter with delta wing.
P.1094: P.1072 with new thin wing.
P.1095: P.1083 with larger fuselage and Sapphire 4 or Avon RA.14, and reheat.
P.1096: supersonic fighter with delta wing and Rolls-Royce R B.106.
P.1097: P.1083 with R.B.106.
P.1098: 16 passenger short haul airliner with high wing and swing tail for freight work Two Alvis Leonides engines and fixed tricycle undercarriage.
P.1099: Hunter with Avon RA.19 or RA.28.
P.1100: supersonic development of Hunter with R.A.24 and two rockets.
P.1101: two seat Hunter trainer. Became T.7.
P.1102: Hunter with new thin wing.
P.1103: two seat interceptor fighter with D.H. Gyron engine, to carry two Vickers Red Dean missiles; to specification F.155T.
P.1104: aircraft with two Rolls-Royce R.B.112s designed to reach Mach 2.
P.1105: Hunter F.6 with podded rocket boost engines.
P.1106: Hunter with thin, greater span wing.
P.1107: straight wing supersonic fighter with four engines.
P.1108: naval strike fighter to specification M.I48T.
P.1109: Hunter F.6 with Firestreak missiles.
P.1110 to P.1113: not used.
P.1114: all-weather Hunter with Rolls-Royce Avon engine.
P.1115: all-weather Hunter with Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire engine.
P.1116: strike derivative of P.II03, retaining two crew.
P.1117: information not available.
P.1118: supersonic Hunter with thin, straight wing.
P.1119: information not available.
P.1120: Hunter advanced trainer.
P.1121: single seat air superiority strike aircraft developed from P.1103.
P.1122: P.I 121 with steel wing.
P.1123: two seat stretched version of P.I 121.
P.1124: supersonic rocket powered target aircraft.
P.1125: twin Rolls-Royce R.B.I33 Medway version of P.O.
P.1126: subsonic VTOL strike aircraft; multi lift with two Bristol-Siddeley Orpheus.
P.1127: V/STOL fighter. Became Kestrel. Page 63.
P.1128: six seat business jet aircraft with two Britol-Siddeley Orpheus, based on Hunter.
P.1129: strike aircraft in competition with TSR-2, with two R-R Medway or two B-S Olympus.
P.1130: Hunter two seat, all-weather fighter.
P.1131: long range freighter with four Rolls- Royce Tyne turboprops.
P.1132: strike aircraft with two Bristol-Siddeley Pegasus. P. 1133: Hunter with AI.23 radar and Firestreak missiles.
P.1134: Mach 3 research aircraft, with one engine and ramjets.
P.1135: information not available.
P.1136: canard design with lift engines and cruise engine.
P.1137: V/STOL strike aircraft with engines in tilting nacelles.
P.1138: information not available.
P.I 139: fighter with two lift engines and lift/cruise Rolls/Royce RB.163. similar in layout to Soviet's YAK 36 (Forger).
P.1140: supersonic version of P.1139.
P.1141: STOL fighter with Bristol-Siddeley Pegasus with reheat.
P.1142: information not available.
P.1143: V/STOL strike aircraft with tilting nacelle.
P.1144 to P.1148: information not available.
P.1149: two seat strike aircraft with six lift engines and two lift/cruise Rolls-Royce Speys.
P.1150: supersonic thin wing development of P.1127, with advanced Pegasus and plenum chamber burning in the forward nozzles.
P.1151: information not available.
P.1152: two seat strike aircraft with four lift engines lift cruise engine with reheat
P.1153: information not available.
P.1154: two seat naval supersonic development of P.1150 to NATO specification NBMR-3. PCB equipped BS.100 engine. Also single seat RAF version.
P.1155: P.1154 with lift engines fore and aft.

Source:
Donald Hannah, Flypast Reference Library - Hawker, Key Publishing 1982

 

[hesham]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

Hi,

P.1144 :supersonic V/STOL strike fighter.
P.1145 :------?.
P.1146 :was P.1144 development.
P.1147 :naval fighter.
P.1148 :was P.1147 with variable sweep.

 

[lark]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

and:

P.1179 STOVL project c.1967. Schemed only
P.1182 Tandem two-seat dual rôle trainer c.1967.Became
HS/BAe Hawk T.1
P.1185.9 STOVL project c.1969 Schemed only
P.1205.11 STOVL project c.1974 Submitted to AST 403
P.1214.3 STOVL project c.1976 Schemed only.

Source : Hawker Aircraft Since 1920.Francis K.Mason
Putnam.1995.

 

[hesham]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

Hallo,

P.1151 :jet flab,two seat bomber to specification OR.346 .
P.1153 :two seat deflected thrust bomber to Esp OR.346.
P.1156 :subsonic vectored thrust V/STOL fighter.
P.1157 :supersonic V/STOL drone aircraft.
P.1158 P.1155 development.
P.1159 :single engine straight wing V/STOL to NATO Fiat G-91 replacement.
P.1160 :single engine Missile armed supersonic interceptor.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

QUOTE P.1124: supersonic rocket powered target aircraft.QUOTE
Sorry but I have difficulties figuring this aircraft :-\

Just a question : were the Hawker P.1134 and english electric P.42 competitors for an hypersonic research program (around 1962 ?) Or there's no links between the two ?

 

[Jemiba]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

In F.K.Mason "Hawker Aircraft since 1920", Putnam the P.1134 is descrbed as "
possibly to ER.180D",aimed at a speed of Mach 3 to 4, whereas in AirPictorial
4/99 the P.42 is said to bedesigned along ER.181T, aimed at speeds between
Mach 4 and 5. So I would think, the P.42 would have been the logical next
step, but not a direct contender.

 

[Mike Pryce]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

For V/STOL ones see:

Cheap Harrier Escort London

Welcome to the homepage of Cheap Escort London. Our agency is dedicated to providing our clients with the very best in companionship services. We have a wide selection of beautiful and intelligent girls available for bookings, and we are confident that we can find the perfect match for any...

www.harrier.org.uk

Needs a bit of an update, but still largely good.

 

[Tuomasn]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

Are there drawings or pictures of any of the 1980s projects, many of which sound very interesting (for example P.1241 "Stealth ASTOVL with RALS" and P.1243 "Ramp launched, tail-sitting recovery unmanned fighter" )? I would suppose not, but any more info about any of the 1980s projects would be most welcome.

Also, there seem to be some gaps, which I presume were non-V/STOL projects. Can someone fill these in?
So 1246 was the last Kingston project?

 

[Mike Pryce]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

The P.1243 (the 1224 re-numbered) was discussed by Deino on the Key forum. See:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19934

He had a pic he got from a website, but it seems to have been removed.

Other 80s projects details are in a paper I wrote, published by SAE, link right at the bottom of the list on Harrier.org.uk. They took the copyright, make you pay and I don't get a penny! However, there may be copies of the SAE Transactions in your local library. Year is 2003. Harrier projects paper also on SAE website, and in 2005 Transactions.

 

[Tuomasn]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

1246 was the last numbered project. Other 'missing' ones are non-VSTOL. I have the others listed on my PC at home, but not in a fit state to post (a .SAM file!), and it is on 'loan' anyway, so not my copyright. But I am happy to answer questions.

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting your answer properly, but can you tell what projects P.1242 and P.1225 were?

Other 80s projects details are in a paper I wrote, published by SAE, link right at the bottom of the list on Harrier.org.uk. They took the copyright, make you pay and I don't get a penny! However, there may be copies of the SAE Transactions in your local library. Year is 2003. Harrier projects paper also on SAE website, and in 2005 Transactions.

Well, I'll eat - not my hat - but all the clothes I'm wearing if I'll find a copy within a 200 km radius of my local library! ;D
But thank you for the nice thought.

Anyway, I would really like to know if the paper contains illustrations of the projects, and if so, are they model pictures, manufacturer's three-view drawings, or redrawn three-view drawings. Given that the file size at SAE is a bit under 3 megabytes, I'm somewhat worried about potential image quality, especially taking into consideration the large number of projects that should be included.

 

[Mike Pryce]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

The P1225 was a Hawk 200 variant.

The P1242 was a study comparing STOL to STOVL aircraft.

You might be able to get a local library to get an 'inter library loan' from one that has the SAE Transactions (many university engineering departments have them), and would get all the other papers too. The ones I co-wrote all have illustrations, both GAs and company artisit's impressions, about 10 or 12 of each per paper, but the images are only 10cm square or so.

 

[Tuomasn]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

Thank you harrier.

P.1233, P.1234 and P.1238 were SABA (Small Agile Battlefield Aircraft) projects. That leaves only very few missing. The "British Secret Projects" books appendix should contain a list of Kingston projects. Could someone who has that book please post what it says about P.1210, P.1211 and P.1215? I don't think posting three tiny tidbits of info would be a major copyright violation.

You might be able to get a local library to get an 'inter library loan' from one that has the SAE Transactions (many university engineering departments have them), and would get all the other papers too. The ones I co-wrote all have illustrations, both GAs and company artisit's impressions, about 10 or 12 of each per paper, but the images are only 10cm square or so.

Actually I might be interested in buying that paper. An inter libary loan would not be totally free either, plus I still have doubts whether that paper exists in Finland, and by buying I would also get the material permanently and in electronic form. My interest is limited to BAe projects of the 1980s, anyway.
However, I don't want to buy a pig in a bag, thus my questions. But am I right in interpreting your answer so that only about 20 of the several dozens of Kingston projects have pictures in the paper? Thus meaning the majority getting only textual coverage?
Or, to put it straight, how many post-P.1210 projects are illustated?

 

[Mike Pryce]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

The P.1210, 1211 and 1215 were Brough projects, IIRC. They will also have Brough numbers in the P.160 range - I think P.1215 was also the P.163.

I will PM you the list of article illustrations.

 

[Maveric]

Hi all,

in the list of projects from Hawker/Hawker Siddeley and B.Ae. are some gaps! Can you tell me something about the P.1117 / P.1119 / P.1124 / P.1142 / P.1145 / H.S.1172 / H.S.1174 / H.S.1183 / P.1225 / P.1235 / P.1239 / P.1242 and P.1247 to P.1250 ? ??? ???

Is the designation P.1184 correct for the "Sea Harrier FRS.Mk.1" ???

Servus Maveric

 

[boxkite]

Tony Buttler describes the P.1142 as a

Supersonic STOL fighter with Bristol Siddeley Pegasus BE.53/1, 1960

in his BSP Jet Fighters.

 

[CJGibson]

The HS / P.1239 is described in BSP4.

KB

 

[Maveric]

...so I believe the B.Ae. P.1239 is an unmanned flying object ???

Servus Maveric

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the P.1124 was supersonic rocket powered target aircraft.

 

[Mike Pryce]

From memory/rough notes (all my good stuff/pics currently in boxes!):

P.1117 Naval Hunter
P.1119 'Faster' (M.3?) P.1103
P.1142 STOL fighter with BE.53
P.1145 STO strike fighter - like a Buccaneer, in intent at least
P.1172 Hunter two-seater modified with P.1154 avionics/radar for tests - like later Hunter T.8M
P.1174 was two-seat Harrier (T Mk 2)
P.1183 was a big version of early P.1182 (Hawk) with two RR Vipers
P.1225 was Hawk 200 with ventral bomb pannier or chin inlet (& RB.199?)
P.1235 was P.1201 for Spanish AX requirement
P.1242 was several studies of STOL aircraft, the 'main' one looking like the Chinese J-10

The series stopped at P.1246 so there were no P.1247-50, just a few P.45's! (For non-UK readers, that is the tax form when you lose your job)

P.1184 is NOT correct for Sea Harrier - that was a mistake repeated in many Jane's All the World's Aircraft for many years. P.1184 was a range of Harrier variants for AST.396.

 

[Maveric]

THANKS to all of you ;D

Servus Maveric

 

[AM]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

Hi,

P.1117 - Naval Hunter
P.1119 - 'Faster' (M.3?) P.1103
P.1135 - Thin-wing Hunter (1959)
P.1142 - STOL fighter with BE.53 (1960)
P.1145 - STOL strike fighter - like a Buccaneer, in intent at least

 

[BAROBA]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

I dont know if this is the right place to ask, but has anyone any more information about the hawker P.1028: tail-less fighter and the P.1029: tail first fighter?

Thanks in advance

Rob

 

[Retrofit]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

I dont know if this is the right place to ask, but has anyone any more information about the hawker P.1028: tail-less fighter and the P.1029: tail first fighter?

Their project numbers (P.1028 & P.1029) indicate they were dated around 1944.
Perhaps there is something in Tony's BSP 3 "Fighters & bombers 1935-1950", but, unfortunately, I don't have this one...
Anybody can confirm?

 

[lucamax]

Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List

Hi, do you have more informations and pics or drawings of the P.1004?
Thanks in advance

 

[Retrofit]

Hi,

I am looking for information about 2 tailless and 3 delta wing projects listed above:
The P.1028, tailless fighter
The P.1050 Long-range, high altitude, tailless transport
The P.1084 / P.1085, experimental a/c with delta wing.
The P.1096 Supersonic delta wing fighter.
:
Thanks in advance,

 

[Stargazer]

Please try to keep in mind that, until quite recently, the British used dots "." where Americans used hyphens "-".

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

P.1096/P.1097 are in British Secret Projects : Jet Fighters, P.75, they were Mach 2 research aircraft designed to ER.134T, losing out to the woeful Bristol 188. Neither represent particularly interesting designs.

 

[fightingirish]

A 3-view drawing showing the Hawker P.1096 is printed in the latest French magazine 'Le Fana de L'Aviation", September 2013, page 63 and is part of an article about the Bristol 188.
But the 3-view drawing in BSP is more in detail.

 

[PeterW]

Re: Hawker designation list - the early jets

Is there anyone out there who has seen an original Hawker sketch of the P.1035? It was short lived (late 1944?) and morphed into the P.1040, the progenitor of the Sea Hawk. In the early 90's Barrie Hygate's 'British Experimental Jet Aircraft' inspired me to model the Hawker design evolution from Typhoon/Tempest to Hunter via P.1040, P.1052 and P.1081 in 1/48th scale. Progress is at glacial pace .

Although it was never built, the P.1035 was the first cautious step by Hawker's Project Office to design a jet powered fighter based around what they already had, just as Supermarine turned the Spiteful into the Attacker. Opinions seem to differ between straight through and bifurcated exhausts, I believe it looked like an Attacker with Fury wings. The P.1040 was much changed, with straight wings, tricycle undercarriage and bifurcated exhaust. PS - Contrary to the note in Hannah's index, the P.1052 was based on the P.1040, not the Sea Hawk. P.1052 VX272 survives at Cobham Hall, Yeovilton.

 

[hesham]

Welcome aboard PeterW,

and here is all drawings and Info about P.1035;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3574.0.html

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3575.msg51996.html#msg51996

 

[PeterW]

Re: P1035

Thanks Hesham, that's more information in a few hours than I had found in twelve months. Have I at last found the home of serious research?

Reading Paul MM/Barrie Hygate's recent book on the final Camm fighters, the approach taken by Hawker's Project Office would explain the multiple answers to the question "what did P1035 look like?"

The answer depends on which design iteration we what to pick as definitive, and I guess after the passage of time, how reliable we consider the data we are presented with. Apologies if it is obvious somewhere on the forum, but can you explain the 'source grade' convention being used? - I've seen grades 1 - 4 used to date.

As I understand it, none of the sketches in the 2008/9 mails claim to have Hawker provenance, so however well conceived, they are speculation. The text posted by Smurf is tantalising... For me it says that the bifurcated exhaust takes us into P.1040 territory. That just leaves the question of tricycle or Fury undercarriage. I've also seen some text elsewhere which inferred that the 'early' P1035 has Attacker style intakes. It is credible that the wing mounted intakes and exhausts were conceived together, as they would each have had significant engineering impact on the centre section structure.

Until seeing Smurf's post, the best clues I had were on Wikipedia where someone has posted ' In the final years of the Second World War, Hawker's design team explored jet engine technology, initially looking at "stretching" and modifying the existing Hawker Fury/Sea Fury planform fitting a mid-engine Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine and moving the cockpit to the extreme front of the fuselage, creating the P.1035. With encouragement from the Air Ministry, the design was altered substantially, with the wing losing the elliptical shape of the Fury and featuring wing-root air intakes and short bifurcated jet exhausts (which gained the name "trouser legs"). This redesign culminated in building the private venture P.1040'


It sounds like seven years after these posts there is still an appetite to get at the full story. Another whole can of worms is the Malcolm (ML) ejection seats installed in the five related Hawker jet prototypes P1040 - P1081. Paul has just sent me one of Barrie's side views, and I have the late Graham Carter's book on ML plus my own cockpit photos of VX272 at Cobham Hall, but so far as I can find there are no surviving designers from that period. Live history has slipped into recorded history, and what's not recorded is gone!
Best regards
Peter

 

[robunos]

How the 'Source Grade' system works, by the inventor thereof...

“Source Grades” of drawings – The Unwanted Blog

cheers,
Robin.

 

[PeterW]

Thanks Robin
It would be good if this were adopted more extensively in publications, perhaps in time?
Peter

 

[Boxman]

Here is June 1950 British Pathé newsreel film of the sole Hawker P.1081 (VX279) taxiing and in flight, along with footage of test pilot T.S. "Wimpy" Wade in the cockpit briefly describing the aircraft. Sadly, Wade would perish in this very same aircraft on April 3, 1951.

YouTube - British Pathé Selected Originals - London Airport - Jet Fighter (1950)
Description "Selected originals (offcuts, selected scenes, out-takes, rushes) for story "London Airport - Jet Fighter" - 50/51."

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ8zm3vYVUA

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the main Hawker & Hawker Siddeley series from 1940 to 1978 were;

- P.1000 from 1940,raised up to P.1163,after that the prefix changed into HS,from HS.1170 up
to HS.1207

- P.122 after absorbing Blackburn in 1960,continued to P.161

- SP.63 also after purchased Blackburn in 1960,went on up to SP.90 (maybe)

- HS.131 up to HS.149,after taken over De Havilland in 1960,called Hatfield division

- HS.800 blew up to HS.837,after acquired Avro to became Manchester subsidiary

- HSA,APD & APG,all were the same,started from HSA.1000 and last known HSA.1023

 

[ursrius]

Hesham,
Thanks for the summary: I have just a few comments

- P.1000 from 1940,raised up to P.1163,after that the prefix changed into HS,from HS.1170 up
to HS.1207

Agreed, though according to BSP2, Project numbers P.1161, 1162 and 1164 to 1169 were not used. When everything finally came under the Hawker Siddeley banner, the Kingston project numbering began with HS. BAe reverted to the P prefix from P.1208 on.

- P.122 after absorbing Blackburn in 1960,continued to P.161

Although it can be difficult to decide exactly when a Brough project can be considered Blackburn or Hawker Siddeley, I believe they should be considered as Blackburn designs up to P.138. Hawker Siddeley continued the same P series. Again it is difficult to decide when a project is HS or BAe, but I think P.161 would be correct. The P sequence was then continued by BAe up to P.183, after which all Brough projects were integrated into the Kingston project numbering system.

- SP.63 also after purchased Blackburn in 1960,went on up to SP.90 (maybe)

Interesting - I have no information on the Brough SP series other than the SP.80 Helicrane, otherwise the B.118A. I would really like to see anything on this series (along with source info)

- HS.131 up to HS.149,after taken over De Havilland in 1960,called Hatfield division

Agreed

- HS.800 blew up to HS.837,after acquired Avro to became Manchester subsidiary

According to Project Tech Profile 04 - The Air Staff and AEW, Chris Gibson, the HS.836 was a 1978 design, so BAe projects begin with BAe.836 and Hawker Siddeley ends at HS.835, with the exception of HS.860, a variation on HS.806.

HSA,APD & APG,all were the same,started from HSA.1000 and last known HSA.1023

Personally I have only ever seen these as APD. It would be great if anyone has a list of these.

Great work Hesham, thanks for a good summary.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Ursrius,

Agreed, though according to BSP2, Project numbers P.1161, 1162 and 1164 to 1169 were not used. When everything finally came under the Hawker Siddeley banner, the Kingston project numbering began with HS. BAe reverted to the P prefix from P.1208 on.

we can say unknown Projects,or missing papers.

Although it can be difficult to decide exactly when a Brough project can be considered Blackburn or Hawker Siddeley, I believe they should be considered as Blackburn designs up to P.138. Hawker Siddeley continued the same P series. Again it is difficult to decide when a project is HS or BAe, but I think P.161 would be correct. The P sequence was then continued by BAe up to P.183, after which all Brough projects were integrated into the Kingston project numbering system.

maybe that's right.

- SP.63 also after purchased Blackburn in 1960,went on up to SP.90 (maybe)

after SP.60 & SP.62 nothing was known,except in BAe age,there was SP.105,SP.110 and
later SP.113.

According to Project Tech Profile 04 - The Air Staff and AEW, Chris Gibson, the HS.836 was a 1978 design, so BAe projects begin with BAe.836 and Hawker Siddeley ends at HS.835, with the exception of HS.860, a variation on HS.806.

agreed.

HSA,APD & APG,all were the same,started from HSA.1000 and last known HSA.1023

I hope so,I know only APG.1003,APD.1017,APD.1019,APD.1022 & APD.1034.

 

[Schneiderman]

Re: Hawker designations and 'unused' project numbers. We should remember that as we go through the 1950s and 1960s these companies were often working on a few non-aviation projects, and these may well explain the apparent gaps in the Hawker numbers. That is certainly the case with Folland and Short numbering, probably for others too.

 

[ursrius]

after SP.60 & SP.62 nothing was known,except in BAe age,there was SP.105,SP.110 and
later SP.113.

Hesham, thanks - can you post any information on these, or, better still point to a source.

I know only APG.1003,APD.1017,APD.1019,APD.1022 & APD.1034.

I have nothing on APG.1003 or APD.1022 - care to share?

Chris Gibson, in 'Nimrods Genesis', refers to Hawker Siddeleys advanced projects organization as the Advanced Projects Group and details the APG.1011, otherwise known as the HS.1011 and similarly for 1010 as APG.1010/HS.1010 and APG.1023/HS.1023. Other than 'introducing' the APG designation, the HS designation is the one he uses mostly. Richard Payne, in 'Stuck on the Drawing Board', refers to the HS.1010 and HS.1011, while Derek Wood in 'Project Cancelled' refers to the Type 1011!
Finally, Chris Gibson and Tony Buttler, in 'British Secret Projects: Hypersonics, Ramjets and Missiles', refer to Hawker Siddeleys advanced projects organization as the Advanced Projects Department, and give details for APD.1017, APD.1019 and APD.1034.

My personal opinion is that the correct designation would be either APD or APG, with the HS designation being used in marketing/brochures. What do any drawings state?

Re: Hawker designations and 'unused' project numbers. We should remember that as we go through the 1950s and 1960s these companies were often working on a few non-aviation projects, and these may well explain the apparent gaps in the Hawker numbers. That is certainly the case with Folland and Short numbering, probably for others too.

Possibly also they just decided to start the HS series at a 'round number', i.e. HS.11170.

 

[Schneiderman]

Possibly also they just decided to start the HS series at a 'round number', i.e. HS.11170.

That sounds reasonable but my suggestion was actually a thought regarding your earlier reply to Hesham......."Agreed, though according to BSP2, Project numbers P.1161, 1162 and 1164 to 1169 were not used"