GW series of British Missile Cruisers

Problem is, it is an IRBM not SRBM
Though Redstone too was long (21meters) Blue Streak was longer with 24meters, but this Black Knight with it's 11,6meters is quite good for a shipborn weapon much closer to the size of the Polaris A1.

Hmm.. 6 missiles on 3 types of hulls (173, 190 209 meters) or 4 missiles on 167 meters each with it's own launcher. Horizontally stored, even the longer Blue Streak could be accommodated on these hulls, say 30m for each missile storage and launcher, 3 per side seems quite reasonable for these hulls
 
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Believe it or not, there was a proposal at one time (which was fairly rapidly dropped) to base Blue Streak on barges which could be taken out to sea.
It would have been difficult to build a launcher on the seabed, since the Blue Streak proposed silo would have been about 40 m deep, and I doubt if there are any places in UK coastal waters of that depth.

Black Knight was not intended as a weapon, but solely as a research vehicle. However, it could have been converted to military use if need be. It would have the advantage that it could use storable propellants. The early version was 36 inches in diameter; a proposed follow-on design would have been 54 inches in diameter, which is exactly the same diameter as the Polaris missile.
 
And the first drawing which I could used a sketch drawing as a basis for, the GW14:
www.deviantart.com

Royal Navy GW14 Convoy Escort Design by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com www.deviantart.com
ddtrr19-25207fe1-f5f2-4ff9-a691-d48c3f81df2e.png


The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 158.5m (wl) x 21,34 x 5,41m
Displacement: 10.306tons (full load)
Engines: 30.000shp, Steam Turbines (Probably English Electric Y100), 2 shafts
Range: Unknown probably 15-21.900km at 22km/h (8-12.900nm at 12knots)
Speed: 43km/h (24knots)
Armour: 51mm Deck over Machinery and 38mm over Magazines, 51mm Belt over Machinery and Magazines (Missile and Guns)
Armaments:
2x2 3"/70 (76mm/70) QF Mk N1 AA Guns,
4x2 40mm/70 OQF Mk XI AA Guns,
1x2 GWS.1 Sea Slug SAM
Sensors:
2x Type 901 Missile Control/Director Radar
6x Type 903 Fire-control Radar, one for each MRS.3 director
1x Type 960 Air Search Radar
1x Type 974 Surface Search/Navigation Radar
1x Type 982 Air Search Radar
1x Type 983 Height Finder Radar
1x Type 992 Target indication/Surface/Air Search Radar
 
ANd the last one for the time being, the Type 984 equipped GW14A proposal:
www.deviantart.com

Royal Navy GW14A Convoy Escort Design by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com www.deviantart.com
ddtv9e2-66b9c905-354f-4cba-a0d5-3c0c2687d409.png


The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 158.5m (wl) x 21,34 x 5,41m
Displacement: 10.376tons (full load)
Engines: 30.000shp, Steam Turbines (Probably English Electric Y100), 2 shafts
Range: Unknown probably 15-21.900km at 22km/h (8-12.900nm at 12knots)
Speed: 43km/h (24knots)
Armour: 51mm Deck over Machinery and 38mm over Magazines, 51mm Belt over Machinery and Magazines (Missile and Guns)
Armaments:
2x2 3"/70 (76mm/70) QF Mk N1 AA Guns,
4x2 40mm/70 OQF Mk XI AA Guns,
1x2 GWS.1 Sea Slug SAM
Sensors:
2x Type 901 Missile Control/Director Radar
6x Type 903 Fire-control Radar, one for each MRS.3 director
1x Type 974 Surface Search/Navigation Radar
1x Type 984 3D Air Search/Fighter Control Radar
1x Type 992 Target indication/Surface/Air Search Radar
 
Some new ones:
Design GW15 a reduced sized and armament version most likely to cut the costs of the proposal:
tzoli.artstation.com

Royal Navy GW15 Convoy Escort Design

The Convoy Escort design of GW15 was most likely intended to cut costs of the design by reducing it's displacement to below 10.000tons. This was achieved by deleting the two twin 3" gun turrets which also allowed the hull to be shortened directly influencing the armour required. But by deleting...
tzoli.artstation.com tzoli.artstation.com
takacs-zoltan-tzoli-gw15.jpg



The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 150.87m (wl) x 21,33 x 5,41m
Displacement: 9.508tons (full load)
Engines: 30.000shp, Steam Turbines (Probably English Electric Y100), 2 shafts
Range: Unknown probably 15-21.900km at 22km/h (8-12.900nm at 12knots)
Speed: 43km/h (24knots)
Armour: 51mm Deck over Machinery and 38mm over Magazines, 51mm Belt over Machinery and Magazines (Missile and Guns)
Armaments:
4x2 40mm/70 OQF Mk XI AA Guns,
1x2 GWS.1 Sea Slug SAM

Sensors:
2x Type 901 Missile Control/Director Radar
4x Type 903 Fire-control Radar, one for each MRS.3 director
1x Type 960 Air Search Radar
1x Type 974 Surface Search/Navigation Radar
1x Type 982 Air Search Radar
1x Type 983 Height Finder Radar
1x Type 992 Target indication/Surface/Air Search Radar
 
3.550tons, GW-24
110 x 13 x 3,8 meters
3x twin Bofors,
1x Twin Sea Slug with only 12 missiles

Minimal radar set:
1x Type 901 Missile Control/Director Radar
3x Type 903 Fire-control Radar, one for each MRS.3 director
1x Type 960 Air Search Radar
1x Type 974 Surface Search/Navigation Radar
1x Type 992 Target indication/Surface/Air Search Radar

Basically a minimal missile frigate.
 
Tzoli said:
Basically a minimal missile frigate.
Click to expand...

Thank you!

P.S. Another question, if I may - I heard that there were some ideas about installing Sea Slug on converted merchant ships (I suppose it was pretty early in development). Was there anything supporting it, or just rumor?
 
I've not heard merchant ship conversions but I will look into my sources.
There were WW2 cruiser and carrier conversions as well new design coastal, convoy and fleet escort with these alst three having triple launchers as on Girlde Ness.
 
Next, GW16 a modified version of 15 where the 3" guns retained but missile sotwage reduced accordingly (60 instead of 90 missiles)
tzoli.artstation.com

Royal Navy GW16 Convoy Escort Design

GW16 probably a sister design to GW15 where the designers had to stay below 10.000tons yet previous 3" gun armament retained. To achieve this the hull had to be lengthened by 3 meters but for the tonnage not to increase drastically the carried missiles number was cut from 90 to only 60. The...
tzoli.artstation.com tzoli.artstation.com
takacs-zoltan-tzoli-gw16.jpg


The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 153.92m (wl) x 21,33 x 5,41m
Displacement: 9.825tons (full load)
Engines: 30.000shp, Steam Turbines (Probably English Electric Y100), 2 shafts
Range: Unknown probably 15-21.900km at 22km/h (8-12.900nm at 12knots)
Speed: 43km/h (24knots)
Armour: 51mm Deck over Machinery and 38mm over Magazines, 51mm Belt over Machinery and Magazines (Missile and Guns)
Armaments:
2x2 3"/70 (76mm/70) QF Mk N1 AA Guns,
4x2 40mm/70 OQF Mk XI AA Guns,
1x2 GWS.1 Sea Slug SAM

Sensors:
2x Type 901 Missile Control/Director Radar
6x Type 903 Fire-control Radar, one for each MRS.3 director
1x Type 960 Air Search Radar
1x Type 974 Surface Search/Navigation Radar
1x Type 982 Air Search Radar
1x Type 983 Height Finder Radar
1x Type 992 Target indication/Surface/Air Search Radar
 
Following the last for the time being of the large convoy escort designs: GW17:
tzoli.artstation.com

Royal Navy GW17 Convoy Escort Design

This design might be a companion to GW16, the missile stowage remained at 60 but by again removing the 3" guns and shortening the hull as much as possible, 330tons could be saved on GW15 and 700 on GW 16. With this GW17 design the large convoy escort series seems to end for the time being. The...
tzoli.artstation.com tzoli.artstation.com
takacs-zoltan-tzoli-gw17.jpg



The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 146.3m (wl) x 21,33 x 5,41m
Displacement: 9.180tons (full load)
Engines: 30.000shp, Steam Turbines (Probably English Electric Y100), 2 shafts
Range: Unknown probably 15-21.900km at 22km/h (8-12.900nm at 12knots)
Speed: 43km/h (24knots)
Armour: 51mm Deck over Machinery and 38mm over Magazines, 51mm Belt over Machinery and Magazines (Missile and Guns)
Armaments:
4x2 40mm/70 OQF Mk XI AA Guns,
1x2 GWS.1 Sea Slug SAM

Sensors:
2x Type 901 Missile Control/Director Radar
4x Type 903 Fire-control Radar, one for each MRS.3 director
1x Type 960 Air Search Radar
1x Type 974 Surface Search/Navigation Radar
1x Type 982 Air Search Radar
1x Type 983 Height Finder Radar
1x Type 992 Target indication/Surface/Air Search Radar
 
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I could had done better if I had access to the original sketches but in the current situation even those who live in the UK would had difficulties reaching the archives, not alone a Hungarian artist like myself... :)
 
Tzoli said:
I could had done better if I had access to the original sketches but in the current situation even those who live in the UK would had difficulties reaching the archives, not alone a Hungarian artist like myself... :)
Click to expand...

well you have done a great job with what information is out there.

Do not know if this is a little bit of topic, but i was wondering if the Tiger class could also be used as a missile cruiser.
 
To my knowledge the Tiger class was not considered for GW conversion, the Fiji Class was considered to be equipped with Sea Slug, as well as an Implacable class carrier and maybe the Vanguard and KGV but I'm these last two might be only risen as ideas and cost calculations
 
In the table I've posted here:

For the GW.18-23 series which were rather small proposals except for the last two, 22 and 23, the missile stowage was stated as "T". Now we know H means "Hanger" and D means "Deep" stowage, but what could T means? These designs again except from 22 and 23 had rather low missile numbers (relative to the previous proposals) so this has to mean something!
Maybe Tilted, Tram, Tank?
 
Tzoli said:
In the table I've posted here:

For the GW.18-23 series which were rather small proposals except for the last two, 22 and 23, the missile stowage was stated as "T". Now we know H means "Hanger" and D means "Deep" stowage, but what could T means? These designs again except from 22 and 23 had rather low missile numbers (relative to the previous proposals) so this has to mean something!
Maybe Tilted, Tram, Tank?
Click to expand...
Tube?
After all, that's the term used later on.
 
Tzoli said:
I've decided to post the photos my friend made some years ago about the GW series of missile warships documents, it's not all the documts from the archives just the few my friend made. The most interesting is the complete table showing all the designs from GW.1 to GW.80
You guys can find it here:

GW Missile Warships - Google Drive

drive.google.com drive.google.com


Also who knows which radar or director is this drawing showing:
http://www.and-kin2008.narod.ru/pr61/5.JPG
Click to expand...
What is the correct name of the source where this interesting file was found?
 
Royal Brass Foundry archives, Kew, Richmond
Workbook papers.
 
Tzoli said:
Royal Brass Foundry archives, Kew, Richmond
Workbook papers.
Click to expand...
.

A bit confusing.

The Brass Foundry is part of the National Maritime Museum and is at Woolwich (arsenal). It holds the NMM's collection of Ships' Plans and photographs. Also Ships Covers, and Constructors Workbooks.

At Kew, in Richmond, is the TNA:pRO (The National Archives, ex-Public Records Office) which holds the vast majority of Admiralty files available to the public.

.
 
I don't know. All I know these are official documents from the Royal Archives. Some says Kew some says Brass Foundry. Sorry I'm not a British person to exactly know which is the correct archive. It is very difficult to search or more like ask for material when a country stores these in multiple locations.
 
I think this document I've first mentioned here:
ADM 220/2179
PROPOSALS FOR A LONG RANGE (UP TO 100 n.m.) G.M. SYSTEM OF HIGH CAPACITY
belongs to the GW thread rather to the NIGS thread.
The attached .docx document is a word by word re-type by me and a friend of the official Admiralty document.
I hope it will be of some use to you guys and interesting to others.
1721307147974.jpeg
 

Attachments

  • PROPOSALS FOR A LONG RANGE (UP TO 100 n.m.).docx
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Interesting.

  • The UK boffins really missed just how quickly the US was going to develop the Talos, however. While the first generation of Talos (RIM-8A/B) only had a 50nmi range, in 1960 the RIM-8C/D versions appeared with a 100nmi range. And as best I can tell, the RIM-8G Talos was in service by 1964 and had a 130nmi range due to a fuel change. While the UK Bloodhound (which was at least expected to provide guidance systems if not the whole missile) did not reach 100nmi range until 1964. And frankly, the UK booster rockets were terrible compared to Talos (and more importantly, compared to Terrier/Tartar).
  • On the guidance radar side, the UK was very optimistic in getting an active radar seeker stuffed into a missile in the 1950s. Though with Bloodhound being 55cm in diameter, it's not like trying to stuff an ARH seeker into Sparrow II. So it might have proven practical, while Sparrow II's K-band seeker proved impractical due to super short range.
  • I believe the UK was correct in terms of how many illumination radars they'd need, at least 6. The US ended up with 4 but that was always a little tight on the number of targets to engage, which led to the US developing the ability to share illumination radars between targets. The challenge is how to mount those illumination radars so that they can all bear through the most arcs. 2 on each end with 1 "superfiring" over the other was easy to set up, adding a 3rd makes for topweight issues.
 
Tzoli said:
I think this document I've first mentioned here:
ADM 220/2179
PROPOSALS FOR A LONG RANGE (UP TO 100 n.m.) G.M. SYSTEM OF HIGH CAPACITY
belongs to the GW thread rather to the NIGS thread.
The attached .docx document is a word by word re-type by me and a friend of the official Admiralty document.
I hope it will be of some use to you guys and interesting to others.
View attachment 734837
Click to expand...
Much thank for you doing this.

Note the 15" dish for the homer.....when Seaslug is 14".
Arguably a 15" to 16" diameter missile compatible with the Seaslug launcher, magazine and County Class Destroyer is a viable development path.

Note also that Orange Nell effectively solves the short range problem.

Doppler fuzing!

And now we have the answer on the beacon mentioned in the comparative list of cruisers. This is the interrupted beam rider system for autonomous self guidance of the missile. Prior to active or semi-actitve homing.
 
Tzoli you have done a marvelous job with your research and artwork so many thanks from me.
I admit my fantasy British cruiser would look like an Albany or Long Beach with NIGS and Orange Nell in place of Talos or Typhon.
 
Tzoli said:
Yeah I've noticed...
And reading the description for the launchers:



This basically describes the GW 70-81 design series. Which had various (2-4-5-6-10 single) Stage 1 3/4 missile launchers.
Click to expand...

I am replying to your post in the other thread here to try and maintain some sort of delineation between programmes.

The first incarnation of this system was based on the RAF's proposed Stage II air defence system, the Royal Navy unofficially called it Red Flannel. Specifically, a long range active (or passive) radar homing missile with mid-course guidance. This is the system that was included in the designs GW.59 (probable based on it having eight single launchers, Type 985 and no illuminators) and GW.61-63 (note the 'R.F.' next to their missile counts). This took me a little while to figure out because whoever filled out the GW design list table in the Guided Weapons Ship's cover for those designs put the radar details in the wrong boxes, probably because being an active radar homing missile Red Flannel didn't need illuminators so they just put the surveillance radar details in the illuminator box instead and left the radar box empty. The only mystery left around this series is "Trackwell", presumably this is a name for a Type 985 (Type 984 successor) studied by ASRE in 1955.

You are right in saying that ADM 220/2179 uses the RAF's Stage 1 3/4 missiles (Blue Envoy) and that GW.70-80 were designed for this system. As the Naval staff had determined to use the RAF weapon they had to follow them when they abandoned Stage 2 for Stage 1 3/4. The beacon was a proposed mid-course guidance system, it seems to have been the favourite but two other approaches were under evaluation and no decision had been made when Blue Envoy was cancelled.

I would add, this is why very little work was done to improve Sea Slug until approximately 1958, it had been assumed since late 1954 that it would be quickly replaced in production by a new and far more capable long range system.
 
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