Giraffe tanks

[Grey Havoc]

JAZZ, Presumably this proposal (or full program?) originated around 1988 [year TRIGAT LR development commenced]?

 

[Jemiba]

Looks like a reload system on the rear and a gun integrated into the fire unit ?

 

[Grey Havoc]

Looks like a reload system on the rear and a gun integrated into the fire unit ?

At first I thought it was a 25mm cannon, but it could be the 'British' version of the Bushmaster II cannon, firing 30 x 170 mm RARDEN ammunition, although that particular project wasn't formally announced until October 1989.

 

[Avimimus]

I'm trying to understand the missile tubes at the back - is it supposed to reload from that? Or is something else going on?

 

[Jemiba]

With the crossbar behind those two groups of missile containers, I would expect some sort of
reloading mechanism. Difficult to imaginefor me is, how they would be aligned with the firing
unit.

 

[Rickshaw]

With the crossbar behind those two groups of missile containers, I would expect some sort of
reloading mechanism. Difficult to imaginefor me is, how they would be aligned with the firing
unit.

If you look at the reload magazines, they are mounted on a parallelogram like arrangement of struts. That would allow them to tilt to become in line with the retracted firing unit when it was depressed rearwards. I would expect there was some means on the firing unit to match the tubes up and allow the new missiles to be inserted. It is an ingenious design but I'd have been more tempted to keep the reloads vertical and have the firing unit depress to over their tops. Perhaps put a rotating mechanism so that they could present a new missile to each tube in turn.

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody
Here the Leopard2/Helex high energy laser patent
Hubvorrichtung mit Richtantenne und Strahlfuehrungsstrecke
Krauss-Maffei 1988
DE 3804445 A1
Here the PDF
https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregister/pat/PatSchrifteneinsicht?docId=DE000003804445A1&page=1&dpi=300&lang=de&full=true

Many greetings

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody

DE3316068A1
Gepanzertes Fahrzeug ( Daimler Benz EXF 8x8 chassis)
Porsche AG 1983

DPMAregister | Volldokument - DE000003316068A1

DPMAregister stellt die amtliche Publikationsplattform des DPMA dar, mit Hilfe derer das Amt die Veröffentlichungen vornimmt, die im Rahmen der anhängigen Verfahren im Patent-, Gebrauchsmuster-, Marken- und Designsachen gesetzlich vorgesehen sind.

register.dpma.de

DE8514264U1
Stabilisierter Mastschaft für elevierbare Waffenplattform auf Teleskoparm (z.B. für Tieffliegerabwehr) für Kampffahrzeuge der 3. Generation

DPMAregister | Volldokument - DE000008514264U1

DPMAregister stellt die amtliche Publikationsplattform des DPMA dar, mit Hilfe derer das Amt die Veröffentlichungen vornimmt, die im Rahmen der anhängigen Verfahren im Patent-, Gebrauchsmuster-, Marken- und Designsachen gesetzlich vorgesehen sind.

register.dpma.de

DE2622995A1
Kampf- und Beobachtungsfahrzeug
GST Gesellschaft für Systemtechnik 1976

DPMAregister | Volldokument - DE000002622995A1

DPMAregister stellt die amtliche Publikationsplattform des DPMA dar, mit Hilfe derer das Amt die Veröffentlichungen vornimmt, die im Rahmen der anhängigen Verfahren im Patent-, Gebrauchsmuster-, Marken- und Designsachen gesetzlich vorgesehen sind.

register.dpma.de

Many greetings

 

[lastdingo]

You guys missed one Giraffe tank project so far:

There was a version of the Puma family of vehicles from the 80s (it is hard to find anything about this AFV family on the internet because of the WW2 and present-time "Puma" - I even failed to find it with a quick search here, keyword "Puma"!).

Quote from "Jane's Armour and Artillery 1989-90" entry on "Puma Armoured Combat Vehicle Family":

"Aid Defence / Anti-tank Vehicle
The articulated mast can be raised to a height of 12 m and would be either manned or unmanned and be fitted with four, six, eight or more missiles.
In the manned version, the gunner is in an armoured cabin with a traversible platform mounting a guided missile carrier with four or six missiles. In addition to having sights for guiding the missiles and vision blocks, it also has a long-range periscope which allows accurate identification of hard targets up to a range of 4000 m.
Currently HOT and TOW missiles are proposed but when fitted with air defence Stinger missiles, the vehicle can be used for air space interdiction in the battlefield area, fir example against helicopters."


more general info:
4 road wheels per side (gap in centre) version with 440 hp
18 t chassis weight + 7 t payload

5 road wheels per side version with 750 hp
19+13 t

6 road wheels, 750 hp
21+17 t

private venture of Krauss-Maffei and Diehl, with obvious invovlement of MAN (engines)
started 1983
first prototype in spring 1986 completed

 

[moin1900]

The Puma

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,715.msg107153.html#msg107153

JED

The Military Equipment Database

www.jedsite.info

JED

The Military Equipment Database

www.jedsite.info

JED

The Military Equipment Database

www.jedsite.info

JED

The Military Equipment Database

www.jedsite.info

Many greetings

 

[eshelon]

(about "giraffe tank" version of M113+TOW)

From "The M901 armored missile vehicle"

"Efforts to provide a better carrier mount for the TOW were in progress by early 1972. In March, a twin tube launcher was installed on an M113 using a pivoting, ten (? - eshelon) foot, vertical boom. Named Elevated Antitank Missile Launcher Test Rig, it was intended to permit firing the missile with vehicle in hull defilade. The boom pivoted down to ground level for reloading, but it could be done from outside the vehicle"

 

[Grey Havoc]

Another handy link on the Puma (in German though): http://waffen-der-welt.alices-world.de/armour/apc/d_puma.html

Puma JPZ-Rak: Jagdpanzer with six wheels and telescopic mast from the Panther project with antitank missiles.

 

[eshelon]

(fictional) tank with elevated gun turret

 

[Grey Havoc]

Another handy link on the Puma (in German though): http://waffen-der-welt.alices-world.de/armour/apc/d_puma.html

Puma JPZ-Rak: Jagdpanzer with six wheels and telescopic mast from the Panther project with antitank missiles.

Courtesy of eshelon:

 

[eshelon]

I am waiting for the Indian "giraffe tank":

"(Advanced) Land version, will also have its range extended by development of a mast-mounted missile launcher that will be hydraulically raised out to a height of five metres to enable the Nag missile to acquire its targets out to a distance of 7–8 km."

5 meters is not much, but more than the typical vehicle-mounted ATGM launcher.

 

[eshelon]

New find - one of the concepts of Kurjak (Black Wolf) - Yugoslav upgrade package for BRDM-2.
A new dimension of urban warfare - vehicular corner shot.

 

[xiaofan]

Chinese GT-6 Anit tank missile system.

 

[riggerrob]

Once you convert to smart missiles (e.g. top-attack anti-tank) there is less and less incentive to mount any more than sensors on top of a mast. Vertical launch tubes would vastly simplify hull design.
With the profusion of laser designators, etc. currently used by forward air controllers, it is only a matter of time before any AFV can launch missiles at an un-seen enemy.
As missiles get more sophisticated, the only need for direct-fire weapons is the occasion machine gun for close-in (1,000 meters) defense.

 

[eshelon]

One more German giraffe tank concept.
Marder chassis, TOW launcher.
From pdf linked by Davis.Kyle in "South American Tanks" topic.

- - - - -

riggerrob,
elevated missile launcher still have advantages.

 

[bigvlada]

New find - one of the concepts of Kurjak (Black Wolf) - Yugoslav upgrade package for BRDM-2.
A new dimension of urban warfare - vehicular corner shot.

Another Yugoimport SDPR hack job. We should have a museum of their marketing concepts. They have no facilities to build anything. Lazar 1 and 2 MRAP are the only projects that have a dedicated factory in which they can be built.

 

[patetlao]

Another Yugoimport SDPR hack job. We should have a museum of their marketing concepts. They have no facilities to build anything.

No problems. They will sell the license for its development (and its technical documentation) to a country which has such a plant and which has a BRDM-2 for modernization.

 

[eshelon]

Was Tagash Akrav, now second (first) Israeli observation vehicle - Eyal Observation Post Vehicle based on Sherman tank.

"This Sherman had its turred removed, and was installed with a hydraulic system capable of raising an observation device to a height of 27 m. The system, that was engineered by "EYAL" Industries, was requisitioned by the IDF for use as a mobile look-out post along the Suez Canal front, from the War of Attrition to the War of Yom Kippur (1973)."

 

[dan_inbox]

No, it was based on a Magach Tagash, ie a M60 AVLB

 

[TomS]

Dan, I can't see your picture, but the one eshelon posted is definitely a Sherman.

 

[dan_inbox]

Dan, I can't see your picture, but the one eshelon posted is definitely a Sherman.

Try going directly to http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/dan_pub/Magach%20Tagash%20Akrav_zpsplrf4p0p.jpg


The Sherman Eyal Duvdevan was based on Sherman chassis, and the Magach Tagash Akrav was based on Magach chassis.

 

[TomS]

OK, I understand. I didn't read eshelon's post as a question.

(PS: Photobucket is blocked for me. This is one reason why the forum encourages people to upoad photos rather than linking.)

 

[dan_inbox]

Maybe "the forum encourages people to upoad photos rather than linking", but here when I try, it demands only a http link.

 

[TomS]

Odd. Below the text box there should be a box labled "Attach". You can upload photos there.

 

[dan_inbox]

Indeed there is. Trying it:

 

[eshelon]

Mast-mounted Tank Breaker launcher on Sheridan chassis

 

[shin_getter]

Here's the laser one. An MBB/Diehl project from the late 80's. They were hoping to get it working by the mid 90's.

Is it the right time for this concept to get revived? All those energy weapon projects have limited coverage.

This kind of vehicle, with near future teach would likely have been the better option for defending against the UAV attack on Saudi refinery that happened. (granted that the attack would not have been planned that way if this sort asset were available)

 

[PMN1]

Mast-mounted Tank Breaker launcher on Sheridan chassis

What are the Tank Breaker missiles noted here?

 

[TomS]

What are the Tank Breaker missiles noted here?

It became Javelin.

 

[eshelon]

1. modern example (War in Dombass) - improvised "giraffe" from Ukraine (on truck, Stugna-P ATGM); article
2. color version
3. stationary version of EPLA (source: Jane's)
4. Warrior with elevated Trigat (source: https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/warrior-infantry-fighting-vehicle/)
5. (USA) CONCEPT NO.5 COMBAT VEHICLE, INFANTRY, MISSILE/ROCKET
6. (China) Type 89 Recce Radar Carrier / ZZC-02 (very similar to Snezka reconnaissance vehicle)

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Why hasn't this concept entered service if it offers so many advantages? (These advantages mainly being the ability to fire at a target from behind cover and being extremely useful in urban combat environments.)

 

[Newtonk]

Why hasn't this concept entered service if it offers so many advantages? (These advantages mainly being the ability to fire at a target from behind cover and being extremely useful in urban combat environments.)

Expense, politics, advances in armour, advances in armaments, changes in doctrine... take your pick

 

[eshelon]

Why hasn't this concept entered service if it offers so many advantages? (These advantages mainly being the ability to fire at a target from behind cover and being extremely useful in urban combat environments.)

With NLOS (Non-Line-Of-Sight) weapons: Loitering Munitions and ATGMs (MMP, Spike LR, Brimstone, Spike NLOS, Hellfire...) you don't need them up, because enemy don't see you firing at them (indirect fire).
Elevated platform is useful for LOS ATGMs (SACLOS like TOW, laser beamrider like Kornet).

For observation, today you have better options - virtual masts (tethered drones) and (small) VTOL drones.
Also are very compact weaponized VTOL drones like CR-500 (8 ATGMs) - it is also a "missile pod", but flying and independent (not physically connected) from carrier.

Currently used non-combat elevated platforms:

S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 13

First S-350 medium-range air defense system arrives for Russias Aerospace Force The training center has already held an exercise to detect and eliminate a

www.russiadefence.net

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48108701721_cc206200be_b.jpg
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-655.html
(9S36M low-altitude acquisition radar of Buk-M3 system) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:9S36M_Armia-2018.jpg

Combat was/are:
a) in urban environment:
in Israel - Magah Tagash Akrav
on the Middle East (Iraq and Syria) - improvised ("1", "2") and dedicated -

https://twitter.com/x/status/1038825644661121024

b) non-urban:
in Ukraine (War in Dombass) - Stugna-P
on the Middle East (Iraq and Syria) - improvised "3"

+ in Northern Ireland 70s/80s (Wheelbarrow EOD robot)

 

[Grey Havoc]

For observation, today you have better options - virtual masts (tethered drones) and (small) VTOL drones.

Not really. They both have major disadvantages compared to a giraffe tank. They are much more vulnerable to Electronic Warfare for example. Also, NLOS missile systems tend to be pretty overhyped in practice. The real reasons giraffe tanks haven't entered service in numbers to date was firstly the end of the Cold War and the infamous 'Peace Dividend'. Later in the 2000s the transformationalist hype around drones and networks, COTS, etc. crowded out common sense solutions for a long time, and still do to a depressing degree it has to be said.

 

[eshelon]

They are much more vulnerable to Electronic Warfare for example.

Communication between ground manned recon vehicle and HQ also can be jammed.
Tethered drones - connected with carrier by fibre optic cable can't be jammed.

 

[shin_getter]

Missile on masts is a lot of weight that is not necessary at all, even with LOS guided weapons, as long as minimum range is not a big issue.
Swingfire + Mast = done.
Or alternatively, Masted Laser Designator + Hellfire = done.

NLOS is just handy for small wars and useful for big wars, and getting it into service is likely less of a problem than a new vehicle program with a narrow niche and does not deliver "revolutionary" capabilities.