German WW1 Bomber projects

[lucamax]

Very nice pics Hesham! What is your source?

 

[hesham]

The source my dear Lucamax is;


http://alternathistory.org.ua/taxonomy/term/889

 

[lucamax]

Thanks a lot Hesham!

 

[theponja]

The source my dear Lucamax is;

http://alternathistory.org.ua/taxonomy/term/889

Lucas the original source for that drawings is the book:
The German Giants: The German R-Planes 1914-1918 (Putnams German Aircraft)

The old site about asymmetrical aircraft isn't online anymore ( you can get some contents with the wayback machine) so I'm going to repost here the content about the Gotha Go.VI:



"The first to apply his imagination in the asymmetric aircraft design direction, Hans Burkhard did so as a clever means of reducing drag. Born in Switzerland, Burkhard joined the German Gothaer Waggonfabrik as its chief designer on October 1, 1914. One of the firm's early contracts during WWI was to mass-produce Germany's first twin-engine airplane, the Gotha G.I. In Burkhard's opinion the fuselage and two engine nacelles representated three drag-producing bodies. "I began", he later said, "to think about ways in which the air resistance could be reduced. And I came upon the idea of an asymmetric configuration."
After much tinkering around with different arrangements, Burkhard concluded that the most efficient way to get twin-engine power with two bodies was to mount the fuselage with TRACTOR engine and tail surfaces to the left side while the right side would have a small nacelle incorporating a PUSHER engine and an observer/gunner's cockpit, that extended forward of the tractor propeller.

To compensate for the different power-to-drag coefficients, the nacelle was placed somewhat closer to the wing central axis than was the long fuselage. In addition to reducing drag, the pusher-tractor arrangement, with its overlapping propeller arcs, allowed the engines' thrust lines to be closer together, thereby reducing directional-control problems from torque forces in case one engine malfunctioned. On September 22, 1915, Burkhard obtained German Patent number 300 676 for his unusual design, but the German government was not interested in pursuing its development. Instead, Berkhard had to return to more conventional designs: G.II, III, IV and V.

By late 1917, the Gotha bombers were becoming increasingly vulnerable to attack by British fighters, and the German military expressed an interest in a bomber of higher performance. Burkhard was eager to prove that his asymmetric concept could produce the world-beater.

The new aircraft, designated G.VI, was built in the winter of 1917-1918. The construction was almost identical to those of the Go.IV and Go.V. The wing span was slightly reduced, though. Before it crash landed in the summer of 1918, the plane made a few successfull flights, proving the asymmetric conception was vital. Burkhard claimed that the Go.VI flew very well and exceeded in performance its conventional predecessors. The slight buffeting of the rear fuselage was to be neutralized by utilizing the ASYMMETRIC TAILPLANE on the second prototype.

The war ended before the second aircraft was completed. It is believed to have been destroyed in preference to being turned to the Inter-Allied Control Comission."


I'm attaching a couple of drawings. The first is a provisional drawing by I.Shestakov. Anyone has the second one, with the asymmetrical variants in higher resolution or knows about the source?

Regards
Alcides

 

[Avimimus]

The lower-right G.VI variant is quite interesting (kind-of makes it almost look like there's a reason for the assymetries).

 

[richard]

Quote : "Anyone has the second one, with the asymmetrical variants in higher resolution or knows about the source?"

They all are patent of the war years ( four in 1918 , and one , the third , 31/10/1916 ) , published in "Flugsport" during 1919 .

 

[hesham]

Thank you Richard,

and here is the Schutte-Lanz R.I twin-boom heavy bomber project of 1916;

http://alternathistory.org.ua/tyazhelye-bombardirovshchiki-luftschiffbau-schuette-lanz-proekt-tyazhelogo-bombardirovshchika-schuel

 

[Avimimus]

Many thanks!

 

[hesham]

Thank you Avimimus,


and here is the Zschach R-flying boat bomber project;


http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ar&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fflyingmachines.ru%2FSite2%2FIndexes%2FCrafts6-4.htm

 

[Avimimus]

Here is a question about the flying boat projects: Was there ever any thought of equipping the Dornier RS. series with bombs? I know that the Zepplin-Staaken 8300s could cary 100 kg.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

here is the Mercur heavy bomber Germany project of 1918;

http://alternathistory.org.ua/tyazhelye-bombardirovshchiki-mercur-flugzeugbau-proekt-tyazhelogo-bombardirovshchika-mercur-1918-god
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ar&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Falternathistory.org.ua%2Ftyazhelye-bombardirovshchiki-mercur-flugzeugbau-proekt-tyazhelogo-bombardirovshchika-mercur-1918-god

 

[Jemiba]

A comprehensive article about the "R-Flugzeug" of the Mercur-Flugzeugbau GmbH was published in
the LuftfahrtInternational magazine, March/April 1978, all drawings and photos probably are from this source.
This company, was mainly license building Albatros types, the own design staff seems to have been quite small
and no of its own designs is known to have ever left the ground. The company filed several patents, for example
for a shrouded propeller with adjustable guide vanes.
It should be noted, that NO drawings of the showm bomber project seem to have survived ! The reconstruction
was done (with great care and knowledge, as should be added in all fairness !) by Dipl.Ing. H.J. Lindstädt,
assuming that this aircraft would have been closely based on the companies own patents. So, all drawings and
the model, too, are source grade 1 !
For example, it's not clear if the four engines, that were driving a single contra prop, would have worked on a
conventional mechanical gearbox, or if the y would have powered a hydraulic motor. The Mercur-Flugzeugbau
GmbH hold patents for both systems.

 

[hesham]

Great info my dear Jemiba,


thank you very much.

 

[theponja]

It should be noted, that NO drawings of the showm bomber project seem to have survived ! The reconstruction
was done (with great care and knowledge, as should be added in all fairness !) by Dipl.Ing. H.J. Lindstädt,
assuming that this aircraft would have been closely based on the companies own patents. So, all drawings and
the model, too, are source grade 1 !

Very informative!! A couple of questions: What is "source grade 1" ? and Are the model pictures from and old model or the magazine build the model for the article?

Regards
Alcides

 

[Jemiba]

About source grading I recommend Scotts thread here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2849.0.html.

With reference to the article, the model seems to have been built as part of the reconstruction by Peter Freeborn.
Maybe this name rings a bell for someone of you ?

P.S.: Have a pdf of the article in quite low, but readable resolution (perfect for email), but, of course it's in German language !

 

[hesham]

Hi,


here is the early drawing to Siemens-Schuckert R.VIII heavy bomber.


http://alternathistory.org.ua/tyazhelye-bombardirovshchiki-siemens-schuckert-werke-tyazhelyi-bombardirovshchik-siemens-schuckert-0

 

[Arjen]

RVIII images on this site are from"The German Giants. The German R-Planes 1914-1918" by G W Haddow, Peter M Grosz.
Quite a lot of them. Saves me the trouble of scanning them, here is one example:

 

[Jemiba]

In Luftfahrt International N° 12, 1975 an aircraft is shown with a nice artist impression and described as
being "probably designed as a bomber". The interesting point for me is the source for this design, just a
windtunnel model (see cutout), which was held by a member of the "Aerodynamische Versuchsabteilung
Göttingen" (Aerodynamic Test Department), 1918. Nothing more is known, not the designer, or the company,
or not even, if it was a company project at all, or just a study of the AVA.
To be fair, all those points are mentioned in the article, which speaks of this model with all due prudence.But
if one of you will see this design one day in another source, maybe designated as "Dornier" or "Rumpler", as
comparisons were drawn to other aircraft of those companies, it should ring a bell !
Not to be misunderstood, I won't regard this design as a fake, it certainly was studied by the AVA, but to draw
more conclusion, that this article would be negligent, I think.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Jemiba,


but the Company AVA is new to me.

 

[theponja]

Thank you my dear Jemiba,


but the Company AVA is new to me.

If I understand well it isn't a company is an institute or organization: "Aerodynamische Versuchsabteilung
Göttingen" (Aerodynamic Test Department)


BTW I've to check my files because the shape of model is remembering me something.

 

[Jemiba]

If I understand well it isn't a company is an institute or organization: "Aerodynamische Versuchsabteilung
Göttingen" (Aerodynamic Test Department)

That's right, it isn't a company, but an organisation that was tasked with aerodynamic testing. Nevertheless, those tests
could have been either basic research, or on order of an aviation company for studying a layout or new design.

 

[Arjen]

Slightly off-topic, just as an example of what technology was considered for the German WWI giants:

This picture from hesham's Ukrainian site shows a 1,000 kg wire guided gliding missile, meant to be carried by the Siemens-Schuckert R.VIII. All work on this and other missiles was halted by Siemens-Schuckert in December 1918.

 

[theponja]

Well what my mind was found similar was the projects known as Adlershof R-projects. I'm putting one image on this post.
But it's a larger aircraft and the wingtips are totally different.

The twin-fuselage seems to be popular on that times:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6893.msg58934.html#msg58934
So, the mistery continues.

 

[Jemiba]

In 1917 Dr. Ing. Rudolf Wagner submitted a design for a steam powered "R-Flugzeug" to the "Inspektion
der Fliegertruppen" (Technical Service of the Imperial German Airforce). Wagner was already quite well
known for maritime developments, including light-weight steam turbine plants and proposed to used such
a propulsion for a large aircraft. The intended powerplant with 1000 hp would have been placed in the
fuselage would have powered large diameter contra-props, pilot and part of the crew would have been
placed in the upper cabin, bombload and the rest of the crew in the lower compartment.
No estimated data are known, span seems to have been around 40 m, similar to other then current "R-
Flugzeuge"
The reconstruction, using patent files and mentions in contemporary literature was done by Peter Garnatz and
Günter Kusch and published in Luftfahrt International N°24 1977.

 

[hesham]

Great find my dear Jemiba,


and for Zschach R-flyingboat project,here is anther drawing to it;
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ar&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Falternathistory.org.ua%2Fproekt-tyazhelogo-bombardirovshchika-letayushchei-lodki-chakha-germaniya

 

[theponja]

In 1917 Dr. Ing. Rudolf Wagner submitted a design for a steam powered "R-Flugzeug" to the "Inspektion
der Fliegertruppen" (Technical Service of the Imperial German Airforce).

Wow!!!!
The Steampunk R-Plane!!!! You found it!!!

Really very interesting, how sad they don't give us the 3d view. I think the make one to build the model, the same happened with the Mercur heavy bomber.

I've marked a couple of things in one picture. The 1 reference I tough are radiators, they look really big and of course a lot of drag can be expected.
About the 2 reference I love that exhausts.

 

[Jemiba]

The 3-view shows the aircraft, as it was proposed 1917. The not very neat positioning
of the radiators, or better condensers was critised already back then.
Another point of criticism was the propeller, which appears much too small in this drawing.
Regarding the filed patents, the propeller arrangement for this aircraft was changed several
times, with contra props in the last designs.
A different layout is shown here, with hexagonal fuselage cross section and a prop, that seem to
have a better diameter. The condensers probably would have been integrated into the fuselage
sides.

 

[Arjen]

Mind enhancing stuff.

 

[Jemiba]

The mentioned Dr. Rudolf Wagner is just the same, as the inventor of the "Contrapropeller"
(counter propeller), a kind of guide vane to improve the efficiency, originally for ship propellers.
He filed a patent for the application of this invention for aircraft not before 1918, but that big
prop made me think, that he could have thought about its use for this aircraft, too, at later
stages. Will post the aircart designs in relation with the Contrapropeller in a separate thread.

 

[archipeppe]

The 3-view shows the aircraft, as it was proposed 1917. The not very neat positioning
of the radiators, or better condensers was critised already back then.
Another point of criticism was the propeller, which appears much too small in this drawing.
Regarding the filed patents, the propeller arrangement for this aircraft was changed several
times, with contra props in the last designs.
A different layout is shown here, with hexagonal fuselage cross section and a prop, that seem to
have a better diameter. The condensers probably would have been integrated into the fuselage
sides.

So, where is Dick Dastardly singing "Stop the pidgeon!!"???


Ok, no more joke but it really seems emh....odd

 

[Jemiba]

Ok, no more joke but it really seems emh....odd

Well, to my opinion not much more, than, say the Pemberton-Billing P.B.31 Nighthawk, which
apart from the number of wings and position of the props was of similar appearance.
With regards to aircraft design, especially large ones it were quite odd times !

 

[Avimimus]

Not to mention the Lloyd battle plane...

 

[Stargazer]

Or the Blackmore Inverness... or the Barling bomber... or... ;D

 

[hesham]

Well what my mind was found similar was the projects known as Adlershof R-projects. I'm putting one image on this post.
But it's a larger aircraft and the wingtips are totally different.

The twin-fuselage seems to be popular on that times:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6893.msg58934.html#msg58934
So, the mistery continues.

Hi,


here is most Adlershof R-class bomber projects;


http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ar&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Falternathistory.org.ua%2Ftaxonomy%2Fterm%2F889%3Fpage%3D32

 

[hesham]

And;

 

[Jemiba]

In Volker Koos book "Ernst Heinkel- Vom Doppeldecker zum Strahltriebwerk" two "Großflugzeuge" (large aircraft)
are mentioned, which were under construction by the Brandenburgischen Flugzeugwerken (BFW). The first was ordered in
July 1915, at first powered by four tandem mounted 100 hp Mercedes engines, later changed to 160 hp engines and
intended to carry six 50 kg bombs with a speed of 135 km/h.
Work on this aircraft didn't proceed as intended and it is said, that this was due to some kind of protracting by the chief
designer Ernst Heinkel himself, who had recognised the hopelessness of his design. During engine runs on the ground
the aircraft developed dangerous vibrations in the tail, so that acception and even the opportunity for incorporating further
changes was refused by the acceptance committee.
The other aircraft was ordered during March 1916. It should have been powered by a fuselage mounted 345 hp Austro-Daimler
engine driving two props on outriggers, but work on this bomber was stopped at the end of the year.
Both aircraft weren't mentioned in post-war publications about the BFW and not in publications about Heinkels early history
and it seems, that no photos or drawings have survived.

 

[hesham]

New projects for me my dear Jemiba,


and by that time 1915,the Hansa-Brandenburgischen started to develop
the G.I,a twin engined bomber,and many be those projects are its derivative,;
G.II and G.III.

 

[PlanesPictures]

Wingspan 140 m. Crazy... to have better sources I really will try to render it (or them)

 

[Jemiba]

Couldn't find a clue to the kind of construction, that would have been used, but with a span of 140m, I think,
the designers were stretching the technology of their days to its limits !

Just as a remark: Those Adlershof projects are already mentioned in Haddow/Grosz "The German Giants", Putnam,
1962. It is said, that the drawings were "discovered among a pile of Zeppelin material" and although I don't know, if it was
already included in the original 1962 issue, I would regard them as authentic. Nevertheless, when searching, I stumbled
across a well known name quite often (http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/pdf/Archive/Rec/rec.aviation.military/2009-08/msg00273.pdf ),
so I would recommend to handle at least information from the internet with caution !

 

[hesham]

Hi,


did anyone hear about AGO R giant bomber project ?.