German VTOL saucer 1944 ?

XP67_Moonbat said:
With that sort of talk, we run the risk of degenerating into ATS.

A fate to be feared and despised. However, I suspect the reason for the original posting of the Cooper review was to point out that it ain't exactly the most reliable source. That was certainly Dr. House's response to it.

There are quite enough websites and forums online catering to the whackadoodle re-writing of aerospace history. Let not this forum follow that path.
 
shockonlip said:
joncarrfarrelly said:
Well Stargazer you just went into the whack-job file. Enjoy your stay.

Jeez!

I guess you better put me there too.

I hate to be dishonest.

...

It's at this point where I'm tempted to post an animated gif of a man's head exploding (typically from "Scanners"), but I'm going to try out that "tact" thing I hear all the kids talking about these days.
 
I think we probably should operate a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on whether any forum members subscribe to any particular conspiracy theories.

This probably isn't the place to discuss it.
 
Let it be clear: I never wanted to discuss UFOs here, I just said that one ought to be able to express a diverging opinion without being ridiculed, harrassed or banned because that particular opinion does not correspond to that of the majority. Also I never even remotely associated these would-be advanced 1944 German craft with "saucers", "aliens" or anything like that.

"Don't ask don't tell" is indeed the best attitude when it comes to political opinions or religious belief in general, especially on a forum. Conspiracy theories can also be added to the list, and as you rightly said, there are forums for such discussions. This being said, although I don't want my neighbors to try and convert me to their respective religions or opinions, it is of interest for me to know where they stand, if only to avoid offending them or bringing up certain subjects.
 
"...but then thousands of historical events we take as hard fact can only be traced to the written testimony of those who claim they happened"

I think, we take historical events as fact, if they had consequences for our presence. If not, they are
forgotten in a matter of years. Sometimes the reasons and details of such events may be not that
clear, but their occurrence is proven by their still confirmable results. An example: Unquestionable
there was a historical event on 9/11, if terror or conspiracy doesn't matter, but the WTC was
destroyed.
No fundamental problems in believing in german flying saucers/anti-gravity/castle in the artic, etc. ....
but where are still confirmable results ? Without, it shouldn't be a theme here, I think.
 
No, dudes, you don't understand.

I'm not a Nazi disk freak.

I don't find anything Stargazer said on this list to be wacky,
and I've read the applicable sections of Cooper's book and don't
find the historical reporting of his experiences wacky.

So maybe that means I belong to the wacky list as well.

Cooper is interested in the disk subject because as a fighter
pilot flying over Europe he saw them when he and fellow pilots
in his squadron were scrambled, in their F-86's, to intercept
them. He tells quite an interesting story of that.

And, later, after graduating with honors with an Aero Engineering
degree from AFIT at WPAFB in Ohio, and then graduating from
USAF Test Pilot School at Edwards, and working in the fighter
dept. of the Experimantal Flight Test Engineering section as a
test pilot and project manager, a few of the guys working for
him were shooting video of their testing out on the lakebed one
day, when one of those things landed nearby, in broad daylight.
So of course They shot video of it and brought it back to show the
boss (Cooper). He called the Pentagon as instructed, and they told
him to develop the film, no prints, and lock it in a courier bag
and send it ASAP on the base commanding general's plane to D.C..
This is also in the book with more detail. So in this incident,
he was just following orders.

Both of these were BEFORE he became a Mercury Astronaut. It didn't
seem to impact that selection of him at all.

Since this subject has no public science behind it, there is no
direction that people can grab hold of. Some people, when they
have an experience like Cooper's believe it all, others are
more selective. Imagine the dilemma they find themselves in. They
have seen something that MAY (MAYBE NOT TOO) indicate that there
is something to this but there is nothing after that but wild
speculation.

So I see the Admin here trying to maintain control, which I agree
with, but I am also pointing out some things which bother me
and trying to set them straight.

I didn't communicate it very well earlier.

I'm still not sure I'm happy with my communication here.
 
Did a quick search on Gordon Cooper and came up with this interesting article:

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cooper_questioned_000929.html

Which after reading makes me personally see him as a not very credible story/fact source.

Chiz,
Barry
 
XP67_Moonbat said:
Hence it's nickname,the "bierdeckel", or beer mug lig. :D

If I remember my grade school German, and later considerable research under the auspices of the Danish Beer Enthusiast's Organization ( ;)), a "bierdeckel" is one of those carboard doohickeys you put your beer glass (or lemonade glass, for any teetotallers out there) on at the bar.

Any native German-speakers are, of course, welcome to correct me.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

PS: I was going to admit that this post was rather off-topic, but then again, it has to do with the correct translation of the nickname of a project aircraft, so I would suppose it's OK.
 
Lauge said:
XP67_Moonbat said:
Hence it's nickname,the "bierdeckel", or beer mug lig. :D

If I remember my grade school German, and later considerable research under the auspices of the Danish Beer Enthusiast's Organization ( ;)), a "bierdeckel" is one of those carboard doohickeys you put your beer glass (or lemonade glass, for any teetotallers out there) on at the bar.

Any native German-speakers are, of course, welcome to correct me.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

PS: I was going to admit that this post was rather off-topic, but then again, it has to do with the correct translation of the nickname of a project aircraft, so I would suppose it's OK.



From http://www.telocompro.es/jarra-de-cerveza-alemana-271300
 

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Barrington Bond said:
Did a quick search on Gordon Cooper and came up with this interesting article:

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cooper_questioned_000929.html

Which after reading makes me personally see him as a not very credible story/fact source.

Chiz,
Barry

You read Oberg. I read Cooper, and now I've read Oberg too.

Anytime Baby!
Larry
 
From Aviatik magazine 03,


here is a strange aircraft Model with a disc-wing,I hope my dear Jemiba translate it,
to know if it is real design or not ?.
 

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XP67_Moonbat said:
I had read the "bierdeckel" things years ago, memory's probably a little hazy. My bad

Not having much grasp of the German language (some might say English too) I thought a bierdeckel was a beer mat, as in beermat/back of a fag packet/back of an envelope design. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? I did ask a native speaker of German, an engineer, about this.

Chris

PS Of course, the very idea of German engineers designing things on the backs of fag packets/envelopes/beermat is, of course, ridiculous and I must apologise for even thinking this.
 
"Arhur Sack was by no means the only one considering aircraft with a low
span/chord ratio. In the Detsches Museum, Munich this wind tunnel model
can be seen. During my visit, the rooms wre just about to be renovated, so
an attendant could only tell me, that it was from the time 1939 to 45"

Not really eye-opening, if you'll tell me the source, I would try to mail the question
to the museum, although succes cannot be granted.

And yes, a "Bierdeckel" is a beermat, but here it's meaning is less clear to me. Could
have been used, as "on the back of an envelope", but could also be a nickname because
of the shape and may even have had a somewhat dismissive meaning then.

And I think, there's no need to apologise, Chris ! You perhaps know my opinion, that a
lot of those late WW II German designs had their source in the heavy consumption of
beer by those designers, who know for sure, that the war was long lost and their doing
already pointless. But forced to go on, they drowned there sorrows and frustration with
alcohol and the beermat was nearer then, than the drawing board. ;)
 
Thank you my dear Jemiba,


and the source as I mentioned, Aviatik: Deutsche Fluggeschichte No.3,magazine.
 
When I was a kid, I had a book on UFOs (one of the Usborne ones, I think) and that covered, among other things, rational explanations for "sightings". One or two Nazi projects did feature, but only as "experimental saucer-shaped-wing aircraft" (possibly the Sack saucer detailed above) that were very clearly prop-driven.


IMO the best response to Nazi UFO stuff is to put on the film Iron Sky, crack open a beer, and have a good laugh.
 
Still no answer fom the Deutsches Museum (of course, for such questions you've to expect
somewhat onger times), but I think, we've seen something like that cigar with a plate on it
before: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4836.msg178419.html#msg178419
Do you found it ? It's in the lower left corner, very small, but still recognisable, I think.
So I could imagine, that it actually is a french model.
 
My dear Jemiba,


Of course I know Couzinet patent,but there is some differences between them.
 
First, it was just an idea and second, if so, we could hardly expect the wind tunnel
model to be identical to such a relatively crude sketch in a patent file.
I still hope for an answer of the museum, let's see ! :)
 
My dear Jemiba,


I hope we get a new project,you know I am starving to earn more and more.
 
We have a topic on Arthur Sack:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15255.0

May I suggest that it be moved to the Early Projects section instead of The Bar? Thanks.
 
OK my dear Skyblazer,


and I hope my dear Jemiba do it.
 
The riddle here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6330.msg221827.html#msg221827
still was unanswered, my mail to the museum led to nothing, but Wurger was much more
succesful, he even got additional pictures (see below) ! Congrats and many thanks for sharing !
Looking at that cutout from a drawing we now know for sure:
- It was a model made, or at least used by the "Deutsche Forschungsanstalt für Luft-und Raumfahrt"
(German research institute for aviation and spaceflight) in Braunschweig in 1963, so no "early
project".
- The drawing has the designation "Lagereinbau Nabenscheibe" (approx. installation of the bearing
in the hub disk), which tells us, that it wasn't a fixed disk wing, but a rotatable installation.

Don't know, what it is exactly, but it could be a design for a retractable rotor, I think. When we
know have more information, we'll split it from this thread.

Thanks again for your effort, Wurger !
 

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Many many thanks to you my dears Jemiba and Wurger,


but the history is mystery,and may be the Aviation Magazine means they studied it many years
before displaying.
 
The drawing gives the date quite clearly, I think. The shape reminds me on something
like the Bölkow heli with Derschmidt rotor, you posted here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3144.msg25404.html#msg25404
Telescopic rotors were en vogue then, too and looking at the tail of that model, it
says "helicopter" to me, especially as there seems to have been a variant without a tail plane, too.
As you can see, different sizes of that hub disk were tested and at least the smaller ones were
absolutely insufficient, if just used as a fixed circular wing, to my opinion.
And as the caption of that photo said quite downright, the explanation was given by a warden
in the museum, who thought it to be from the pre-war era.
 
OK my dear Jemiba,


and there is some different between those two Models,may be a variants as you suggest.
 
Hi,


here is the Messerschmitt/Lippisch Kreisflugel J-1253 flying saucer
 

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From Aero Journal 31.
 

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moin1900 said:
-It was only a "DENKMODELL"

Translates roughly as "thought experiment" or "concept model". Which is probably all it ever was, if indeed it existed at all. As others have pointed out, the whole "Advanced German WWII Projects" scene has become contaminated with so much weapons-grade BS that it's definitely a case of Caveat Emptor!

Having said that, could such a thought experiment/model have been created in Germany in the last days of WWII ? Why not....German aircraft designers and scientists investigated a whole range of advanced (for the time) aerodynamic concepts (see, I said "aerodynamic"! Not a word about anti-gravity, cold fusion, nuclear bombs or trips to Andromeda.... ;D ), so why not a disc-shaped, twin-encapsulated-rotor VTOL aircraft using magnetic bearings for the rotors ?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark
Sure beats being handed a panzerfaust and pointed toward the Russian front.
 
1938: Henri Coanda patents his Lenticular Aerodyne. It is a classic biconvex flying saucer. This is the same man who is known for the "Coanda Effect." He was living and working in France when the war started.

During the war, Josef Andreas Epp does development work on a similar craft. See https://www.amazon.de/Die-Realität-Flugscheiben-Gernot-Geise/dp/3895396052/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&qid=1625252971&refinements=p_27:Andreas+Epp&s=books&sr=1-2&text=Andreas+Epp

1945: Henri Coanda is being sought by the French authorities for collaboration with the Germans. He is located by a combined Anglo-American intelligence team and brought to the United States.
 
Why use four small rotors when one large rotor is generally more efficient? One large rotor also has greater area because it completely fills the useable area n the middle of the disc, with less lift lost to rotor tip votices..
I suspect that it was in an effort to to improve manoeuvrability while maintaining stability and overall performance.
 
Slightly off-topic but, some years back, I noticed a colleague with notorious book by English researcher about the Nazties' nuclear program, anti-gravity etc etc.

The infamous glowing 'Bell' report caught my eye. IMHO, it had nothing to do with claimed anti-gravity and/or nuclear piles, but was a small calutron, barely evolved beyond its ancestral cyclotron...
 

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