Huh.
German Atomic Bombs in WW2
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Huh.
Not relevant to the topic at hand.
You cannot draw the conclusion "the Nazis had working atomic bombs" from that paragraph.
Research is not single focus. It consists of a collection of documents written and issued by different intelligence groups. The OSS, ONI, SHAEF, FIAT, ALSOS Mission, and others. The records are not just held at NARA. The British T-Force (T for Target) located certain installations related to atomic research. They operated under the cover name: 30 Assault Unit.
Dilandu
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Insisting reports were:
Mistaken
Less (than) honourable
- and included -
Fakery
Contrarianism
Dubious politics
Agendas
General nonsense
(Not) remotely credible
This proves my point. Denial, not the documents, is what's important here.
Dilandu
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They obviously include fakery, because you still failed to give any even remotely plausible explanation how geniune document might be blatantly addressed to the wrong person.
William Pellas replied to that.
dannydale
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Dilandu
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His explanation did not stand to Okkam's razor. It boiled down to "maybe Antonov was kinda informally called completely other title in formal documents", which, frankly, made not even zero, but negative sense.
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30 AU was not a cover name, they'd been operational since at least September 1942 and participated in the Torch landings. Ian Fleming (yes, that Fleming), pitched the need for an intelligence gathering unit to his boss the Director of Naval Intelligence, and was pivotal in their creation. They were a Royal Marines (plus extras) unit specifically focused on technical, particularly naval, intelligence and operations ranged from North Africa, to the Balkans, to France, and to Norway, which is rather a perplexing range for a unit you are claiming was focused on the German nuclear programme.
IIRC (my book on 30AU is 300 miles away) they did end up seizing some data relating to the German nuclear programme, but it was far from being their raison d'existence - these are the people who took 30 tonnes of intelligence out of Doenitz's Paris headquarters.
30 AU was reformed in 2010 as 30 Commando Information Exploitation Group.
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And is precisely the kind of information that would have been extensively documented by military historians.
Sherman Tank
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No, this is how historical analysis works. You have to interrogate primary source documents and not just take them at face value. Otherwise you have to take, say, antebellum Southern medicos seriously when they claimed drapetomania was a real condition and not just people not wanting to be slaves.
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If we took all German WWII documents at face value we'd have to treat the Thule-Gesellschaft as a serious scientific institute.
Sherman Tank
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A less dramatic example of historical primary sources being inaccurate: the US Navy believed the Japanese had an aircraft carrier named Ryukaku in service during World War Two and referred to it in some reports. No such ship existed, it was a translation error, but the name is still in the reports.
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Isn’t Germans test in 1996 potential place near Ohrdrug for radiation and they found nothing?
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And for me more believable story is just explosion of liquid oxygen filled Dewars by scientists that want to survive till end of the war and not die from SS hands. This was just theatre. Otherwise in alternative timeline in 1946 US and Russia were to perform test of new designs. 100g uranium bomb instead 5kg is no brainer.
Dilandu
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Come on, isn't it obvious that super-duper-secret ultra-advanced Nazi 100-gram noiseless atomic bomb, described by edwest2 and williamjpellas emit only pure Aryan radiation, that could be detected only by super-duper Annenerbe flying disc detectors?
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Re: Zinsser, his name was in fact Rudolf. "Hans" was a name that was mistakenly assigned to him in one of the sources that I had read regarding the USAAF - COMNAVEU intelligence report. As others have noted, in the report itself he is simply identified as "a man named Zinsser" who is said to be "a flak rocket expert". Zinsser's description is listed as "Enclosure (A)", which in turn is part of a longer report titled ""Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb," A.P.I.U. (Ninth Air Force) 96/1945 APO 696, U S Army, 19 August 1945."
47. A man named ZINSSER, a Flak rocket expert, mentioned what he noticed one day: In the beginning of Oct, 1944 I flew from Ludwigslust (south of Lubeck), about 12 to 15 km from an atomic bomb test station, when I noticed a strong, bright illumination of the whole atmosphere, lasting about 2 seconds.
48. The clearly visible pressure wave escaped the approaching and following cloud formed by the explosion. This wave had a diameter of about 1 km when it became visible and the color of the cloud changed frequently. It became dotted after a short period of darkness with all sorts of light spots, which were, in contrast to normal explosions, of a pale blue color.
49. After about 10 seconds the sharp outlines of the explosion cloud disappeared, then the cloud began to take on a lighter color against the sky covered with a gray overcast. The diameter of the still visible pressure wave was at least 9000 meters while remaining visible for at least 15 seconds.
50. Personal observations of the colors of the explosion cloud found an almost blue-violet shade. During this manifestation reddishcolored rims were to be seen, changing to a dirty-like shade in very rapid succession.
51. The combustion was lightly felt from my observation plane in the form of pulling and pushing.
52. About one hour later I started with an He 111 from the A/D [1] at Ludwigslust and flew in an easterly direction. Shortly after the start I passed through the almost complete overcast (between 3000 and 4000 meter altitude). A cloud shaped like a mushroom with turbulent, billowing sections (at about 7000 meter altitude) stood, without any seeming connections, over the spot where the explosion took place. Strong electrical disturbances and the impossibility to continue radio communication as by lightning, turned up.
53. Because of the P-38s operating in the area Wittenberg- Mersburg 1 had to turn to the north but observed a better visibility at the bottom of the cloud where the explosion occurred (sic). Note: It does not seem very clear to me why these experiments took place in such crowded areas.
The larger report is itself quite interesting. I have a copy in my files.
47. A man named ZINSSER, a Flak rocket expert, mentioned what he noticed one day: In the beginning of Oct, 1944 I flew from Ludwigslust (south of Lubeck), about 12 to 15 km from an atomic bomb test station, when I noticed a strong, bright illumination of the whole atmosphere, lasting about 2 seconds.
48. The clearly visible pressure wave escaped the approaching and following cloud formed by the explosion. This wave had a diameter of about 1 km when it became visible and the color of the cloud changed frequently. It became dotted after a short period of darkness with all sorts of light spots, which were, in contrast to normal explosions, of a pale blue color.
49. After about 10 seconds the sharp outlines of the explosion cloud disappeared, then the cloud began to take on a lighter color against the sky covered with a gray overcast. The diameter of the still visible pressure wave was at least 9000 meters while remaining visible for at least 15 seconds.
50. Personal observations of the colors of the explosion cloud found an almost blue-violet shade. During this manifestation reddishcolored rims were to be seen, changing to a dirty-like shade in very rapid succession.
51. The combustion was lightly felt from my observation plane in the form of pulling and pushing.
52. About one hour later I started with an He 111 from the A/D [1] at Ludwigslust and flew in an easterly direction. Shortly after the start I passed through the almost complete overcast (between 3000 and 4000 meter altitude). A cloud shaped like a mushroom with turbulent, billowing sections (at about 7000 meter altitude) stood, without any seeming connections, over the spot where the explosion took place. Strong electrical disturbances and the impossibility to continue radio communication as by lightning, turned up.
53. Because of the P-38s operating in the area Wittenberg- Mersburg 1 had to turn to the north but observed a better visibility at the bottom of the cloud where the explosion occurred (sic). Note: It does not seem very clear to me why these experiments took place in such crowded areas.
The larger report is itself quite interesting. I have a copy in my files.
williamjpellas
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Re: Karlsch and Rider. I did not "rattle off" a list of places Karlsch visited. I listed the places and the archives that Rider visited. The reconstruction of events I am describing in this thread is rooted much more in Rider's research than in that of Karlsch. I did not "admit" anything about Karlsch other than that he didn't fully understand exactly what he was looking at in the Soviet-GRU reports which he dug out of Kremlin archives. Speaking of which, as edwest2 notes, the near uniform response in this thread from most who have commented is that they stuff fingers in their ears and shout that the documents are fake. Has anyone stopped to ask, even for a moment, whether they might be authentic? Mathias Uhl and other experts say that they are. Rider believes they are genuine, as did Karlsch and Mark Walker. I do, too. I guess we are all cranks, then?
Re: Romersa. I said his book first appeared in 1955, which it did. You are speaking here of a newspaper article from 1947---which I had never before heard of, btw, so it would appear that Romersa started talking about what he had seen at Rugen even earlier than I thought he had.
Re: Do you mean his book Infiltration? By all accounts a rather technocratic account of the industrial history that seemed to outline his personal battle against Himmler. Yes, that's the one. Contrary to his lies in response to Justice Jackson while on the stand at Nuremberg, Speer told quite a different story in 1981.
First, the exchange at Nuremberg:
From the Yale University Avalon Project Transcript of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal:
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And certain experiments were also conducted and certain researches conducted in atomic energy, were they not?
SPEER: We had not got as far as that, unfortunately, because the finest experts we had in atomic research had emigrated to America, and this had thrown us back a great deal in our research, so that we still needed another year or two in order to achieve any results in the splitting of the atom.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The policy of driving people out who didn't agree with Germany hadn't produced very good dividends, had it?
SPEER: Especially in this sphere it was a great disadvantage to us.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I have certain information, which was placed in my hands, of an experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz and I would like to ask you if you heard about it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to find a quick and complete way of destroying people without the delay and trouble of shooting and gassing and burning, as it had been carried out, and this is the experiment, as I am advised. A village, a small village was provisionally erected, with temporary structures, and in it approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By means of this newly invented weapon of destruction, these 20,000 people were eradicated almost instantaneously, and in such a way that there was no trace left of them; that it developed, the explosive developed, temperatures of from 400° to 500° centigrade and destroyed them without leaving any trace at all.
Do you know about that experiment?
SPEER: No, and I consider it utterly improbable. If we had had such a weapon under preparation, I should have known about it. But we did not have such a weapon. It is clear that in chemical warfare attempts were made on both sides to carry out research on all the weapons one could think of, because one did not know which party would start chemical warfare first.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The reports, then, of a new and secret weapon were exaggerated for the purpose of keeping the German people in the war?
SPEER: That was the case mostly during the last phase of the war. From August, or rather June or July 1944 on I very often went to the front. I visited about 40 front-line divisions in their sectors and could not help seeing that the troops, just like the German people, were given hopes about a new weapon coming, new weapons and wonder-weapons which, without requiring the use of soldiers, without military forces, would guarantee victory. In this belief lies the secret why so many people in Germany offered their lives, although common sense told them that the war was over. They believed that within the near future this new weapon would arrive. I wrote to Hitler about it and also tried in different speeches, even before Goebbels' propaganda leaders, to work against this belief. Both Hitler and Goebbels told me, however, that this was no propaganda of theirs but that it was a belief which had grown up amongst the people. Only in the dock here in Nuremberg, I was told by Fritzsche that this propaganda was spread systematically among the people through some channels or other, and that SS Standartenfuehrer Berg was responsible for it. Many things have become clear to me since, because this man Berg, as a representative of the Ministry of Propaganda, had often taken part in meetings, in big sessions of my Ministry, as he was writing articles about these sessions. There he heard of our future plans and then used this knowledge to tell the people about them with more imagination than truth (end of quote).
You see? Nothing but propaganda, and not even that, really. Just some wishful thinking on the part of desperate everyday Germans, according to Speer at Nuremberg.
Now let's see what Speer wrote in his 1981 book, Infiltration: How Heinrich Himmler Schemed to Build an SS Industrial Empire:
In my ministry, we had long since come to realize than an atomic bomb (that was the only thing he could have meant) could not be produced before the winter of 1945... Himmler was reticent in the area of atomic research. Nevertheless, he rebuked me for neglecting it, precisely because of the consequences of nuclear fission. Himmler’s letter is not extant. But my reply shows that I was forced to defend myself. On September 23, 1944, “in order to prevent misunderstandings,” I informed Himmler of the following: “There can be no doubt that research must go on even in wartime, and indeed very intensively... Ultimately, however, the main issue in research is that projects advantageous to the war effort should be given preference...” Ohlendorf [one of Himmler’s deputies] interfered to a huge extent with atomic research in a letter of January 25, 1945. He accused me of neglecting a discipline that had been labeled “Jewish physics” for many years, and he rebuked me for not paying the necessary attention to atomic research... As a precaution, I had already written to Professor Gerlach (the head of all theoretical physics in the Third Reich--WP) on December 19, 1944: “Because of urgent tasks, I am unable to come into personal contact with you and your work. However, I place extraordinary value on research in the field of nuclear physics and I am following your work with great expectations...” All these orders and arrogance on the part of the SS and especially Himmler reduced our capacity for research and development and created uncertainty about the command channels and areas of responsibility.
Dr. Rider summarizes:
“Speer confirmed that:
• Heinrich Himmler was strongly interested in developing nuclear weapons.
• Interest in the German nuclear program intensified further in 1944 (the Allies invaded Normandy on 6 June 1944, and there was an attempted assassination of Hitler on 20 July 1944).
• There was political rivalry for the control and direction of the German nuclear program. This information is consistent with Werner Grothmann’s account of the German nuclear program.”
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Here is a list of known primary sources regarding the purported test of a German atomic weapon in Poland in late 1944. From page 3209 in Forgotten Creators, Appendix D:
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Sherman Tank
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Eisegesis? It's flummery, as Nero Wolfe would say.
In his remarks, Speer had to be careful. His fate rested on his testimony. Allied interrogators did not believe Wernher von Braun was completely honest with them regarding the location of certain documents they had learned about. It was recommended that he be reinterrogated.
The combat capabilities of the Me 262 should not be underestimated. Or that of the Ar 234. It appears that some think Me 262 pilots approached American bombers in a haphazard way. Not true. Only a short burst of the explosive ammunition fired by the Me 262 could bring down a bomber. A test was conducted by American technicians who discovered that one shell could destroy the tail of a B-24.
The fact that Zinsser was described as a flak rocket expert is significant. Although some U.S. newspaper accounts were censored during the war by the Office of War Information, and by newspaper editors, flak rockets were seen by U.S. bomber crews on more than one occasion.
New York Times, 4.12.44
"Rockets in Reich Defense
"U.S. Bomber Crews See 'Lots' of Them, Also Nazi Jet Planes
London, Dec. 4 (UP) The Nazis shot "baby V-2's" or anti-aircraft rockets at formations of American Flying Fortresses that attacked Mainz, one of the German rail cities pounded by the Allied air fleets today.
"We got a lot more rockets than we usually do," said Lieut. Robert Dams of Milwaukee, a bombardier.
"The flak was light, but the Nazis mingled it with rockets which left heavy trails of bluish white smoke," related Lieut. David Barnett of Bromley, Ky, a navigator.
Several Nazi jet-propelled planes were spotted in the Bebra area, east of Cologne.
"We saw a Messerschmitt 262 jet job, but as soon as three Mustangs and Thunderbolts appeared it disappeared straight into the sun," said Sgt. Joseph Grunen of Detroit, a Liberator nose gunner.
The combat capabilities of the Me 262 should not be underestimated. Or that of the Ar 234. It appears that some think Me 262 pilots approached American bombers in a haphazard way. Not true. Only a short burst of the explosive ammunition fired by the Me 262 could bring down a bomber. A test was conducted by American technicians who discovered that one shell could destroy the tail of a B-24.
The fact that Zinsser was described as a flak rocket expert is significant. Although some U.S. newspaper accounts were censored during the war by the Office of War Information, and by newspaper editors, flak rockets were seen by U.S. bomber crews on more than one occasion.
New York Times, 4.12.44
"Rockets in Reich Defense
"U.S. Bomber Crews See 'Lots' of Them, Also Nazi Jet Planes
London, Dec. 4 (UP) The Nazis shot "baby V-2's" or anti-aircraft rockets at formations of American Flying Fortresses that attacked Mainz, one of the German rail cities pounded by the Allied air fleets today.
"We got a lot more rockets than we usually do," said Lieut. Robert Dams of Milwaukee, a bombardier.
"The flak was light, but the Nazis mingled it with rockets which left heavy trails of bluish white smoke," related Lieut. David Barnett of Bromley, Ky, a navigator.
Several Nazi jet-propelled planes were spotted in the Bebra area, east of Cologne.
"We saw a Messerschmitt 262 jet job, but as soon as three Mustangs and Thunderbolts appeared it disappeared straight into the sun," said Sgt. Joseph Grunen of Detroit, a Liberator nose gunner.
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williamjpellas
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Again, no need to fret over the V-2, it was designed to lob a 1-tonne HE warhead over a reasonable distance with reasonable accuracy to hit a big sprawling target like a city for the purposes of strategic intimidation and sapping of morale. It wasn't a super-weapon, it wasn't an ICBM, it was just a highly technical and highly expensive way of lobbing some HE around given German bombers (and V-1 cruise missiles) were getting hacked out of the sky.
Yeah, except it states specifically in the Soviet-GRU papers that everyone here shrieks are fakes that it was intended for use in delivering German nuclear weapons. Did this part somehow escape your notice, or did you just ignore it without reading?
Quote:
"Fairing.
A fairing made of a light alloy can be installed on top of the armored casing for future installation on a rocket of the V-type."
Unquote.
This means the armored casing for the atomic bomb described in the same Soviet intelligence report, quite clearly. American intelligence reports said the same thing. For example:
Air Intelligence Report No. 100-13/1-100, Significant Developments and Trends in Aircraft and Aircraft Engines, Antiaircraft Guided Missiles (15 June 1946). pp. 3, 90–93. [NARA RG 38, Entry 98C, Box 11, Folder TSC # 3001–3100]
[...] b. Russia is known to have acquired German technicians and V-weapon production and experimental sites. [...] In addition, German developments in the atomic energy field and the possibilities for use of this energy as a guided missile warhead are known to the Russians. (3) Step rockets. This type of rocket had been considered by the Germans who anticipated ranges of 3,000 miles or more with successors of the V-2. Such a rocket would consist of a main body containing the demolition charge and control units and two or more detachable sections containing propulsion units. These sections would be dropped from the missile as they were exhausted in flight. Such a rocket in the hands of the Russians would make the transpolar routes probable tactical approaches. [...] e. Russian Atomic Energy. The development of atomic weapons and guided rocket projectiles go hand in hand. It was the Germans who realized that the rocket was “the ideal vehicle for atomic warhead” and it has been established that they intended the A-4 (V-2) rocket to be such a vehicle. In the construction of a long-range rocket, space allotted to payload is of necessity reduced to a minimum by the increase in space allotted to fuel. Adaptability of the atomic warhead to such a missile can be fully appreciated because the ratio of destructive power to unit weight is far in excess of conventional explosives and a radical increase in the destructive power is not accompanied by a similar increase in volume of the warhead.
Then there's this, from the same document:
g. Heavy Hydrogen Bomb. In Germany a letter was picked up by the American censors. It had been written by a German desirous of exchanging information for an opportunity to go to the United States. The writer professed knowledge of “heavy water” research in Germany and of an “even more deadly weapon than the atomic bomb”. h. German Heavy Hydrogen Bomb. During 1943 the Germans were experimenting with the production of “heavy water” in Norway. Their installation at Rjukan, Norway was deemed important enough at that time to warrant a visit from the heavy bombers of the Eighth Air Force. It was evident that the Germans recognized the potentialities of “heavy water” as a source of Heavy Hydrogen and were taking advantage of the abundance of electric power available in Norway for the production of this substance. The war brought the German activity in connection with “heavy water” to a close but the question can now be posed, “Have the Russians obtained German personnel formerly employed in the project and if so will they exploit them in an effort to devise an atomic weapon which requires none of the radio active minerals so closely guarded throughout the world?” If the Russians are successful in this attempt, they will have within their grasp the new atomic weapon which is reported to have made the Uranium bomb obsolete. Research in the United States confirms the comparison of the Heavy Hydrogen bomb to the Uranium bomb.
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Here is an OSS report which also talks about V-2s armed with nuclear warheads:
OSS Report No. B-624. 20 November 1944. Secret Weapons. [NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 171, Folder 32.7003-3 GERMANY: US Wartime Positive Int. (Nov. 44–June 45)]
The source, a highly placed and sober-minded neutral industrialist, reports the following conversation with a prominent German in mid-October 1944. According to the testimony of this German, well-informed circles in Germany say that the employment of secret weapons V-2 and V-3 was set back as a result of the invasion of the Continent which came before the moment anticipated by the Germans. Still according to this German, the final development of the new weapons is supposed to have been interrupted by the invasion and at the time of the conversation this work had still not been completed. However, work and tests are being pushed very hard and the new arms are expected to come into play before mid-winter. On the new arms themselves the sub-source gave the following details: V-2 is supposed to be an anti-aircraft weapon containing an explosive so powerful that by its mere deflagration everything within a radius of one kilometer would be literally pulverized. (The subsource used the term: “Destruction of atoms.”) The Germans pin great hopes on this new device; they hope that with the help of this arm they will be able to destroy or at least completely handicap all the Allied air forces in a short time. The new weapon V-3 is said to be identical with V-2 with the sole difference that it is supposed to be destined for use against ground troops and that its power of destruction would cover a radius of about two kilometers. V-3 would be launched against hostile troops on a flat trajectory (en trajectoire tendus). The German informant declared that Nazi leaders are said to be convinced that V-2 and V-3 will assure final victory for the Germans. He himself, however, seemed rather skeptical on this point, particularly because of the fact that in certain German technical circles it is known that the question of the production and use of these new devices is not in a very advanced stage and that trials have not yet given really positive results.
The last sentence obviously runs counter to the evidence describing a successful German nuclear weapon test in October 1944, and possibly another in November---the same month in which the report above was written---but the German nuclear program was also obsessively secretive.
Here is another period piece, in this case a newspaper article which quotes USAAF General William Richardson. This officer was a Major General who in 1947 was Chief of the Guided Missiles Division & Air Defense Division, Office of the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff for Operations, Headquarters US Army Air Forces. In other words, he was in a position to know what was what. He is speaking here about the A-10 missile rather than the A-4 (V-2), but note the last two lines.
Nazis Planned Rocket to Blast N.Y. at 6000 MPH. Indianapolis Times. 2 August 1947, p. 4. A-9 Was Designed to Employ Booster Weighing 190,000 Pounds for Acceleration By Science Service
WASHINGTON, Aug. 2—The Germans planned a bomb to cross the Atlantic and blast New York. It was a rocket to be started on its long journey by another rocket which detached itself when its job was done. This was revealed today by Brig. Gen. William L. Richardson of the U.S. Army Air Forces. Gen. Richardson, chief of the A.A.F. Guided Missiles and Air Defense Division, spoke as a guest of Watson Davis, director of Science Service, on “Adventures in Science,” heard over the Columbia network. The Germans, he said, developed several rockets known as the “A” series. The V-2, used against London, was one of these.
Although it was the only one of this series to be used operationally in the last war, it is not hard to visualize what might have been in store for the Allies had the Germans been given sufficient time to complete developments. Acid Used in Fuel Each of the “A” series was developed primarily for research, with the exception of the A-4, later known as the V-2. The A-10 was the end result toward which this whole program was directed. This is the weapon which the Germans expected to use in bombing New York. The A-10 was described by him as a booster rocket placed behind the A-9, giving it two-step cooperation to secure ranges of 3000 miles. The A-9 was much like the A-4, more familiarly called the V-2, with wings added to give increased range and using acid as an oxidizer in its fuel. The A-10 was never actually constructed. However, all design studies and computations had been completed. It appears that it could have been built and used if the Germans had been given another year of development and production. Speed Put at 6000 M. P. H. The total weight of the A-10 was to have been 190,000 pounds. The weapon was nearly 12 feet in diameter and 25 feet long. The 29,000-pound A-9 was to have been accelerated to a speed of 2500 miles per hour by the use of the A-10 as a launching rocket, which detached itself and would drop free after serving its purpose. It was the A-9 that would reach the target. Its rocket motor would be turned on when the A10 dropped. This would increase its speed to about 6000 miles an hour. It would have carried a warhead of about 2000 pounds. This is a payload of only 1 per cent of the starting weight of the weapon, but there is evidence to believe, he stated, that the Germans intended to utilize an atomic warhead which would have made this weapon extremely deadly.
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BTW, there is a page in Dr. Rider's book which serves as an internal index of around 40 direct and indirect references made by wartime figures to V-2 and other German missiles being intended to deliver nuclear warheads. You can see all of this and more evidence for yourself. It's on page 4137.
Yeah, except it states specifically in the Soviet-GRU papers that everyone here shrieks are fakes that it was intended for use in delivering German nuclear weapons. Did this part somehow escape your notice, or did you just ignore it without reading?
Quote:
"Fairing.
A fairing made of a light alloy can be installed on top of the armored casing for future installation on a rocket of the V-type."
Unquote.
This means the armored casing for the atomic bomb described in the same Soviet intelligence report, quite clearly. American intelligence reports said the same thing. For example:
Air Intelligence Report No. 100-13/1-100, Significant Developments and Trends in Aircraft and Aircraft Engines, Antiaircraft Guided Missiles (15 June 1946). pp. 3, 90–93. [NARA RG 38, Entry 98C, Box 11, Folder TSC # 3001–3100]
[...] b. Russia is known to have acquired German technicians and V-weapon production and experimental sites. [...] In addition, German developments in the atomic energy field and the possibilities for use of this energy as a guided missile warhead are known to the Russians. (3) Step rockets. This type of rocket had been considered by the Germans who anticipated ranges of 3,000 miles or more with successors of the V-2. Such a rocket would consist of a main body containing the demolition charge and control units and two or more detachable sections containing propulsion units. These sections would be dropped from the missile as they were exhausted in flight. Such a rocket in the hands of the Russians would make the transpolar routes probable tactical approaches. [...] e. Russian Atomic Energy. The development of atomic weapons and guided rocket projectiles go hand in hand. It was the Germans who realized that the rocket was “the ideal vehicle for atomic warhead” and it has been established that they intended the A-4 (V-2) rocket to be such a vehicle. In the construction of a long-range rocket, space allotted to payload is of necessity reduced to a minimum by the increase in space allotted to fuel. Adaptability of the atomic warhead to such a missile can be fully appreciated because the ratio of destructive power to unit weight is far in excess of conventional explosives and a radical increase in the destructive power is not accompanied by a similar increase in volume of the warhead.
Then there's this, from the same document:
g. Heavy Hydrogen Bomb. In Germany a letter was picked up by the American censors. It had been written by a German desirous of exchanging information for an opportunity to go to the United States. The writer professed knowledge of “heavy water” research in Germany and of an “even more deadly weapon than the atomic bomb”. h. German Heavy Hydrogen Bomb. During 1943 the Germans were experimenting with the production of “heavy water” in Norway. Their installation at Rjukan, Norway was deemed important enough at that time to warrant a visit from the heavy bombers of the Eighth Air Force. It was evident that the Germans recognized the potentialities of “heavy water” as a source of Heavy Hydrogen and were taking advantage of the abundance of electric power available in Norway for the production of this substance. The war brought the German activity in connection with “heavy water” to a close but the question can now be posed, “Have the Russians obtained German personnel formerly employed in the project and if so will they exploit them in an effort to devise an atomic weapon which requires none of the radio active minerals so closely guarded throughout the world?” If the Russians are successful in this attempt, they will have within their grasp the new atomic weapon which is reported to have made the Uranium bomb obsolete. Research in the United States confirms the comparison of the Heavy Hydrogen bomb to the Uranium bomb.
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Here is an OSS report which also talks about V-2s armed with nuclear warheads:
OSS Report No. B-624. 20 November 1944. Secret Weapons. [NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 171, Folder 32.7003-3 GERMANY: US Wartime Positive Int. (Nov. 44–June 45)]
The source, a highly placed and sober-minded neutral industrialist, reports the following conversation with a prominent German in mid-October 1944. According to the testimony of this German, well-informed circles in Germany say that the employment of secret weapons V-2 and V-3 was set back as a result of the invasion of the Continent which came before the moment anticipated by the Germans. Still according to this German, the final development of the new weapons is supposed to have been interrupted by the invasion and at the time of the conversation this work had still not been completed. However, work and tests are being pushed very hard and the new arms are expected to come into play before mid-winter. On the new arms themselves the sub-source gave the following details: V-2 is supposed to be an anti-aircraft weapon containing an explosive so powerful that by its mere deflagration everything within a radius of one kilometer would be literally pulverized. (The subsource used the term: “Destruction of atoms.”) The Germans pin great hopes on this new device; they hope that with the help of this arm they will be able to destroy or at least completely handicap all the Allied air forces in a short time. The new weapon V-3 is said to be identical with V-2 with the sole difference that it is supposed to be destined for use against ground troops and that its power of destruction would cover a radius of about two kilometers. V-3 would be launched against hostile troops on a flat trajectory (en trajectoire tendus). The German informant declared that Nazi leaders are said to be convinced that V-2 and V-3 will assure final victory for the Germans. He himself, however, seemed rather skeptical on this point, particularly because of the fact that in certain German technical circles it is known that the question of the production and use of these new devices is not in a very advanced stage and that trials have not yet given really positive results.
The last sentence obviously runs counter to the evidence describing a successful German nuclear weapon test in October 1944, and possibly another in November---the same month in which the report above was written---but the German nuclear program was also obsessively secretive.
Here is another period piece, in this case a newspaper article which quotes USAAF General William Richardson. This officer was a Major General who in 1947 was Chief of the Guided Missiles Division & Air Defense Division, Office of the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff for Operations, Headquarters US Army Air Forces. In other words, he was in a position to know what was what. He is speaking here about the A-10 missile rather than the A-4 (V-2), but note the last two lines.
Biography of Major-General William Lloyd Richardson (1901 – 1973), USA
This is a brief biographical sketch of the military career of Major-General William Lloyd Richardson. He was a general during World War Two.
generals.dk
Nazis Planned Rocket to Blast N.Y. at 6000 MPH. Indianapolis Times. 2 August 1947, p. 4. A-9 Was Designed to Employ Booster Weighing 190,000 Pounds for Acceleration By Science Service
WASHINGTON, Aug. 2—The Germans planned a bomb to cross the Atlantic and blast New York. It was a rocket to be started on its long journey by another rocket which detached itself when its job was done. This was revealed today by Brig. Gen. William L. Richardson of the U.S. Army Air Forces. Gen. Richardson, chief of the A.A.F. Guided Missiles and Air Defense Division, spoke as a guest of Watson Davis, director of Science Service, on “Adventures in Science,” heard over the Columbia network. The Germans, he said, developed several rockets known as the “A” series. The V-2, used against London, was one of these.
Although it was the only one of this series to be used operationally in the last war, it is not hard to visualize what might have been in store for the Allies had the Germans been given sufficient time to complete developments. Acid Used in Fuel Each of the “A” series was developed primarily for research, with the exception of the A-4, later known as the V-2. The A-10 was the end result toward which this whole program was directed. This is the weapon which the Germans expected to use in bombing New York. The A-10 was described by him as a booster rocket placed behind the A-9, giving it two-step cooperation to secure ranges of 3000 miles. The A-9 was much like the A-4, more familiarly called the V-2, with wings added to give increased range and using acid as an oxidizer in its fuel. The A-10 was never actually constructed. However, all design studies and computations had been completed. It appears that it could have been built and used if the Germans had been given another year of development and production. Speed Put at 6000 M. P. H. The total weight of the A-10 was to have been 190,000 pounds. The weapon was nearly 12 feet in diameter and 25 feet long. The 29,000-pound A-9 was to have been accelerated to a speed of 2500 miles per hour by the use of the A-10 as a launching rocket, which detached itself and would drop free after serving its purpose. It was the A-9 that would reach the target. Its rocket motor would be turned on when the A10 dropped. This would increase its speed to about 6000 miles an hour. It would have carried a warhead of about 2000 pounds. This is a payload of only 1 per cent of the starting weight of the weapon, but there is evidence to believe, he stated, that the Germans intended to utilize an atomic warhead which would have made this weapon extremely deadly.
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BTW, there is a page in Dr. Rider's book which serves as an internal index of around 40 direct and indirect references made by wartime figures to V-2 and other German missiles being intended to deliver nuclear warheads. You can see all of this and more evidence for yourself. It's on page 4137.
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It is significant! Significantly weird. According to Rider, "although Rudolf Zinsser did not admit it, he had presumably been ordered to make multiple flights over the test area in order to make visual observations of the atomic bomb test, and quite possibly to carry cameras or measuring equipment."
Presumably is one of Rider's favorite words.
But according to the interrogation of Zinsser Rider also quotes, he opened his own laboratory in Czechoslovakia (hundreds of miles away from Rugen) to work on guidance systems in September 1944.
This makes the account even more bizarre. A doctor of engineering "presumably" with his own vital work in Jivka just happens to be employed taking pictures of an atom bomb site in Rugen that's also 12 to 15 km away from Ludwigslust instead of ~200. I hope his guidance systems were better with direction.
williamjpellas
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How about this one, from the AAF Review (Army Air Forces), July 1946?
Charlotte Knight. 1946. German Rocketeers: German Rockets and Guided Missiles Almost Won the War for the Nazis. AAF Review (July) 29:6:24–26, 48.
That the Allies won the war in Europe by a terrifyingly narrow margin is a fact now accepted by almost all military leaders who have seen at first hand Germany’s progress in the guided missiles field. Just how narrow that margin really was will probably be a matter of considerable debate for a long time to come, but many guided missile experts who should know whereof they speak say that it was relatively small. It was too close for comfort, and simply serves to underline even more emphatically the substantial edge the Nazis had in this field. Most Allied rocket experts will now concede that edge to have been at least a 10-year lead in the research and development of guided missiles. [...] At war’s end, in spite of her defeat, Germany’s scientists and technicians had nevertheless left behind them at Peenemunde, Brunswick, Wiener Nieustadt and elsewhere the signposts of future air wars. From the captured results—some in production lines, some in stages of near-completion, and others on paper—we have since learned much that is enlightening, much that is disquieting.
[...] With the hindsight we now have as a result of our discoveries, several things become clear. One is that the Nazis’ oft-repeated threats concerning the “secret weapons” they would shortly direct against the Allies were far from being purely “propaganda.” Hitler had boasted that England and the whole world would soon feel their effect. Examination of Germany’s missiles at war’s end left very little doubt that Der Fuehrer had come uncomfortably close to making good his boast. Also understandable now on the basis of our present knowledge is Germany’s almost suicidal lastditch stand after Allied forces had crossed the Rhine in overwhelming numbers. Assuming that the Nazis were completely whipped, the Allied populace could not understand why they would not give up and put an end to senseless, wholesale slaughter. But German commanders, it now appears, were aware that if they could hold out for just a short time longer they could very well effect at least a stalemate, if not a short-cut victory, on the European battlefront. It is now also fairly generally known that the atomic bomb race was close—again, closer than we care to think about. And paralleling the Nazis’ research on atomic explosives was their accelerated development of the V-2 program. Linking these two projects together makes credible another theory which is current among Allied guided missile groups: namely, that it was the intention of Nazi technicians to put some sort of atomic device in the warhead of the V-2.
Charlotte Knight. 1946. German Rocketeers: German Rockets and Guided Missiles Almost Won the War for the Nazis. AAF Review (July) 29:6:24–26, 48.
That the Allies won the war in Europe by a terrifyingly narrow margin is a fact now accepted by almost all military leaders who have seen at first hand Germany’s progress in the guided missiles field. Just how narrow that margin really was will probably be a matter of considerable debate for a long time to come, but many guided missile experts who should know whereof they speak say that it was relatively small. It was too close for comfort, and simply serves to underline even more emphatically the substantial edge the Nazis had in this field. Most Allied rocket experts will now concede that edge to have been at least a 10-year lead in the research and development of guided missiles. [...] At war’s end, in spite of her defeat, Germany’s scientists and technicians had nevertheless left behind them at Peenemunde, Brunswick, Wiener Nieustadt and elsewhere the signposts of future air wars. From the captured results—some in production lines, some in stages of near-completion, and others on paper—we have since learned much that is enlightening, much that is disquieting.
[...] With the hindsight we now have as a result of our discoveries, several things become clear. One is that the Nazis’ oft-repeated threats concerning the “secret weapons” they would shortly direct against the Allies were far from being purely “propaganda.” Hitler had boasted that England and the whole world would soon feel their effect. Examination of Germany’s missiles at war’s end left very little doubt that Der Fuehrer had come uncomfortably close to making good his boast. Also understandable now on the basis of our present knowledge is Germany’s almost suicidal lastditch stand after Allied forces had crossed the Rhine in overwhelming numbers. Assuming that the Nazis were completely whipped, the Allied populace could not understand why they would not give up and put an end to senseless, wholesale slaughter. But German commanders, it now appears, were aware that if they could hold out for just a short time longer they could very well effect at least a stalemate, if not a short-cut victory, on the European battlefront. It is now also fairly generally known that the atomic bomb race was close—again, closer than we care to think about. And paralleling the Nazis’ research on atomic explosives was their accelerated development of the V-2 program. Linking these two projects together makes credible another theory which is current among Allied guided missile groups: namely, that it was the intention of Nazi technicians to put some sort of atomic device in the warhead of the V-2.
This is the entire problem with the book, all 4,600 pages of it. Rider doesn't care to distinguish between these.
A German invents a hydraulic prosthetic leg and speculates in the future it may be hooked up to an amputee's nerves? "Presumably" there are archives full of Nazi research into neural control of aircraft.
A couple of German engineers offer to "immediately" produce an aircraft with the characteristics of the Horten XVIII for the US? "Presumably" the Horten XVIII was not only completed, it had mature turbofan engines.
The book is full of these leaps of logic, not just the super-secret nuclear chapters. Or perhaps "presumably" Operation Paperclip was a dismal failure because we're not riding Nazi plasma rockets (yes, they're in the book) to Alpha Centauri.
williamjpellas
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What is so weird about a skilled technician in missile guidance systems also serving as an observer of a nuclear test? Any chance Zinsser might have been asked to view the explosion because 1) he was working on the means of delivering a warhead accurately, and 2) he was a pretty good scientist, himself, as his postwar career clearly demonstrates? In other words, the logical inference is that he was part of the overall German nuclear weapons effort.
By the way, it was not the least bit uncommon for scientifically talented Germans of that era to be specialists in more than one area, unlike so much of academia and applied science today. Walther Gerlach, for example, was well known for his pioneering work on atomic spin polarization, and he was also involved in research and development of both nuclear weapon and plasma physics.
They must have forgotten to tell him the location then, because he puts himself 200 kilometers or so from Rugen.
The V-3, as it was called by the Americans, was an expected threat. This was the title of a report of a meeting of the CCS or Combined Chiefs of Staff: "Preparing the American Public for a V-3 Attack - Dec 1944"
The New York Times ran an article about this since New York was the apparent target.
13.12.1944
"La Guardia's Advice Draws Nazi Irony
"London, Dec. 13 (UP) - A German spokesman commented with 'biting irony' today, the Berlin radio said, on Mayor La Guardia's statement that New Yorkers would not deal with the Germans for 100 years if New York were bombarded with V-3 weapons."
A site in Czechoslovakia was assembling the V-3.
The New York Times ran an article about this since New York was the apparent target.
13.12.1944
"La Guardia's Advice Draws Nazi Irony
"London, Dec. 13 (UP) - A German spokesman commented with 'biting irony' today, the Berlin radio said, on Mayor La Guardia's statement that New Yorkers would not deal with the Germans for 100 years if New York were bombarded with V-3 weapons."
A site in Czechoslovakia was assembling the V-3.
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Excuse me, have I accidentally fallen through a space time rift and ended up in the Twiglet zone? I'm pretty sure if a NAZI nuclear test had occurred, the allies would have been all over it, "Look what we saved you from"! The fact that this did not happen, points at none of it happening. Entertaining but pointless hyperbole really.
Your excerpts are much appreciated. The November 19,1945 issue of Life magazine ran an article titled "The 36-Hour War."
Included was an illustration of intercontinental rockets striking targets in the American east coast and south. It is captioned: "The Atom Bombs Descend on U.S." At this time, it is stated the U.S. had such rockets as part of "present equipment." This cannot be true unless these rockets were borrowed from a German source. It is obvious that the Russians needed to know that the Americans were moving very quickly to put captured material to use.
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Like all conspiracy theories, trying to counter any of the arguments logically doesn't work, as logical thought wasn't what led them to the conspiracy.
If you don't accept the conspiracy theory either you are naive/deluded in believing the "cover story", or part of a shadowy group actively covering up the truth because reasons. The more strident the opposition, the more certain they are that their theory was correct. Being 'one of the few to see the truth' makes you feel special.
If you don't accept the conspiracy theory either you are naive/deluded in believing the "cover story", or part of a shadowy group actively covering up the truth because reasons. The more strident the opposition, the more certain they are that their theory was correct. Being 'one of the few to see the truth' makes you feel special.
williamjpellas
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Edwest2, yes, I have that article in my files. It was quite prescient.
No it isn't.
Hap Arnold quoted in "36 Hour War:" "We can run a large air operation for the sole purpose of delivering one or two atomic bombs....When improved antiaircraft defenses make this impracticable, we should be ready with a weapon of the general type of the German V-2 rocket, having greatly improved range and precision...."
"The start of another war, said General Arnold, might come with shattering speed: "With present equipment an enemy air power can, without warning, pass over all formerly visualized barriers and can deliver devastating blows at our population centers and our industrial, economic or governmental heart even before surface forces can be deployed.""
Nothing about ICBMs being "present equipment." The dueling ICBMs and ABMs in the article are a depiction of future war.
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The point here is that even if Life magazine had stated that the US had ICBMs in this article, THAT STILL WOULDN'T MAKE IT TRUE.
The definitive source for that would be some kind of document from the Air Force archives.
This is the hallmark of conspiracy. If Life magazine in 1946 said that Germany had no workable atomic bomb program, it would be meekly following the government disinformation propaganda and ignored. If it said that they did have a workable atomic bomb program, it would be vital evidence of a coverup.
williamjpellas
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No.
Rider's work is not "a conspiracy theory". It is a contrarian history which is drawn from a large number of perfectly legitimate, period-authentic, primary source documents and other evidence, including accounts from first hand participants.
All I am really asking anyone here to do---if they are willing---is just read the book and view the documents and other evidence for yourselves. You don't have to go through all 4,600 pages (though it is quite an amazing read and I'm nowhere close to finishing, myself). Chapter 8 and Appendix D contain the highest concentration of material directly related to the WWII German nuclear weapons program. Though there are references scattered elsewhere in the book, those two sections will give any interested person a clear picture of what the original archival papers actually say, and how they are related to one another.
To give one specific example of why I say that Forgotten Creators is a work of history and not of conspiracy theory:
From Page 3566-7, Analysis of the German Nuclear Program:
“Any U.S. or U.K. information on a large wartime German nuclear program would have been classified and concealed (even more so than the rocket, jet, and chemical warfare programs were) in order to (i) try to hide that information or western knowledge of that information from the Soviet Union; (ii) make imported German scientists more palatable to the U.S. public and politicians (avoiding questions along the lines of “Why are we hiring scientists this month who were on the verge of nuking us last month?”); (iii) downplay wartime German technological accomplishments; and (iv) play up U.S. wartime and postwar accomplishments to both domestic and foreign audiences.
(a) Samuel Goudsmit’s job as scientific head of the Alsos Mission was to investigate the German nuclear program in great detail and report his findings, yet there is well documented evidence that completely contradicts his public portrayal of the German program. Goudsmit appears either to have been incredibly incompetent at his assigned job or else to have been deliberately making false public statements about the German program. Here are just a few examples:
i. Goudsmit testified to the U.S. Senate that the German nuclear scientists “were still a hundred years away from” producing a bomb at the end of the war. Just a fraction of those scientists, completely starting over in the technologically backward Soviet Union, built an atomic bomb in four years.
ii. Goudsmit stated that “approximately 100 scientists were active on this project,” and that many of those “worked only part time on this important research and the rest of the time did routine teaching or administrative work.” The list of known German nuclear scientists is much larger, the total number working on the program may well have been far larger still, and the urgency and time commitment that these scientists accorded to their wartime nuclear work is documented in many of their postwar accounts.
iii. Goudsmit claimed that Erich Schumann was “a second-rate physicist” whose “main interest was the physics of piano strings.” It is well documented that Erich Schumann was the Ph.D. thesis advisor of Wernher von Braun, spent years during the war developing, demonstrating, and optimizing highly sophisticated implosion bomb designs, and was directly involved in a number of other groundbreaking military research and development programs [Nagel 2012a].
(Schumann was the head of the research department of the German Army Weapons Bureau, the heereswaffenamt, from 1934–45 and was closely involved with its biological weapons program as well as its work on nuclear weapons. Goudsmit’s sneering comment about “piano strings” was a reference to Schumann’s grandfather, who was a famous classical music composer, and also a nod to the younger Schumann’s prewar civilian post as a lecturer in acoustics at the University of Berlin - WP).
Samuel Goudsmit
iv. Goudsmit characterized Manfred von Ardenne as merely “a clever technician and businessman” who tried to divert government funding away from “the really competent scientists.” After the war, von Ardenne was the German nuclear scientist most highly courted by the Soviet Union (presumably based on Soviet intelligence about his wartime nuclear accomplishments in Germany), and he was ultimately awarded a first class Stalin prize for helping the Soviets build their first atomic bombs [Oleynikov 2000]. (This was the highest award a civilian could earn in the Soviet Union, the equivalent of the Presidential Medal of Freedom in the US. Von Ardenne in fact won it twice - WP).
(b) A large number of Alsos-related documents from Samuel Goudsmit’s files remain classified (see for example pp. 3454–3455 and 3472).
(c) Some very important Alsos-related files from the Manhattan Project’s Foreign Intelligence Unit also remain classified and unavailable, as shown by the example on p. 3376.
(d) Numerous other files related to the German nuclear program and its scientists have been removed from the U.S. National Archives as evidenced by yellow withdrawal cards (see for example pp. 3535), or never were there yet are referenced in documents that are present.
A large German nuclear program would have had a direct impact on subsequent U.S. programs, just as the rocket, jet, and chemical warfare programs did. (a) As discussed in Section D.2.10, there is evidence that captured German enriched uranium and implosion bomb detonators may have significantly aided and accelerated the final phase of the wartime U.S. nuclear program. The United States also captured large amounts of unenriched uranium, beryllium, zirconium, and other materials that presumably aided the postwar U.S. nuclear program. German-developed rockets, missile silos, jet bombers, cruise missiles, and submarines proved to be the ideal delivery methods for U.S. nuclear weapons after the war, just as they were likely intended to be delivery methods for any nuclear weapons that Germany had been developing during the war. (b) More archival research is needed to determine whether postwar nuclear weapons work in the United States was influenced by German nuclear scientists, materials, or information that had been found at the end of the war, especially for lighter and smaller implosion systems, high-voltage fusion neutron initiators, lithium deuteride fusion fuel, the layer cake H-bomb design, two- and three-stage H-bomb designs, and improved U-235 enrichment methods. Evidence such as the U.S. capture and interrogation of Hans Kammler (pp. 3504–3515), Edward Teller’s invitation to Siegfried Flugge (p. 3536), files on German fusion research (Section D.2.4), and redacted or missing files from German scientists (e.g., p. 3535) raise very serious questions that deserve to be thoroughly investigated.”
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Does that sound to you like Rider is peddling "a conspiracy theory", or that he is raising legitimate and serious questions about the conventional historical narrative which has come down to the present day largely from Samuel Goudsmit's demonstrably inadequate and dishonest account?
The Third report of the Commanding General of the Army Air Forces to the Secretary of War that the Life article is based on is even more clear: "The only known effective means of delivering atomic bombs in their present state of development is the very heavy bomber."
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Putting this to the vote.
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