General Dynamics Model 100 / Cold Pigeon / Sneaky Pete / HAVE KEY

quellish

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Known at various times as:
Model 100
Sneaky Pete
Cold Pigeon
HAVE KEY (Under USAF Aeronautical Systems Division ownership)
Approximately 1976-1984, evolved into the ATA/A-12.

Sneaky Pete has been mentioned often in other threads, but has no thread of its own. I've recently run across an image of it in a very strange place, and had already collected a timeline of Sneaky Pete information.

So, all in one place now.
 

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Collecting together what we have on this design. Quellish can probably add something more :)
 

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Comparison to 1979 Northrop Low Altitude Penetrator

northropb2study11-jpg.16505

northropb2study5-jpg.16493


I believe this has the same basic concept of low front quarter RCS as Sneaky Pete, with rear aspect less important.
 
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I'm wondering why they called it "Sneaky Pete". That is a popular colloquialism from back in the day. A sneaky pete was a pool cue used by a hustler that looks like a cheap beat up house cue, but it's really deadly in the hands of a skilled player...
 
sublight is back said:
I'm wondering why they called it "Sneaky Pete". That is a popular colloquialism from back in the day. A sneaky pete was a pool cue used by a hustler that looks like a cheap beat up house cue, but it's really deadly in the hands of a skilled player...

The terms "sneaky pete" / "sneeky pete" also refer to a whole series of sexual behaviors usually connected to sodomy... For the demonstrator of an elusive stealth aircraft meant to penetrate enemy lines unnoticed, it does make some sense to me... ::)
 
Stargazer2006 said:
sublight is back said:
I'm wondering why they called it "Sneaky Pete". That is a popular colloquialism from back in the day. A sneaky pete was a pool cue used by a hustler that looks like a cheap beat up house cue, but it's really deadly in the hands of a skilled player...

The terms "sneaky pete" / "sneeky pete" also refer to a whole series of sexual behaviors usually connected to sodomy... For the demonstrator of an elusive stealth aircraft meant to penetrate enemy lines unnoticed, it does make some sense to me... ::)


TMI Dude :eek:
 
Looks like a B-2ish shape bled through on Overscan's second pic. I'm guessing that was the "high-altitude concept"?
 
Stargazer2006 said:
The terms "sneaky pete" / "sneeky pete" also refer to a whole series of sexual behaviors usually connected to sodomy... For the demonstrator of an elusive stealth aircraft meant to penetrate enemy lines unnoticed, it does make some sense to me...
This other definition makes even more sense:
"When you start and finish sex with your partner while they remain asleep."
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sneaky pete (2nd )
 
I must confess that (admittedly by my ageing/flaky memory) I thought this was allegedly so named in connection with Charles 'Pete' Winters, who was a Test Pilot and Vice Commander/Commander of AFFTC DET3 in the same rough period?:

More obvious here:

Less so here...:

Maybe wrong, perhaps everything is just about Sex after all!
 
From the bio: "BQM-34 (Classified)". Really? Hmmm.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
sublight is back said:
I'm wondering why they called it "Sneaky Pete". That is a popular colloquialism from back in the day. A sneaky pete was a pool cue used by a hustler that looks like a cheap beat up house cue, but it's really deadly in the hands of a skilled player...

The terms "sneaky pete" / "sneeky pete" also refer to a whole series of sexual behaviors usually connected to sodomy... For the demonstrator of an elusive stealth aircraft meant to penetrate enemy lines unnoticed, it does make some sense to me... ::)


The sexual connection does seem to make sense, especially with the "penetrator" label attached the certain stealth designs!


That said, I've always thought of Peter "Sneaky Pete" Kleinow who played with the Flying Burrito Brothers. I'm probably clutching at some serious straws here, but since Sneaky Pete the aircraft supposedly grew into the ATA - known as the Flying Dorito - and Flying Dorito rhymes with Flying Burrito... well, need I say more! There are some serious flaws in that idea, granted, but nonetheless it got me thinking.
 
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Collecting together what we have on this design. Quellish can probably add something more :)


Is the ATF-SLO a sort of forerunner of the A-12 Avenger II of late 80's??
 
archipeppe said:
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Collecting together what we have on this design. Quellish can probably add something more :)


Is the ATF-SLO a sort of forerunner of the A-12 Avenger II of late 80's??


ATF-SLO is a version of the General Dynamics Sneaky Pete design offered to ATF concept definition studies. A-12 Avenger was based on Sneaky Pete work.
 
Superb design and outstanding artwork, Scott, thanks.

It's interesting to notice that at a time when faceted surfaces were all the rage, Northrop had already pretty much established its trademark blended cockpit and intakes, which were carried over in Tacit Blue, the B-2 and now the B-21.
 
Skyblazer said:
Superb design and outstanding artwork, Scott, thanks.

It's interesting to notice that at a time when faceted surfaces were all the rage, Northrop had already pretty much established its trademark blended cockpit and intakes, which were carried over in Tacit Blue, the B-2 and now the B-21.

"Blended" was long the goal. The F-117 was designed when computers couldn't handle the math, but once they *could,* then the issue was solved.
 
Now all's you need is the Ryan/Wintersdorf patent drawing and you'll have the Whole Set...

Keith Jackson (ATA/A-12 chief designer) responding he had 'seen' the W model and DOD analysts believing his own Model 100/Cold Pigeon was a copyright violation of the NINETEEN SEVENTY FOUR Ryan UAV concept art which had been patented in ~1981. Just before the ATA got underway.

Art work which was chiefly identified by the deep dielectric edge treatments, completely around the periphery of a triangular shaped airframe. With buried engines...

Meanwhile, AFSC was supposedly, 'forget your lane, we own the highway!' all over Have Key's SLO (Subsonic Low Observable) design because they felt it 'threatened' the ATF workups they were doing with Chuck Myer's and Riccioni's SCM concept.

Never get between the Blue Suits and their Congressional money.

And yet Jackson himself is writing in his professional journal: 'Think we should try for the ATB next.' As though this wasn't a presold USAF contract too.

Meanwhile, Kaminski, Chu and Christie of PA&E fame all got on USD Thayer, then Taft's hindquarters about Lehman's duplicitous desire (It's anti-capitalism, I tell you, that just ain't right!) to fly Vietnam Airpower into the 21st century while Ahabing the Soviets off Kola

Eventually they convinced Taft to put Vic Cohen (LTV) and Sol Love (Triple Doctorate On Weapons Systems and OSD program headhunter) onboard the Hans Mark Blue Ribbon commission to counterflood the Grumman listing A-6F/F-14D emphasis by pounding a square peg of stealth into the ear of Lehman's Navair, under the presumption that 'the new concept' (3 billion dollars worth) was going to buy a stealth airframe.

Not another generation of Bethpage retirement plans.

All this, in the 1981-83 timeframe. _Before_ ATF became a thing in 1984. And then went black in '86. At this time, the Model 100/Sneaky Pete was both a strategic bomber, an advanced tactical fighter and a VX-12/VFMX multirole fighter with supersonic capability and 100% radius increase while carrying a whole lotta bombs. Two of the three having high stealth emphasis.

The timelines for motive agency simply do not add up for a 'never stealthy' and 'never aware' set of bidders on XST/Have Blue which also popped in this 1981 timeframe.

Despite the fact that it was a straight copy of one of the seminal UCLAS works on VLO and according to most, a litigious theft of intellectual property.

I dunno about copying the smart kid...


But if you've got some money, I got a bridge in Brooklyn that says the A-12 was max-LO from the get go. If it wasn't, it was because a whole LOT of people who knew better refused to speak a word as money was thrown into a pit called ATA.

There is a Missing Link in there, somewhere.
 
Now all's you need is the Ryan/Wintersdorf patent drawing and you'll have the Whole Set...

Keith Jackson (ATA/A-12 chief designer) responding he had 'seen' the W model and DOD analysts believing his own Model 100/Cold Pigeon was a copyright violation of the NINETEEN SEVENTY FOUR Ryan UAV concept art which had been patented in ~1981. Just before the ATA got underway.

The Ryan patent:
Was filed in 1975 and granted in 1977. That patent was based on work done between 1973-1974 in the Ryan "Low RCS Vehicle Study" was was in turn based on the Low RCS Vehicle Prototype proposal and PINE RIDGE work.

The patent was not issued or published in 1981.

The General Dynamics "HAVE KEY" etc. concepts were formulated in (IIRC) 1975-1978 as part of their work on ATS/ATSIE. This was independent of any of the Ryan work, and it is very unlikely that GD was aware of that work. The Air Force, however, was well aware of it.


And yet Jackson himself is writing in his professional journal: 'Think we should try for the ATB next.' As though this wasn't a presold USAF contract too.

Both Lockheed and McDD submitted proposals for ATB in addition to Northrop.

All this, in the 1981-83 timeframe. _Before_ ATF became a thing in 1984. And then went black in '86. At this time, the Model 100/Sneaky Pete was both a strategic bomber, an advanced tactical fighter and a VX-12/VFMX multirole fighter with supersonic capability and 100% radius increase while carrying a whole lotta bombs. Two of the three having high stealth emphasis.

None of the GD Sneaky Pete / Model 100 / etc. concepts were supersonic.

The timelines for motive agency simply do not add up for a 'never stealthy' and 'never aware' set of bidders on XST/Have Blue which also popped in this 1981 timeframe.

XST/HAVE BLUE was WELL before 1981. In 1981 production F-117s were being delivered!

Despite the fact that it was a straight copy of one of the seminal UCLAS works on VLO and according to most, a litigious theft of intellectual property.

The GD work was not a copy of the Ryan work. They each arrived at their designs independently.
 
1) The General Dynamics "HAVE KEY" etc. concepts were formulated in (IIRC) 1975-1978 as part of their work on ATS/ATSIE. This was independent of any of the Ryan work, and it is very unlikely that GD was aware of that work. The Air Force, however, was well aware of it.

2) None of the GD Sneaky Pete / Model 100 / etc. concepts were supersonic.

3) The GD work was not a copy of the Ryan work. They each arrived at their designs independently.
Can personally validate 2 of these statements, and refute 1 of them. FWIW.

1) & 3) One of the engineers working for Keith Jackson during that period told me (in 1997) that the lead RCS guy (names withheld for privacy reasons) "first sketched the dorito chip in 1976" for the ATS Technology Evaluation and Integration studies. My source added: "the design layout was orginally done unclassified". The aforementioned RCS guy had worked earlier on F-111A and FB-111A RF signature reduction.

2) Another former GD employee told me (in the mid-90s) that they had worked an afterburning, supersonic-capable version of the dorito chip for an F-111 replacement, presumably as part of the ATS study and later pre-ATF activities. [Of course, this may have been limited to analyses and wind tunnel testing. I don't think the likely-but-unconfirmed Have Key demonstrator had an afterburner.]
 
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This posting is one of your finest. Holds up very well after a dozen years...
It is very likely that a Sneaky Pete demonstrator flew, as a project of USAF Aeronautical Systems Division - which was an outsider to the DARPA VLO programs. Sneaky Pete's configuration was actually fairly mature by 1977, when the ATS/ASTEI studies were conducted (it figures prominently in a number of the studies that lead to the ATF requirements). DARPA and ASD didn't share much information, and it's not likely that ASD (with Sneaky Pete) got the level of signature reduction that HAVE BLUE did. Sneaky Pete was considered state of the art by ASD until the early 80s, but ASD did not know that had been well surpassed.

Going into the A-12 program, GD thought that the work on the Sneaky Pete concept (under COLD PIGEON/Model 100/VX-11/HAVE KEY, at various times) gave them a leg up in the stealth game. As it turns out, it didn't. GD thought they were prepared to meet aggressive signature and weight goals given their experience with Sneaky Pete, but it turned out they were unprepared. GD's team needed access to more modern tools and materials for the A-12, and didn't get them - which is part of what the A-12 lawsuits are about.

If Sneaky Pete were to become public knowledge, the lawsuit could become a lot more complicated.
In the October 29, 1984 edition of Aviation Week, a memorable scoop about the unacknowledged, emerging ATA program was published. I've attached a screenshot.

The most important single sentence is that "the invitations to bid were based on flight experience with stealth hardware".

Navy program documents, per Stevenson's book, directed McAir as well as GD, Lockheed, and Northrop "to form teaming arrangements with each other, or one or more of the following companies: Grumman, Boeing, Rockwell, LTV, and Fairchild."

It's obvious to us aviation aficionados why Lockheed and Northrop were considered stealth experts in 1984. What is less obvious is why General Dynamics in Fort Worth was considered qualified, and even more mysterious is why McDonnell Douglas (McAir) in St Louis was allowed to participate as a potential prime contractor. Here's my take, something I wrote a friend years ago...

** For GD-FW, there is that evidence that they flew a "dorito chip", probably subscale, in the 1981-1982 timeframe. It was likely out of the Have Key special access compartment at WPAFB.

They had been working that particular design since 1976, according to what one of the engineers in Fort Worth told me in 1997 (he was also a named source for Stevenson's book). GD-FW also had worked and flown RCS reductions on the F-16 (Have Glass et al), earlier had developed and produced the F-111A and FB-111A (which had to meet USAF specs for reduced observables), and back further, had designed and tested a full-scale pole model of the Kingfish supersonic reconnaissance aircraft for the CIA, which lost out to the Lockheed Blackbird, but reportedly had lower RCS.​

** For McAir, there is no clear evidence what or when they flew anything that could be called "stealthy". The Stevenson book states (on pg 60) that initially Lehman/Paisley did not think McAir was a viable competitor, but meetings between McDonnell Douglas execs and Paisley changed minds.

It's possible that McAir emphasized to Paisley their Quiet Attack Aircraft work with ONR in the mid-1970s, but it's unlikely that it led to any flight testing. Or maybe it was some type of missile work prior to SLAM/SLAM-ER, such as AIWS (early JSOW). Or maybe Douglas Aircraft's in So. Calif. experience as one of the two designers of LO re-entry vehicles back in the 1960s (along with GE near Philly), but that's a stretch.​
Another possibility is that Lehman was frustrated with Lockheed's initial pushback on teaming or fixed-price contracting, so he decided to lower the bar enough to give him another potential prime.​
Or maybe Paisley just took a bribe from the boys in St Louis, not an unreasonable assertion considering he spent 1991 through 1995 in prison as a result of Operation Ill Wind, after pleading guilty to bribery during his ASN-RDA tenure.​
 

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Was filed in 1975 and granted in 1977. That patent was based on work done between 1973-1974 in the Ryan "Low RCS Vehicle Study" was was in turn based on the Low RCS Vehicle Prototype proposal and PINE RIDGE work.
>>


"During the time that Lockheed Martin and Northtrop were in heavy competition, Keith Jackson and his crew at General Dynamics were working on what would eventually be known as the A-12. While Jackson had an inkling that something was going on involving DARPA, he did not have any details. Nevertheless General Dynamics had evolved a one-quarter scale model of an airplane they called 'Cold Pigeon."
Page 23 T5BDM, James Stevenson.

Later on that page it is mentioned that the data used for the Model 100 (which ceased being called that when a GD company official mentioned it to an aerospace reporter) was based on the AIMVAL/ACEVAL exercises, a specifically Air to Air related spectrum which actually fell more into line with the original work by Colonel Chuck Myer on a BVR centric fighter which would fly at high level and be supersonic cruise capable.
XST and ATB were both bombers.

>>
The patent was not issued or published in 1981.
>>

Which is why I put a squiggly ~. Dates, Numbers, so many, so confoozed.

Note, so as not to risk copyright infringement, I will not quote exact text anymore, thus note the shift from quotation to paraphrasing semi-quote marks.

The pages the paraphrasing come from, in _The Five Billion Dollar Misunderstanding_ by James Stevenson, will be accurate. The Author, his due.

Damn you sir, I'm eating Chinese Noodles because you won't republish your bloody book and all the secondhand market prices are insanely high! I'm going to end up hating Ramen Noodles. Who hates Chinese Noodles?!

'Jackson: 'We step up efforts to get considered in the ATB effort.' ... In October 1981, GD begins to accumulate funding for a dedicated Low Observables engineering team. In November, Jackson becomes aware of the Wintersdorf patent and gives a briefing to Tom Christie at PA&E on VX-11. Evidence supporting flying wings being superior Low Observables baselines accumulates. Tom Hahn, an R&D subcommittee aide and later Patent Attorney, suggests that the A-12 may violate the Winterdorf patent.'
Page 26 T5BDM, James Stevenson.

>>
The General Dynamics "HAVE KEY" etc. concepts were formulated in (IIRC) 1975-1978 as part of their work on ATS/ATSIE. This was independent of any of the Ryan work, and it is very unlikely that GD was aware of that work. The Air Force, however, was well aware of it.
>>

'In August 1983, DOD Top Level Acquisition Bureaucrats (Chu, Christie, Thayer, Delauer, Puritano) met to attempt to end USN deep strike. 'We had been trying to get rid of the A-6E since 1974.'

...

In June, Keith Jackson was told the Have Key was considered a direct threat to the ATF Program. Paul Kaminski said that the USN was not interested in stealth. John Lehman said the A-6F was not a 70 million dollar airframe, but more like 28 million and the A-12 was 20% over that, flyaway. GDFW manager Herb Rogers cancels Have Key investments to begin investments in ATF.'
Pages 32-33, T5BDM, James Stevenson.

Whether is sabotage of Grumman, Navy Strike or the A-6 specifically: 'Lehman is given The Word by Thayer, to begin looking at a 'new airplane' to replace the A-6. It is understood that 'New' means stealth. Lehman says 'Aye Aye Sir!' and begins to establish a Blue Ribbon commission, filled with naval and marine aviators to kill the proto A-12.

At least until the 1990s, when his own term will be done and Grumman will be flush with A-6F and F-14D orders.

Chu warns Christie, Christie puts the bug in Thayer's ear that the fix is in on the Blue Ribbon Panel. Thayer counter-salts the Hans Mark Commission with rivals from LTV who need a new design, real bad, as the A-7 fades into the sunset.
Page 35, T5BDM, James Stevenson.

'Battista (bigwig Beltway analyst and Congressional lobbyist) says that the Navy doesn't want MRASM (mini-Tomahawk) because it's a 200nm standoff missile and the A-6 can penetrate, just fine, with 60nm Harpoon. Lehman says, 'I've been to the White Sands Landship, fought the big exercises, the only way you can get in is with a roll back approach, peeling away the layers, at night. Battista rejoins with the USAF never being willing to buy a subsonic followon to a supersonic precursor because...Fun Ferrari vs. Ford Bomb Truck. I mean, wasn't the A-10 enough?

Meanwhile, (1984) Keith Jackson writes in his journal: 'There is a rush to team, am told by Navy higher ups that we are one of three qualified contractors for the ATA'. McDonnell Douglas (F-4, F/A-18) is not one of them. The downselect requirement is stealth.
Page 59, T5BDM, James Stevenson.

Nothing to say here so much as to note the drawings and charts for Configuration 403 which looks like a blended and chined F-14 with F-111 inlets and is referred to as an 'intermediate supersonic strike system'. Of the key performance parameters, the noteworthy ones are that it has a 997nm strike radius compared to the A-6E's 560nm one and a MTOGW of 73,000lbs. Right on the edge of carrier suitability. There are also strike and multirole configurations of an alternative, flying wing, system.
Page 69-71, T5BDM, James Stevenson.

>>
Both Lockheed and McDD submitted proposals for ATB in addition to Northrop.
>>

ATB is a flying wing. Which was only announced, late in the Carter Administration, to make it sound like the B-1A cancellation was a good idea and Jimmy Carter was 'strong on defense'. Then Iran happened.

Yet the important footnotes here are that the Wintersdorf patent is not a flying wing but more of a lifting body/blended wing body. Cold Pigeon is a flying wing. While the SLO/Missileer concept was one of the early ATF configurations considered (Battlecruiser, Bushwacker, SCM/SDM and Missileer) it was also one of the ones most rapdily removed.

The USAF had no reason to fear the Model 100 or Have Key because, assuming the image is accurate (and the Wintersdorf patent one as well) they could not do the intended mission which was deep penetration into defended airspace to break up concentrations of enemy fighter intercept or HVAA supporting platforms. Which is kind've what Colonel Myers was working on and what likely came out of AIMVAL/ACEVAL, if anything.

While a subsonic aircraft can fly overtop (by altitude) most M-SAM, once caught by HiMADS, it's done. Stealth would have to be really REALLY good to defeat this and the X the configuration of VLO which was best suited to this role, from the XST program, was not the Lockheed variant but the Northrop one. With a 13:1 vs. 1,000:1 baseline modifier respectively.

The Northrop XST also looks like a lifting body with an F-107 style inlet. But the Northrop B-2 is a flying wing. Someone made a change from XST to ATB. And it wasn't GD and the Model 100/Have Key team.

Is this important when considering the Top Sail/Steer/Plate radars of the Fregat equipped Sovremeniy, Slava and Kirov classes as the primary naval AAW threat? Yes.

Lehman says, somewhere in the text, that _his view_ of the ATA was a special squadron, kept somewhere remote in the desert, training against threat complexes, then flown out to the boat, at need, as a pathfinder force. Where they could target for the MRASM or TASM or whatever.

>>
None of the GD Sneaky Pete / Model 100 / etc. concepts were supersonic.
>>

No but the VFMX ones were. What caused the change? Payload? The Intermediate Supersonic Strike could carry three Mk.83. Or Stealth?

Yet the ATA is not stealth. Despite Jackson saying his team were 'stealth specialists' and the USAF saying Have Key was a threat to ATF which rapidly necked down to being both stealth AND supersonic.

If Have Key is a subsonic flying wing, the Northrop configuration of Stealth is oriented towards high level defeat of surveillance radars and GD is considered a 'specialist technology house' in one of the two areas which would interest the USN (Carrier Suitability being the other, where GD had _zero_ experience but MDC did...) then it stands to reason that that company which put together a specific VLO engineering team at the very beginning of the 1980s, would be designing a VLO specific platform for the Navy. A flying wing with extremely short pitch couple and large float is not your first choice for a carrier landing airframe with high sink rates and the need for precision scatter control on a narrow angle deck.

Put more bluntly: if Jackson thought his Model 100 was suitable for the (known stealth) ATB. And the USAF considered Have Key to be a direct threat to ATF because it was stealthy, not because it was fast. Then why was the A-12 subsequently not a threat to USAF _and_ not VLO, if it is based on GD experience from Have Key and the Model 100?

The ATA precursor concept has stealth as a primary design driver for which Stealth Gurus like Paul Kaminsky called GD a primary (one of three) stealth contrators. But the derived naval strike fighter doesn't?!?

A-durrrr.

>>
The GD work was not a copy of the Ryan work. They each arrived at their designs independently.
>>

So you are saying the Model 100/Have Key are stealthy?

Did I hear that correctly?

Lies, lies tell me sweet little lies... I mean everyone knows the A-12 was never stealth.

Even though ATA was not a multirole strike or air superiority platform and so could not defend itself from radar threats, even at night, especially at high altitude.

VFMX/VX-11 was both of those things, but only in one specific configuration that was not a flying wing and whose drawing does not look stealthy. ATA was descended from a specific technology line which was so serious a stealth progenitor that the USAF considered it a threat to their ATF. And which, at one time, it's designed considered to be a contender for ATB, which has a different approach to stealth but was never, itself, considered solely because it was a flying wing.

The A-12's chief opponent in the Navy wanted it to be a pathfinder, even though, by his own consideration, it was only a 34 million dollar platform compared to the 28 million dollar A-6F that was his heart's true desire and so he could have afforded both. Because he didn't need more than about 50-100 'new' jets. Just like the USAF didn't need more than 60 F-117As.

Someone who is trying to change a targeter platform into something else. Someone who wants to make a gatherer to replace the U-2 in the pre 'Tier' (TR/Tactical Recce) days of the U-2R as TR-1.

Who does this? FOIA. The Family Of Intelligence Agencies. Trying to break into stealth.

Model 100 _did_ catch someone's attention as Jackson shopped it around. But it wasn't the uniformed service's eye. They were just a cover.

And by attaching the Have Key configuration to an unlikely Naval Interdictor in a WORLD VIEW where the top procurement folks at DOD wanted to end Grumman or at least Naval Strike, these 'donor class' stealth wannabes in the defense peanut gallery thought they could attach themselves to a configuration which, if it failed as a naval strike airframe, could be taken into a gatherer/collector platform using large internal bays which could fit a 110" LOROP camera and a film cannister or SLAR or a monstrous ESM farm.

So explain why I am wrong, slowly, as you would to a small child or a golden retriever, that I might understand what Have Key, Model 100 and Cold Pigeon really were and how they 'fit in', in relation to the more well-known programs of the XST/Have Blue, F-117/Senior Trend, And ATB/Senior Ice.

But not Bravery. Whose trigram is straight out of the Intel world.

Thus, do I sit at the feet of the master, ready to receive the legend of a long dead program which your encyclopedic knowledge clearly knows quite a bit. Can you not, in your great wisdom, preserve for the ages the sacred knowledge by lifting the curtain on the briefing board so that the collection of GD technology demonstration efforts and assembly of a large observables engineering team, in 1980, at the perfect time for ATA to be linked to GD would NOT see the subsequent A-12 be designed stealthily? This part of the dark fairy whispers surrounding the Avenger II program particularly fascinates me because it is so completely incongruent with the revealed pattern of it's engineering descendancy.

If not ATA, then what? If not coherent reason then at least choate coverup. The program is 45 years old.

Why did Paul Kaminsky, the Hans Kammler of the Reagan Era stealth development/procurement bureaucracy, executive secretary of the LOCLOEXCOM himself, say that GD was 'One of three' technology sources for Stealth. Can you do even that much?

Please. Thank You. BRR.
 
Why did Paul Kaminsky, the Hans Kammler of the Reagan Era stealth development/procurement bureaucracy, executive secretary of the LOCLOEXCOM himself, say that GD was 'One of three' technology sources for Stealth. Can you do even that much?

Please. Thank You. BRR.

ACM / AGM-129
 
ACM / AGM-129
Thank you. Back to the ATA program -- from Lehman/Pailsey's position of needing justification to name 'qualified' prime contractors in lieu of an open source solicitation, I should have included the Teal Dawn program winner under my GD list.

Strictly speaking, the ACM-129 program was out of General Dynamics Convair Div. in San Diego, a distinct entity from GD's Fort Worth Div. However, I do know that Fort Worth did provide RCS engineering support to San Diego.

Lee Nicolai was the DARPA PM until 1982. https://www.aa.washington.edu/news/article/2022-08-30/remembering-alumnus-leland-nicolai A side (snide) note: I would take his claim of designing the ACM with a grain of salt.
While I have no knowledge of the power politics and conflicts between SECNAV and OSD, I do know the contracting authority for something like ATA rests with the Navy secretariat and the assigned system command.
 
My point was GD (San Diego) won ACM in 1983, so their "stealth credentials" as a company and 'flown hardware' could easily refer to ACM not Sneaky Pete. However I believe ACM-129 featured a lesser level of stealth than B-2 and F-117.
 
My point was GD (San Diego) won ACM in 1983, so their "stealth credentials" as a company and 'flown hardware' could easily refer to ACM not Sneaky Pete. However I believe ACM-129 featured a lesser level of stealth than B-2 and F-117.

At the time of the Kaminski statements, DoD had (known) contracts with Northrop (ATB), Lockheed (ATA), and General Dynamics (ACM). It is likely his statements of "three sources for stealth" referred to these contractors and these programs.

GD FW and GD Convair were basically separate entities with little communication between them during the 1980s. Both had stealth and hypersonic programs that were very different and had essentially no crossover between them.
 
Strictly speaking, the ACM-129 program was out of General Dynamics Convair Div. in San Diego, a distinct entity from GD's Fort Worth Div. However, I do know that Fort Worth did provide RCS engineering support to San Diego.

Lee Nicolai was the DARPA PM until 1982. https://www.aa.washington.edu/news/article/2022-08-30/remembering-alumnus-leland-nicolai A side (snide) note: I would take his claim of designing the ACM with a grain of salt.

Nicolai has written about ACM, portions of which are quoted in these threads:


 
the original work by Colonel Chuck Myer on a BVR centric fighter which would fly at high level and be supersonic cruise capable.

Your post mentions the Myers fighter concept several times. To clarify, the notional fighter that Myers was advocating (1973-1976ish):
- Reduced observables (visual, IR, radar)
- Small size (5000 lb)
- Supercruise
- Air-To-Air, no radar guided missiles (gun, sidewinder, AA ARM)
- No radar, minimal avionics

Which was (obviously) not a "BVR" fighter. So ambitious it does not really pass a sniff test.

This concept was "Project Harvey". Small study contracts were given to several companies in the early 1970s (Lockheed, Northrop, Boeing, etc.).

In June, Keith Jackson was told the Have Key was considered a direct threat to the ATF Program. Paul Kaminski said that the USN was not interested in stealth. John Lehman said the A-6F was not a 70 million dollar airframe, but more like 28 million and the A-12 was 20% over that, flyaway. GDFW manager Herb Rogers cancels Have Key investments to begin investments in ATF.'
Pages 32-33, T5BDM, James Stevenson.

That idea that HAVE KEY "threatened" the ATF (in 1983) is strange considering that HAVE KEY was the foundation of GD's ATF designs until mid 1985.

ATF_Evol_part1_11_1267828237_1659.JPG

While the SLO/Missileer concept was one of the early ATF configurations considered (Battlecruiser, Bushwacker, SCM/SDM and Missileer) it was also one of the ones most rapdily removed.

Again, this is not correct. GD developed three configurations in parallel until 1985. Conventional, all-wing, and "semi tailless". The all-wing configuration evolved from HAVE KEY.

The Northrop XST also looks like a lifting body with an F-107 style inlet. But the Northrop B-2 is a flying wing. Someone made a change from XST to ATB. And it wasn't GD and the Model 100/Have Key team.

XST was a small technology demonstrator. ATB was a strategic bomber. The requirements were drastically different, resulting in drastically different configurations.

The GD work was not a copy of the Ryan work. They each arrived at their designs independently.
So you are saying the Model 100/Have Key are stealthy?

Did I hear that correctly?

I do not see how you could reach that conclusion from my statement.

Neither the Ryan Low RCS Vehicle nor the HAVE KEY were particularly stealthy when compared to the XST or later designs.

The development of radar cross section reduction techniques followed a evolutionary, progressive series up steps until the XST program. That included the Ryan Low RCS Vehicle which evolved from their earlier work with COMPASS ARROW, etc.

The Northrop and Lockheed XST designs both had much, much lower signatures than the Ryan design, and fundamentally could reach lower levels. The Ryan technology - the same techniques being used by other contractors - was at the limits of what it could do. "Deep dielectic absorbers" etc. was an evolutionary dead end.

By the standard set by the XST (etc) the Ryan design and the A-12 were not "stealthy". They were about as stealthy as an F-18E.

Even though ATA was not a multirole strike or air superiority platform and so could not defend itself from radar threats, even at night, especially at high altitude.

This is also incorrect. The A-12 requirements dictated it carry self-defense AAMs and HARMs in most configurations. And in a "Fighter Escort" configuration it would carry 2 AIM-9 and 10 AIM-120. It was a "multirole" fighter. This is well documented in the very book you have been quoting.
 
To get back on topic, public references to "Sneaky Pete" :

General Dynamics studied a wide range of advanced fighter concepts and modifications to existing fighters. Advanced derivatives of the F-16, F-15, and F-111 competed with the new concepts for the same missions. The advanced concepts included a conventional aircraft called "Plain Jane," a supersonic stealth configuration, a small inexpensive fighter called "Bushwhacker," a large fighter called "Missileer" that could carry many long-range air-to-air missiles, and a highly stealthy all-wing fighter called "Sneaky Pete," which eventually evolved into the Navy's short-lived A-12 Avenger II.

Code One Magazine, "F-22 Raptor Design Evolution, Part I"

The response from General Dynamics favored two of the four concepts originally developed in the 1976-78 studies for the Flight Dynamics Lab.
...
The other candidate was a descendent of Sneaky Pete. General Dynamics, however, was not allowed to show USAF officials actual drawings of this design because of its classification. The company substituted surrogate drawings of a notional fighter that USAF officials soon dubbed "the marshmallow." The real design was the starting point for all-wing studies explored in the next phase of the program.

Code One Magazine, "F-22 Raptor Design Evolution, Part I"

The seven participating companies submitted a total of 19 conceptual designs, which are illustrated in Figs. 8 and 9.1 They ranged from a Northrop lightweight "cooperative fighter" that was smaller than an F-16 to a Lockheed "battle cruiser" bearing a distinct resemblance to the SR-71.2 In addition, there was an "in-house" design for a subsonic low observable fighter provided by the Air Force Flight Dynamics Labo- ratory (AFFDL). This was a surrogate for a contractor design (submitted by General Dynamics) that could not be used in the RFI because of special access security restrictions on low observables technology.

"Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor: Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter"

The General Dynamics design for the dem/val phase evolved from a variety of inputs. During the previous program phase, the company had focused on three separate families of aircraft: conventional, all-wing, and semi-tailless (denoted in the configuration studies by C, W, and T, respectively). The conventional family derived from the Model 21 designs of the previous studies. The all-wing family strove to carry Sneaky Pete's minimum observables into the supersonic regime. The semi-tailless family, which had a single vertical tail, fell in between these two extremes. After a series of internal design competitions and trades, the company went with the semi-tailless approach.

Code One Magazine, "F-22 Raptor Design Evolution, Part I"

During the same time that Lockheed and Northrop were in heavy competition, Keith Jackson and his crew at General Dynamics were working on what would eventually be known as the A-12. While Jackson had an inkling that something was going on involving DARPA, he did not have any details. Nevertheless, General Dynamics had evolved a one-quarter scale model of an airplane they called "Cold Pigeon".

By August 1977 the General Dynamics efforts to avoid radar detection had evolved into a concept it called "Sneaky Pete." Four months later, on 1 December 1977, unknown to General Dynamics, the Have Blue aircraft made its first flight.26 General Dynamics continued, during 1978, to refine its studies. It incorporated the lessons learned from a large exercise with instrumented aircraft known as AIMVAL/ACEVAL.27

"The $5 Billion Misunderstanding"
 
There's a very strong 'circumstantial evidence' case for our belief in a likely-but-unconfirmed Have Key flight demonstrator.

Quellish- your encyclopedic knowledge and efficient filing system rock! I've previously read every one of the articles and books you quote above, but over the years it all got blurry, and I'm left with a binary memory on this topic - yes or no (I'm a loud yes). Expanding on two points....

1) From Aronstein: "The all-wing family strove to carry Sneaky Pete's minimum observables into the supersonic regime." This sentence corroborates my mention above of a conversation with a GD employee in the mid-90s. Again, I think GD conducted various design excursions on the initial "dorito chip" layout from the ATS-TEI days through the mid-80s, to include what-if assessments of supersonic capability (via an afterburner). Among other things, it would have been routine for Keith Jackson and his team to perform ops analysis and design trade-offs of speed, altitude, and RF/IR signature as long as he (Jackson) had the budget to do so.

2) Why would the Air Force TACAIR community, and others*, view an afterburning version of Sneaky Pete/VX-11/Cold Pidgeon as a programmatic threat? (note: a subsonic-only SLO/Marshmallow design remained a non-starter) Well, I think we can all agree that higher level civilian and miltary officials do not get all worked up about 'paper design' alternatives. Basically, the Pentagon is flooded with notional snazzy renderings and interesting technology pushes. With a successful flight test, it's a new ballgame -- doors no longer slam in your face, but in fact, some in gov't or the military with their own agendas will open the door for you.
------
* I have other circumstantial evidence that GD continued their 'business development' campaign for a "dorito chip" alternative to the ATF program after the F-22 EMD contract was awarded to the Lockheed/GD/Boeing team. [to go even further, I believe this was a factor in Lockheed's purchase of GD-FW in early 1993.] Take my input for what it's worth. Let's leave it that I've been trying to put the pieces together of the Navy ATA and Air Force ATF programs' behind-the-scenes drama for over 30 years.
 
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