General Dynamics / Grumman F-111B

[pathology_doc]

The real pity, rereading this post now, is that the Spangenberg site is no longer functional. I don't like piracy per se, but this is one of those times I hope someone kept a digital resource of the whole thing that they could repost.

Fortunately, this very site has it covered:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/george-spangenbergs-oral-history-tfx-vfax-nacf-etc.114/#post-20895

The PDFs aren't quite as convenient to navigate as the website, but it's all there.

Bless!

 

[Caravellarella]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxDV9y5Is64

 

[Justo Miranda]

Old models

Hasegwa 1/72 F-111B Conversion by Bill Gilman

 

[thefrecklepuny]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxDV9y5Is64

Given the sheer size of the F-111B, it's interesting they used Coral Sea and not something larger in the Forrestal class. I wonder why that may have been?

 

[isayyo2]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxDV9y5Is64

Given the sheer size of the F-111B, it's interesting they used Coral Sea and not something larger in the Forrestal class. I wonder why that may have been?

I believe it was during a work-up period before their 9/7/68 - 4/18/69 WestPac/Vietnam deployment.

 

[uk 75]

CVA01 was designed to operate large heavy VG aircraft and the designers must have been aware of the F111B.
For modellers the addition of F111B to a CVA01 airgroup is attractive.

 

[GTX]

CVA01 was designed to operate large heavy VG aircraft and the designers must have been aware of the F111B.
For modellers the addition of F111B to a CVA01 airgroup is attractive.

For pure fiction see here:

GREATER AUSTRALIA

GREATER AUSTRALIA

beyondthesprues.com

 

[robunos]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxDV9y5Is64

Given the sheer size of the F-111B, it's interesting they used Coral Sea and not something larger in the Forrestal class. I wonder why that may have been?

I believe it was during a work-up period before their 9/7/68 - 4/18/69 WestPac/Vietnam deployment.

I think the insinuation is that the Navy chose an unsuitable ship for the trials, as they wanted the trials to fail, because they did not want the F-111B . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[uk 75]

CVA01 was designed to operate large heavy VG aircraft and the designers must have been aware of the F111B.
For modellers the addition of F111B to a CVA01 airgroup is attractive.

For pure fiction see here:

GREATER AUSTRALIA

GREATER AUSTRALIA

beyondthesprues.com

I have just finished this and made a copy for my private use. I have no had so much Oz fun since Prisoner Cell Block H hooked my late parents years ago. As for the artwork do you remember Jenny Agutter in WALKABOUT.

 

[RAP]

...

 

[RAP]

F-111B components.

 

[BlackBat242]

I have just finished this and made a copy for my private use. I have no had so much Oz fun since Prisoner Cell Block H hooked my late parents years ago. As for the artwork do you remember Jenny Agutter in WALKABOUT.

My only issue is.... just how many service psychiatrists would be required in the OCD Force?

 

[Archibald]

For pure fiction see here:

GREATER AUSTRALIA

GREATER AUSTRALIA

beyondthesprues.com

Reads like an earlier and flying AUKUS...

 

[JFC Fuller]

From testimony to the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, March 1970, a detailed list of changes proposed as part of the CWIP-III study and the performance that was expected from that configuration. Also included is a memorandum with brief descriptions of other configurations designated A, C, E, X and Y.

 

[NMaude]

Here's a short video of the F-111B's carrier suitability trials (It's silent):

#OTD (July 23) in 1968, carrier suitability trials for the F-111B were conducted aboard USS Coral Sea. The plane was a variant of the Air Force's F-111 Aardvark. It had been considered to fill Navy's need for a new carrier-based interceptor but was deemed too heavy. The F-14 got the job.

So if it had gone into service the USN would've had the F-111B Turkey instead of the F-14A Tomcat?

 

[Scott Kenny]

I'm wondering if part of the problem was fighter pilot ego?

I mean, you want good pilots flying your critical-to-the-carrier FADF mission. Nobody makes fun of the guys keeping your home from explosively acquiring some new swimming pools.

But the planes that would likely spend most of their time flying and mixing it up with the enemy would be the F-4/A-7 replacement.

 

[NMaude]

I'm wondering if part of the problem was fighter pilot ego?

Fighter pilots sure love their guns (The F-14 had a built in M61 Vulcan cannon while the F-111B didn't), I didn't read the details in AW&ST but when F-4Es were being converted into F-4G Wild Weasels there was a LOT of whinging and whining from F-4E pilots complaining about the change being a sex-change and/or symbolic castration as part of the conversion process was the removal of the M61 Vulcan cannon. You'd think from all of the complaining these F-4E pilots were having their dicks chopped off.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Fighter pilots sure love their guns (The F-14 had a built in M61 Vulcan cannon while the F-111B didn't),

I suspect that was a fallout from Vietnam's positive visual ID rules of engagement.

I didn't read the details in AW&ST but when F-4Es were being converted into F-4G Wild Weasels there was a LOT of whinging and whinging from F-4E pilots complaining about the change being a sex-change and/or symbolic castration as part of the conversion process was the removal of the M61 Vulcan cannon. You'd think from all of the complaining these F-4E pilots were having their dicks chopped off.

After as much work as it took to get a gun on the Phantom, you bet there was a lot of complaining about losing the gun again!

 

[Firefinder]

One thing to remember that the F14, even the early models...

Could and often did go toe to toe with the F15 and won as often as not.

The F111B...

Could not... At all.

Like heck the standard version was G limited to 8. As in do more then that and the thing snapped. The F111b had as much weight as possible remove which included a good bit of structural strengthing so it will not freaking tear the arresting wires apart on landing.

As for the inevitable, Missile Carriers dont need agility... May I point to the F16 which dodge six sams, the RA5 dodging 3, and all the Wild Weasels doing the same. One of the Soviets A2A missiles was design to kill the Tomcat so that the bombers can go kill its carriers....

 

[NMaude]

I suspect that was a fallout from Vietnam's positive visual ID rules of engagement.

There is that too.

After as much work as it took to get a gun on the Phantom, you bet there was a lot of complaining about losing the gun again!

While you have a point I suspect that psychologically to a (Male) pilot (This was long before women were cleared to fly frontline aircraft) you were basically saying you're going to have your dick cutoff. Once F-4 pilots got their guns they loved them!

While the F-111B could never be a dogfighter IMO I think it would've been a perfectly adequate supersonic interceptor to shoot down Soviet naval aviation bombers such as the Tu-22M Backfire (I can't recall if the Tu-22 Blinder was tasked with carrying AS-4 Kitchens to take out USN CVs).

 

[MycaleTrireme]

Does anyone know why there's no AoA indexer box in the landing gear well in those photos of the F-111B in the Ames wind tunnel? I'm pretty sure it was present in the Coral Sea trials.

 

[NMaude]

"Not a Pound For Air-To-Ground" put out this video in August about the F-111B:

TFX and particularly the Navy's F-111B Fleet Defence Fighter has gone down in history as an example of defence procurement gone wrong. This video dives into the details of the F-111B and tries to understand whether it could ever have been a success. Although seemingly a little niche, understanding F-111B is important to understand the eventual Grumman F-14 Tomcat, so this video is hopefully worth your time!

Sources:

The only book specifically on the F-111B is the great Tommy Thomason's "Naval Fighters 41: Grumman Navy F-111B Swing Wing". Sadly it is long out of print and costs an arm and a leg. Having got myself a copy, I'd say that it is a great read and typically brilliantly researched, but not worth the $300 it costs in the UK!

"Grumman Aircraft Since 1929" by Rene Francillon is more widely available and contains a decent section on the F-111B