Fusion powered aircraft

We may have fusion spacecraft first-a dish/sail/Medusa thing reflecting beamed energy to pellets released behind-or maybe ahead to brake with reflectors and the dish inverting like a windblown umbrella.
Yep, that's the one. If I remember, the one you mentioned was the basis for the Project Orion spacecraft (Not to be confused with the Orion Capsule that's on the Artemis Program). And indeed, the name of its propulsion is called Nuclear Pulse Propulsion.

I know Wikipedia's not really a credible source, but here:
View attachment 689763
Z-pinch and Theta-pinch nozzles have been mentioned in various places.
I see. I did some searching, and indeed, there were plans by NASA to make a Z-Pinch based Fusion Rocket System. There's even a whole Powerpoint Presentation dedicated to it, as seen in the attachments

If this sort of thing can be implemented, then it would probably make for a very interesting and possibly efficient form of propulsion system
 

Attachments

  • ASPW2010-Z-Pinch(RAdams).pdf
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Pardon my ignorance but, fusion power would still strew contaminated material all over in an accident. Why would this be considered a smart thing to risk?
I think the quantity is very small compared to fission.
Given that the process does not spill much radiation, it should ideally be many times smaller than fission processes, but it would still be better to put up some kind of shielding. Radiation Contamination may not be the only concern when it comes to making Fusion Reactors fully safe
 
Holy moly, at that point, that's not a Helicarrier, that's a Flying Airport!

I know, Carriers are usually called Floating Airstrips, and if they fly, then they can technically be called Flying Airstrips, but this one appears to be much bigger than even an Aircraft Carrier

The design kinda looks practical, but unappealing, it also seems to look flimsy, maybe a few AMRAMMS to certain critical places can bring it down or damage it greatly. So, they would have a disadvantage right there
 
That's what CIWS is for. This would be the god of all arsenal planes.
I suppose. But as Aircraft and missiles greatly advance in capabilities, so must CIWS, otherwise, they'll be the target of a BVR SEAD mission, in which the missiles are far too fast for the CIWS to take down, and thus, they ultimately destroy the CIWS
 
Surely this thread should be in theoretical, fake and generic projects? There has been one media announcement in the last week which has not been peer-reviewed or replicated. While interesting and potentially exciting, the early comments in this thread of applicable tech still being 50-60/500 years away are surely more measured.
 
Surely this thread should be in theoretical, fake and generic projects? There has been one media announcement in the last week which has not been peer-reviewed or replicated. While interesting and potentially exciting, the early comments in this thread of applicable tech still being 50-60/500 years away are surely more measured.
For the record, I didn't actually made that thread. This was originally a discourse in the Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider thread, but then someone took this discourse out and gave it its own thread. It happened overnight while I was sleeping, so I was shocked to find that my quote became the basis of a new thread

Maybe you can ask the guy who did this. They're probably a mod, as only they would have the power to move messages to make a new thread

Additionally, even the 50-60 estimate I made is optimistic. Realistically, it can happen in 100 years or more. It's just that I'm very optimistic about this kind of technology because our energy woes are very much unsolved, and a solution like Fusion Reaction is long overdue. My optimisim goes to point that I can consider Fusion Energy becoming a thing in less than 30-50 years, with common and civilian applications probably coming some decades after that. But I could be wrong, because I'm just hopeful anyways. Either way, I'll just wait and see what will happen

 
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Fusion power has been ten years away for about sixty years. Fusion scientists are very optimistic
 
Fusion power has been ten years away for about sixty years. Fusion scientists are very optimistic
That has been the trend. But maybe the news of the ignition will slightly bridge the gap. I can still see 30 or 50-60 years, possibly less, but again, that's the optimistic estimate.
 
It's difficult to tell with these things, people bang their head on a wall for a long time and nothing happens, but then suddenly a breakthrough occurs.
 
It's difficult to tell with these things, people bang their head on a wall for a long time and nothing happens, but then suddenly a breakthrough occurs.
If you count the skull being broken as a breakthrough, then I suppose

Regardless, a breakthrough did happen after years and years of testing and experimenting, so let's just see where this will lead to
 
Does anyone know how hot a fusion reactor gets?
A needlepoint heated to millions of degrees would kill anyone and anything is a 100 Km radius around it. I don't want to think what happens with the rest of the reactor...
 
but as fusion reactors are formally finalized and introduced,
By the time fusion reactor would be made compact enough to fit an aircraft, B-21 would be found only in museums. Seriously, what are you talking about? Unless some unortodox method of igniting fusion would be found (which is not impossible, but impossible to predict), the fusion reactors of foreseeable future would be massive construction with thick layers of neutron protection.
 
but as fusion reactors are formally finalized and introduced,
By the time fusion reactor would be made compact enough to fit an aircraft, B-21 would be found only in museums. Seriously, what are you talking about? Unless some unortodox method of igniting fusion would be found (which is not impossible, but impossible to predict), the fusion reactors of foreseeable future would be massive construction with thick layers of neutron protection.
Equally impossible to predict is the longevity of certain types of vehicles that can house it. The B-21 is claimed to be modular enough thanks to its Open Architecture design that it can probably be able to house a fusion reactor should it be miniaturized. In addition, its modularity also means that it can be easily replaced by parts every so few years, which can increase the longevity of such aircraft, as well as capabilities. Perhaps just like the B-52s, B-21s can be flying and performing the Strategic Deterrence role for a really long time.

Assuming that Fusion Reactors are a reality within 50 years or less, the B-21s (At least the final or latest production ones) can possibly be fitted with them. If Fusion Reactors will come in 100 or 200 years, then the chances of B-21s having Fusion Reactors is highly unlikely, and by that point, some successor bomber aircraft will be the ones being fitted on with them, preferably ones that can handle the power input that these fusion reactors can give.
 
Does anyone know how hot a fusion reactor gets?
A needlepoint heated to millions of degrees would kill anyone and anything is a 100 Km radius around it. I don't want to think what happens with the rest of the reactor...
That would be another challenge to deal with. Maybe some specialized shielding to reduce, if not stop the effects. Or perhaps a safe way to initiate fusion ignition without creating such a gigantic mess. Either way, it seems like the Fusion guys know what they're doing, as no incident of that caliber ever occurred (Maybe because they didn't do it at full power, but who knows), and if it did, it will be way worse than Chernobyl, and perhaps, the Military will be investing in it as a weapon and not as a reactor
 
Does anyone know how hot a fusion reactor gets?
A needlepoint heated to millions of degrees would kill anyone and anything is a 100 Km radius around it.
I read a slim hardcover book…digest sized…that talked about how a dot of this size could do just that—what was the name of that book?

Again…pellet fusion might work with a spacecraft simply reflecting light to a point—the laser apparatus left behind not part of the spacecraft itself.

For an airplane? Forget it.
 
Assuming that Fusion Reactors are a reality within 50 years or less,
The problem is that you need not just a fusion reactor. You need an extra-compact fusion reactor with low-neutron reaction. And such things are way more complex than "just a fusion reactor". For example, you could not use the common D+T fusion - the neutron flux would be too great. You would need something like He3 + D as fuel - which is several orders of magnitude harder (for example, because Deuterium would start to fuse with itself before condition of its fusing with Helium-3 are reached). It's absolutely impossible to assume even theoretically, when He3 reactors would be available.
 
Pardon my ignorance but, fusion power would still strew contaminated material all over in an accident. Why would this be considered a smart thing to risk?
The main radioactive material in a fusion reactor (at least as we theorize it) are neutron-activated materials. That is, reactor materials that are transmuted to radioactive isotopes by the neutrons from the fusion reaction hitting them.

As these are robust materials, there is not much chance of them being dispersed in the environment. Additionally, as fusion reactions are both enabled by, and contained by magnetic fields, there is no chance of a runaway reaction - anything that interferes with the operation of the reactor will collapse the magnetic field, halting the reaction (and probably messing up the magnetic containment machinery).
 
Assuming that Fusion Reactors are a reality within 50 years or less,
The problem is that you need not just a fusion reactor. You need an extra-compact fusion reactor with low-neutron reaction. And such things are way more complex than "just a fusion reactor". For example, you could not use the common D+T fusion - the neutron flux would be too great. You would need something like He3 + D as fuel - which is several orders of magnitude harder (for example, because Deuterium would start to fuse with itself before condition of its fusing with Helium-3 are reached).
I see. That alone would take more research to conduct before we can safely make that kind of reaction.
It's absolutely impossible to assume even theoretically, when He3 reactors would be available.
Nothing is impossible for the theoreticals, I wouldn't exactly say that it's absolute. A timeframe can be formed, predictions can be made, and discussions about it will be held as well, what's impossible to do is to assume absolute certainty. One must not make an estimate without considering the delays and other possibilities that may withhold it back, or vice versa, the possibilities that may accelerate the project even sooner.

This is why I consider my 30 or 50 year estimates to be the most optimistic estimate, assuming that:

1: Actual Nuclear Fusion Research is actually far more advanced and ahead than what's revealed to us, it's just that due to National Security and Classification concerns and reasons, they are intentionally withholding this knowledge from us, the common public.

2: No major problems and delays have actually occurred in recent years that threaten to push back the project's deadlines by years, if not decades, or decades, if not centuries.

3: In relation to Reason 1, Government Support and Funding for the project has actually been much higher than publicly revealed, and/or the entire project is running on a Black Budget, thereby giving the researchers more incentive to finish this project in due time. As we all know the age-old proverb: Money Talks.

4: And many more possibilities and assumptions that may have crossed my mind, but can exist in such programs.

Since it may be likely that only 1 or 2 assumptions are most likely real, then a more grounded estimate would be around 100 years or more. AT LEAST Fusion Reaction Technology could be coming up in the 22nd Century or early 23rd Century at the most of this grounded estimate.

And we'll be damn lucky if the Optimstic Estimate is actually the Real Estimate, and we get our Fusion Reactors before the end of the 21st Century.

But even if Fusion Reactors were to come at the earliest and most optimistic time, we should expect that for at least a few decades, Fusion Reactors would be primarily used by the Government and Military, and will not be handed out to the common public until sometime later.

Not to mention, I predict that should Fusion Reactor Technology becoming a thing and become available to the common public, the biggest energy companies may take their hands on it first, and then retain their control over it as they force the common public to pay for the electricity monthly, same as before. Only this time, the common public may be likely to pay cents per month, due to how immensely cheap the energy resource will become.
 
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Nothing is impossible for the theoreticals, I wouldn't exactly say that it's absolute
What I was saying is that its impossible to predict, when the fusion reactors would became compact enough to fit on planes. It may be possible to create such reactor (or may be not - not all kinds of technology could be efficiently downsized), but currently we have no clues - no reference points - to even speculate, when such compact fusion would be avaliable.

Actual Nuclear Fusion Research is actually far more advanced and ahead than what's revealed to us, it's just that due to National Security and Classification concerns and reasons, they are intentionally withholding this knowledge from us, the common public.
Very improbable. Fundamental physics just did not work like that.

No major problems and delays have actually occurred in recent years that threaten to push back the project's deadlines by years, if not decades, or decades, if not centuries
Considering how many problems high-temperature plasma managed to create during the last 50+ years of research, we could safely assume that there WOULD be major problems.
 
What I was saying is that its impossible to predict, when the fusion reactors would became compact enough to fit on planes. It may be possible to create such reactor (or may be not - not all kinds of technology could be efficiently downsized), but currently we have no clues - no reference points - to even speculate, when such compact fusion would be avaliable.
Ok, by that specific point, that's true. It's not like someone's gonna be like Tony Stark and make a minaturized arc reactor in a cave filled with scrap. The reality would be that such things might take sometime. Perhaps if Fusion will come in 100 years, miniaturization may possibly come in 20 to 50 years, even more. But it won't be the same as the evolution of the Computer and its processing power, in which its miniaturization was steady throughout the decades.
Very improbable. Fundamental physics just did not work like that.
I suppose that could be the case. But my point wasn't on the improbability of Fundamental Physics in Fusion Reactions, it's the amount of Research that had been done into the project in reality. What I was saying is that the announcement of the ignition, as well as all public information regarding Fusion Reactor development is just barely scratching, no, barely beginning to merely touch the surface of it all. I don't know much about Physics (It isn't really my forte, but I try to understand as much as I can), but I know that Fundamental Physics does not keep a program black or classified, it's the Government or the Military that does so.

Maybe yes, Fundamental Physics dictates that such development is somewhat impossible or improbable right now. But do we really know everything that has to do with Physics? Every waking moment, scientists and other experts are discovering new and intriguing principles that may or will change our understanding of Physics as a whole. Maybe the major laws and principles of physics that we are familiar with, can be challenged one day, and when proven incompatible with new discoveries and understandings, a new system will then replace it. It's just like how Newtonian Physics replaced Aristotelian Physics, only to be replaced by our current consensuses and understandings of what Physics really is.

In that regard, there may be a person, persons or organizations that may either challenge the general consensus regarding physics, or find ways to bend around them to complete a certain experiment, and then they discover something new or innovative as a result. Perhaps in the same way, a certain principle loophole is waiting out there somewhere to be discovered, tested and utilized by someone, that may eventually allow for the safety and miniaturizing of Fusion Reactor Technology.

Considering how many problems high-temperature plasma managed to create during the last 50+ years of research, we could safely assume that there WOULD be major problems.
As is every innovative and radical approach to advancing future technologies for the future of Humanity.

They always have to thread into the unknown and possibly dangerous realms, so that they can find the solution to their problems. It's no different from when testing new guns, cannons, other energy sources and whatnot. There will always be accidents, there will always be major problems, and certainly, there will be moments where a great number of lives will have to be taken as a result of our pursuit in to the Technology of the Future, so that we can learn our lessons and ensure that this will never happen again.

What would matter in the end is that they can find a way to solve these problems and ensure that this new piece of technology will not just change our very way of life, it will also be safe enough for us to handle.
 
Ok, by that specific point, that's true. It's not like someone's gonna be like Tony Stark and make a minaturized arc reactor in a cave filled with scrap. The reality would be that such things might take sometime. Perhaps if Fusion will come in 100 years, miniaturization may possibly come in 20 to 50 years, even more. But it won't be the same as the evolution of the Computer and its processing power, in which its miniaturization was steady throughout the decades.
I'm more ambivalent here. Short of reaching singularity, if we would have industrial-scale D+T fusion in 50+ years, it would still took at least 50+ more years to sucsessfully fuse D+He-3. And miniaturization... as I said, it may not be even possible.

But it won't be the same as the evolution of the Computer and its processing power, in which its miniaturization was steady throughout the decades.
Yes, that's the problem. Not all technology could be minituarized well. And fusion power seems to be the kind of technology that would not.

it's the amount of Research that had been done into the project in reality. What I was saying is that the announcement of the ignition, as well as all public information regarding Fusion Reactor development is just barely scratching, no, barely beginning to merely touch the surface of it all. I don't know much about Physics (It isn't really my forte, but I try to understand as much as I can), but I know that Fundamental Physics does not keep a program black or classified, it's the Government or the Military that does so.
With all respect, I do not believe in secret laboratories making secret government research. I could not recall any case of major fundamental science breakthrough made that way.

They always have to thread into the unknown and possibly dangerous realms, so that they can find the solution to their problems. It's no different from when testing new guns, cannons, other energy sources and whatnot. There will always be accidents, there will always be major problems, and certainly, there will be moments where a great number of lives will have to be taken as a result of our pursuit in to the Technology of the Future, so that we can learn our lessons and ensure that this will never happen again.
There is one difference. In case of guns, missiles, ect., we are applying what we already know. In case of fusion power, we are working with a lot of unknown. As I said before - hot plasma turned to be a thing, that just seems to invent a new puzzling properties as soon as we more or less find the way to dealt with previous one.
 
Didn’t the fusion reactor achieve the massive task of boiling 10 kettles?

I think we have a way to go, before we are letting these things fly over us.

It would need to be awesome before it beats solar and a battery.
 
I'm more ambivalent here. Short of reaching singularity, if we would have industrial-scale D+T fusion in 50+ years, it would still took at least 50+ more years to sucsessfully fuse D+He-3. And miniaturization... as I said, it may not be even possible.
Then assuming that's what's going to happen, then it will still fall in the 100 year grounded estimate or more. Either way, it will be coming. As for miniaturization, it may seem impossible now, but we have made immense strides in technology in the last 2 centuries, assuming that this trend continues, miniaturization may seem possible at some point. As much as we should be aware of the principles that may hold all this development back, let's also not estimate the human ingenuity to find a way to make such things more accessible.
Yes, that's the problem. Not all technology could be minituarized well. And fusion power seems to be the kind of technology that would not.
Perhaps so. If it can be miniaturized, then well and good. I would hope for that to happen in the future at some point so that it can fit in more types of technology that we may be developing in the future. But if it can't be miniaturized, then they will still be of benefit as either way, they'll be much smaller than fission nuclear reactors. At most, you can probably fit 5 or more Fusion Reactors onto a single Fission Reactor, and since one already produces far more power than the entire Fission Reactor, the overall power output of such a facility will be multiplied immensely.

And if they can't be miniaturized as such, there may still be some military hardware that can possibly contain them, like US ships, especially Aircraft Carriers, and possibly some larger planes like Cargo and Bomber planes. In addition, every base and facility can also house them so as to have an independent source of energy from the common power grid (Or maybe that's already a thing now, so adding Fusion Reactors will just make it better).
With all respect, I do not believe in secret laboratories making secret government research. I could not recall any case of major fundamental science breakthrough made that way.
Understandable. Some people only believe what they see or know. But for me, they exist, we just don't know it. And if people are skeptical of their existence, then it means their secrecy efforts are working.

The Manhattan Project is one example of such a program. We all know about it now, but back then, it was very top secret, and only when the Nuke was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki did its existence became public. True, their aim was to make a Nuclear Bomb, so it was more of a weapons program than a science research program, but they had to learn and study all that is about nuclear production in order to make the bombs in the first place. And with their skill taken from doing all that, they were then able to make Nuclear Reactors and then share the technology with their allies, thus indirectly, a weapons program may have also given us the Nuclear Reactor as one of its gifts.

Perhaps in the same way, I think that there are several scientific black operations and research organizations out there that are studying all these things, while keeping an extremely non-existent profile, so that absolutely no one but those with the necessary clearances can know of the actual truths that are happening within, and thus, only unveil what they have found only when the time to reveal it is imminent. Maybe the news of the Ignition actually happened months ago (I recall an article saying it happened in August of this year), just that they didn't reveal it until a specific time, so as to slowly allow the public to be aware of this success in their efforts, and thus get ready for the future of Fusion Reactor Technology.
There is one difference. In case of guns, missiles, ect., we are applying what we already know. In case of fusion power, we are working with a lot of unknown. As I said before - hot plasma turned to be a thing, that just seems to invent a new puzzling properties as soon as we more or less find the way to dealt with previous one.
I suppose so. So many unknowns are present in finding out about Fusion Reaction Research than many other innovative fields, especially that Fusion Reaction is running on our understandings of Physics, which as I mentioned before, may be incomplete to a tremendous degree, and new discoveries in Physics may also prove all the more detrimental to the current state of the research.

Regardless, if we are to provide a new source of energy to the world, if we are to hypothetically offer fire to the common populace that never had fire before, then these unknowns and risks are things that we all should be ready to face. For it is only through threading the unknown that we start to turn it into the Known, and then apply it to what we are doing, so as to produce what we need to produce.
 
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If Fusion Reactors will come in 100 or 200 years, then the chances of B-21s having Fusion Reactors is highly unlikely,
B-52s, on the other hand...
I bet them B-52s will now be spaceplanes, making trips to Mars, because somehow, they are fitted with new space-grade materials and engines that allow it to go beyond escape velocity

In reality though, the B-52s are reaching the end of their lives. And when the last B-52 pilots park the last B-52 at the scrapyard, they will leave in a B-21
 
Didn’t the fusion reactor achieve the massive task of boiling 10 kettles?

I think we have a way to go, before we are letting these things fly over us.

It would need to be awesome before it beats solar and a battery.
Quiet a long way, actually

We can either have it at an optimistic 50 years

Or at a more realistic 100 years

Either way, it's gonna take very long, and unless something accelerates that research further, we can't live to witness it, or will be old men and women by the time it is out.
 
Now, in the way some want to flash ammonia to hydrogen on the fly-what about any chemo-nuclear pure-fusion options? Once again-the heavy equipment to make the propellant is on the ground-with energy released via something novel. I have read about molecules acting as if an atom with new properties-superchemistry it was called IIRC.
 
I don't think it's actually fusion power having read the description, and it's talking about leaving the Solar System in 5 years (35 years for Voyager probe) rather than reaching Alpha Centauri in 5 years, which is what it sounded like from the title.
 
Does anyone know how hot a fusion reactor gets?
A needlepoint heated to millions of degrees would kill anyone and anything is a 100 Km radius around it.
No it wouldn't. Fusion weapons get far hotter than that, are far larger than "a needlepoint", and don't have anything at all like that kill radius.
 
Does anyone know how hot a fusion reactor gets?
A needlepoint heated to millions of degrees would kill anyone and anything is a 100 Km radius around it.
No it wouldn't. Fusion weapons get far hotter than that, are far larger than "a needlepoint", and don't have anything at all like that kill radius.
I should have checked with more informed sources first... I stand corrected :)
 

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