French Secret Projects 3

[athpilot]

Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.

Wow! Quiet interesting! Where did you found this?

 

[newsdeskdan]

Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.

Wow! Quiet interesting! Where did you found this?

It's from a CIOS report written by Major John W Logan of the USAAC and Arthur Edgar Woodward-Nutt of MAP.

 

[athpilot]

Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.

Wow! Quiet interesting! Where did you found this?

It's from a CIOS report written by Major John W Logan of the USAAC and Arthur Edgar Woodward-Nutt of MAP.

Thanx a lot! Does the document say anything about the procederes of procurement? Carbonel mentions for example the Me 164 which the Messerschmitt AG gave to the french for further developement. But the french did not take it too seriuos and procrastinated it until there was no use for such a courierplane anymore. This could be some kind of resistence. These kind of things are very interesting (to me).

 

[newsdeskdan]

Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.

Wow! Quiet interesting! Where did you found this?

It's from a CIOS report written by Major John W Logan of the USAAC and Arthur Edgar Woodward-Nutt of MAP.

Thanx a lot! Does the document say anything about the procederes of procurement? Carbonel mentions for example the Me 164 which the Messerschmitt AG gave to the french for further developement. But the french did not take it too seriuos and procrastinated it until there was no use for such a courierplane anymore. This could be some kind of resistence. These kind of things are very interesting (to me).

I haven't studied it exhaustively by any means but I know of at least two CIOS reports on German exploitation of the French aviation industry - one dealing exclusively with Paris and one with the rest of France. On cursory inspection neither of them makes any reference to an Me 164. Caudron worked extensively for Messerschmitt on numerous types but that one isn't mentioned. Both reports give details of the procedures under which the French worked for the Germans. I must admit, I'm not aware of any book which gives a good account of French wartime collaboration with the Germans on aircraft development and manufacture. Is there one?

 

[JC Carbonel]

If I remember correctly the information on the MeC164 was sourced from the Caudron book by Lela presse (which was loaned to me but which I don't have now so I cannot check). But mention of the MeC164 appeared earlier in William Green works (RAF Flying Review) and even earlier in the AI(2)G "New and projected types" report (again from memory).

JCC

 

[Arjen]

If I remember correctly the information on the MeC164 was sourced from the Caudron book by Lela presse (which was loaned to me but which I don't have now so I cannot check). But mention of the MeC164 appeared earlier in William Green works (RAF Flying Review) and even earlier in the AI(2)G "New and projected types" report (again from memory).

JCC

From 'Les Avions Caudron - Tome II' by André Hauet, Lela Presse 2002:

 

[newsdeskdan]

If I remember correctly the information on the MeC164 was sourced from the Caudron book by Lela presse (which was loaned to me but which I don't have now so I cannot check). But mention of the MeC164 appeared earlier in William Green works (RAF Flying Review) and even earlier in the AI(2)G "New and projected types" report (again from memory).

JCC

It's not in A.I.2(G) Report No. 2383 German Aircraft: New and Projected Types. See attached page from the index. Odd that it's not mentioned in either CIOS report on German exploitation of the French aviation industry when so many other projects, such as the Me 409, are.

 

[athpilot]

Thank you all so much! Really great informations.

 

[sgeorges4]

Great!

 

[hesham]

My dear JCC,

can you add only two years,from 1935 to 1944 ?.

 

[edwest4]

Is there a good book about the French saucer projects done right after the war?

 

[Hood]

Your best bet would be Flying Saucer Aircraft (Secret Projects) by Bill Rose & Tony Buttler if you can still hold of a second-hand copy.

 

[edwest4]

Thank you. I managed to get it at the first release price.

 

[Dilandu]

Are there any source which might give some insight about French pre-war & wartime guided weaponry? Guided bombs, flying bombs, drone planes, remote-controlled torpedoes, that kind of stuff? So far I managed to find more or less conclusive data only about French tracked mines.

Would be really grateful for any kind of such data.

 

[hesham]

My dear JCC,

can you add only two years,from 1935 to 1944 ?.

Please make it as this,and in TU magazine all materials.

 

[bechar06]

To JC Carbonel : Thanks for your 2 books ... FSP1 and 2 ! Congratulations ... To read and reread with delectation, in small doses as the matter is rich and unknown

Couldn’t there be a place for a book ( FSP 3 ) that exposes the French space adventure ? Beside the book of Ph Varnoteaux ( Nouveau monde ) which is little illustrated and largely neglects MILITARY MISSILES and studies ( all the kinds of weapons ) and besides COMAERO studies... For example the HADES missile is widely unknown and poorly documented
( it would thus have been difficult to intercept it by ABM thanks to its not purelly ballistic trajectory )

The period to be covered ( 45 - 95 ) seems more consistent with the first 2 books. The space and weapons developpements and industries are widely dual ( civilian & before military ). But a lot of people do'nt know the military ( and more secret ) side ) ! the cooperation dimension ( of that adventure ) does can be overlooked with its many unsuccessful ( and secret ) projects

Missiles or not-propulsed weapons: surface-to-surface and air-to-surface missiles (ballistic, cruise, anti-ship, anti-tank, etc.), surface-to-air missiles (and anti-ballistic), air-to-air missiles, and anti-satellite weapons ...

A big work to do !

 

[JC Carbonel]

Just to tell you : I have (at last) signed the contract for FSP 3 about French Spaceplanes...

JCC

 

[Deltafan]

Good news !

But what about French secret projects: fighters, bombers and other warplanes 1935-1942 ?

Cancelled ? FSP 4 ?

 

[athpilot]

Great News! Another must by.
And I second Deltafan!

 

[fightingirish]

French Secret Projects Volume 3

In 1963, Eugen Sänger, became head of the Eurospace organisation which promoted the ‘AeroSpace Transporter’. In response to a Eurospace call, aircraft makers in France, Germany and UK designed recoverable, winged spacecraft. From 1964 to 1970 the French government led studies to evaluate the feasibility of the concept.

Those studies, under the leadership of the French Centre National d’Etudes Spatiales (CNES), coalesced into the Hermes spaceplane which was then adopted by the European Space Agency. In parallel, Germany and UK proposed fully recoverable designs while other countries, including Japan, India and Russia came to CNES to share ideas about spaceplane design. Unfortunately Hermes was never launched and by 1994 was abandoned after many alternative propositions were discussed.

This book relates the story of these remarkable concepts, crossovers between aircraft and spacecraft beginning with the ‘antipodal bomber’ of 1944 and continuing to Aerospatiale STS-2000 project through the Transporteur Aero-Spatial, VERAS, AW Pyramid, Bumerang, Sänger II, HOTOL, Hermes, and Taranis. Non-European projects like Dyna-Soar, Hyperplane, HOPE, and MAKS are also be covered. It provides a fascinating and detailed account of these projects which, being half-way between aircraft and spacecraft, have hitherto often been therefore often neglected by aviation writers and historians

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
ISBN: 9781910809914
Binding: Hardback
Dimensions: 280mm x 216mm
Photos/Illus: Over 500

RRP: £27.50
£27.50

This product will be in stock on Friday 30. April, 2021.

Link: http://www.crecy.co.uk/french-secret-projects-volume-3

 

[martinbayer]

Most excellent!

 

[elmayerle]

Okay, there goes more of my hard earned money.

 

[riggerrob]

Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.

Wow! Quiet interesting! Where did you found this?

It's from a CIOS report written by Major John W Logan of the USAAC and Arthur Edgar Woodward-Nutt of MAP.

Adolf Hitler's Third Reich was a kleptocracy that hoped to finance its war by exploiting conquered countries. Hitler's Economic Miracle of the 1930s was more of a shell game, shifting assets from one shell to another: promising Volkswagens to German workers while quietly devoting production only for German staff officers. By 1940, Germany needed the agricultural resources of France and the Low Countries to feed the Reich. He installed puppet governments and pretended to honor Dutch, etc. civilians while almost enslaving Dutch men for German projects.
By the summer of 1941, German had almost exhausted oil reserves, so set out to capture Soviet oil fields in the Caucasus Mountains. When he failed to capture those oil fields by October 1941, Germany was doomed to lose the war. Hitler's plan to "wheat mine" the Ukraine collapsed when Soviet soldiers burnt everything as the retreated.

I rather doubt that Germany ever paid market rate for airplanes, trucks, etc. built in occupied France.

 

[Grey Havoc]

When he failed to capture those oil fields by October 1941, Germany was doomed to lose the war.

Playing Devil's Advocate, one could argue that they still had a narrow window after that, but it was pretty much all but closed by the time February 1943 rolled around. Their best hope after that was to force some sort of long term armistice favourable to Germany, and chances of that were extremely iffy short of a total D-Day disaster (it would also probably have helped if the Axis had been able to foil the events of mid-1943 that would lead to the Armistice of Cassibile in September of that year).

 

[uk 75]

M. Cardbonel. I have volumes 1 and 2 which are a sheer delight. I love postwar French kit perhaps because of my addiction to Bande Dessinee. Volume 3 sounds another must-have. Will probably be still locked down in April so more money for Amatheft.
French Guided Missiles and Rockets would be a great companion to this one

 

[Hobbes]

M. Cardbonel. I have volumes 1 and 2 which are a sheer delight. I love postwar French kit perhaps because of my addiction to Bande Dessinee. Volume 3 sounds another must-have. Will probably be still locked down in April so more money for Amatheft.
French Guided Missiles and Rockets would be a great companion to this one

You can order direct from Crecy instead of using Amazon.

 

[JC Carbonel]

Hello. You are right in refering to the Germans because both French and German secret projects are widely intermeshed in this story. Afterall it all began with Sänger Antipodal bomber. Then during the sixties we had "Transporteur Aero Spatial" while the German (with Eugen Sänger still promoting the thing to the very last days of his life) had Raum Transporter (both under Eurospace umbrella). Then during the late sixties they had Bumerang. Then we were together for Hermes but on the German side there was also Sänger II (and in the UK they had HOTOL) and Hermes + Sänger led what was still Aerospatiale to design Taranis, STS-2000 ... That's what this book is about.
And I can tell you that if researching old aircraft projects is difficult, old space programmes are even more difficult to get the grasp of !
JCC

 

[JC Carbonel]

UK 75, early missiles will be evoked in the chapter devoted to ramjet research. Ramjets being an integral part of the story as they were deemed to be the key to the high Mach speed required of the mothership of any fully recoverable design.

 

[athpilot]

That sounds very interesting! I´m also especially interested in the work of Helmut von Zborowski. Will there be anything about him in Volume 3?
Greetings,
Athpilot

 

[JC Carbonel]

Sorry, nothing on Zborowski in FSP-3. I have suggested to Crécy to adapt in English the book I wrote for Artipresse ten years ago about the Coléoptère , many new pictures have been found since that time. If you read French, I believe there are a few still left with Artipresse.

 

[Silencer1]

My congratualtions to JC Carbonel, as the author!
Keep up the good work!

Curiously, the 4-years-old poll shows, that SPF' members are more dedicated to French' combat aircraft, rather the spaceplane projects.
I think, that author did a good choise, describing the previously uncovered subjects, rather then prewar military projects.
As spaceplanes are closer to the two previous volumes by the timeframe and technologies of their design.

 

[JC Carbonel]

Here is a very short list of the projects covered in FSP3 :
- Antipodal bomber (German wartime)
- Russian raketoplanes of the fifties (Russian)
- Bell Bomi (US)
- X-20 (US)
- Pyramid glider (UK)
- Eurospace Space Transporters (UK, Germany, France) (1 full chapter)
- ONERA ramjet studies (France)
- Nord CT-41 (France)
- Nord Mistral satellite launcher (France)
- Nord Veras (France)
- Sud-Aviation Mach 12 studies (France)
- MBB Bumerang (Germany)
- Hermes concept by CNES (France)
- Aerospatiale VIRO (France)
- Hermes project (France) (two full chapters)
- MBB Sänger II (Germany)
- BAe Hotol (UK)
- Bristol Spaceplanes Spacecab (UK)
- Dassault Star-H (France)
- Hyperplane (India)
- Hope (Japan)
- MAKS / Ariane (Russia / France)
- Aerospatiale Taranis (France)
- Aerospatiale STS-2000 (France)
- recoverable Ariane (France / Germany)
- Aerospatiale moonbase concept (France)
- MTFF (France)

I probably forgot a few ...

JCC

 

[JC Carbonel]

FSP subjects depend on the research available to the author. French VTOL was not accepted (yet?) by Crécy. French aircraft projects 1935-1945 is slowly taking form but is very difficult to construct. I hope to be able to offer it to Crécy, maybe next year. So 2021 will be the year of the spaceplanes.
JCC

 

[JC Carbonel]

Considering that many of the vehicles are fully recoverable winged machines, they could be considered fully as aircraft.
See the Sänger and its demonstrator, the Mistral and its Sud-Aviation competitors, Hyperplane, STS-2000, CT-41 all are airplanes which owe their design to aerodynamics only. So I would say that about 50% of FSP-3 is about airplanes and the other 50% is about re-entry gliders. In the end : if you like airplanes, you can buy this book. It is not about rockets and spaceships (but they do get mentionned!!!!)

JCC

 

[hesham]

Great work my dear Carbonel,

and I hope to see those in your book;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sud-aviation-hypersonic-aircraft-projects.32189/

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sncan-nord-griffon-developments-and-other-high-speed-projects.180/page-2#post-358415

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/various-dassault-jet-projects-and-prototypes.15791/#post-390762

 

[JC Carbonel]

Sud TAS will be there and their high hypersonic designs will be there.
Nord TAS and Mistral variants will be there
Nord advanced Griffons will be there
Nord SST was covered in Tony Buttler's "Building the Concorde" to which I contribued the French side.
you will also get Nord VERAS.

 

[JC Carbonel]

Just to let you know of the status of the book : I am currently reviewing the PDF proofs . It gives a first idea of the final look.

I have pictured one double page per chapter including the intro (DSC09158) ... I let you discover them ! You will note that ramjet missiles are included, competition (like Hotol) is included, collaborative projects are included (like Hyperplane) and I end with post-Hermes designs by the ex-Hermes teams.
JCC

 

[Nick Sumner]

On the tenth picture, is that HOTOL?

 

[Hobbes]

yes.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

I'm thoroughly looking forward to this! Now, where to find some space....