French Secret Projects 1: Post War Fighters OUT NOW!

[Sundog]

Great concept here for what looks like a Twin F-104(!) in 'French Secret Projects' #avgeek

Link: https://t.co/cY1Qnmxi80

Obviously an SNCASO Trident zwilling.

 

[sferrin]

Got mine today. Somewhat disappointed there wasn't any information on some of the more exotic French concepts.

 

[JC Carbonel]

Which exotic French project did I miss ? Maybe they will be in volume 2?

JCC

 

[sferrin]

Which exotic French project did I miss ? Maybe they will be in volume 2?

JCC

These guys right here:

 

[fightingirish]

Which exotic French project did I miss ? Maybe they will be in volume 2?

JCC

Just got your book a few days ago. Unfortunately I had no time to study and read the book fully. But my first impression is that I really will like and enjoy reading it. My review will follow shortly.

On page 180 I miss a short notice regarding the Rafale BM or Rafale N, a short-term planned double-seated version of the Rafale for the French Navy. I remember that program was discussed and finally canceled due to budgetary and technical constraints under the Madame Michèle Alliot-Marie, Madame ministre de la Défense.
Here some info in French.

Un projet mort-né : le Rafale N
Photo montage d'un Rafale N. (©Damien Allard)Devant la charge de travail assez impressionnante (gérer la navigation, le système d'armes, les contre-mesures, le radar...) que les pilotes des nouveaux avions type Mirage 2000 ou F/A-18E/F Super Hornet doivent accomplir et d'après les leçons tirées du conflit au Kosovo, la Marine française a décidé d'étudier une version biplace du Rafale M dés l'été 1999. Cette version prit la désignation de Rafale BM (Biplace Marine). Vue latérale d'un Rafale N. (©DR)Celle-ci devenant "N" quelques mois plus tard. Le prototype de cette nouvelle version devait prendre l'air en 2005. Le 22 septembre 2004, le projet est abandonné pour raisons budgétaires et techniques. En effet, cette version aurait entrainé un surcoût de 270 M€. La répartition entre biplaces et monoplaces devait être de 25/35. Au niveau technique, cette version biplace aurait nécessité l'agrandissement du cockpit et de la verrière ainsi que le déplacement de certains éléments logés derrière le pilote. Par ailleurs la capacité canon aurait du être supprimée et la capacité d'emport carburant réduite de 215 kg pour perdre du poids au catapultage et ainsi rester dans les mêmes limites que le monoplace.

Link/Source: http://ffaa.net/aircraft/rafale/rafale_fr.htm

I wonder if Dassault has some more info and drawings or if I just was an an idea spinning around at French Navy HQ/Ministère de la Défense .
Anyway, the Rafale BM/Rafale N project was more a multi-role attack aircraft than a pure air-to-air fighter, so it would fit perfectly for Volume 2.
Which I am really looking foward to buy, read and study it!
Merci beaucoup!

 

[Deltafan]

Which exotic French project did I miss ? Maybe they will be in volume 2?

JCC

These guys right here:

I présume that it's because they were too :

(...) dropped in the name of making room for something else.

(because of the publisher's recommendations).

as answered previously in this topic by M. Carbonel.

and in the chapter 13 of the book it's probably why M. Carbonel privileged less known/unknown projects (for example MD 707-33 or MD 117-33) rather than all the planes in the article of Le Fana 491 from April 2008 (your "guys").

But he will surely answer better than me

 

[JC Carbonel]

Well thank you all for the added comments. As I said above, I have a limited space in each book so you cannot expect to have all the designs in a similar theme. (Remember I did myself a full book of Coléoptère designs, arguably the weirder-than-weird French designs, out of those only about a dozen made it into FSP.).
And yes, regarding the Mach 3 projects, I selected to have all-new designs rather than annoy my Dassault contact to find me exactly the same pictures had already been published before. (and the Mach 6 designs may go into vol 3 if there is ever a vol 3)
Regarding the Rafale N that's one that completely escaped me !
Right now I am into the review of the text and pictures of vol 2 with a few new additions thrown into it.

JCC

 

[sferrin]

Well thank you all for the added comments. As I said above, I have a limited space in each book so you cannot expect to have all the designs in a similar theme. (Remember I did myself a full book of Coléoptère designs, arguably the weirder-than-weird French designs, out of those only about a dozen made it into FSP.).
And yes, regarding the Mach 3 projects, I selected to have all-new designs rather than annoy my Dassault contact to find me exactly the same pictures had already been published before. (and the Mach 6 designs may go into vol 3 if there is ever a vol 3)
Regarding the Rafale N that's one that completely escaped me !
Right now I am into the review of the text and pictures of vol 2 with a few new additions thrown into it.

JCC

Wasn't necessarily looking for the exact same pictures. I just thought the history might be interesting. :-[

 

[JC Carbonel]

But it is also the point : often with projects (not just the Mach 3 designs) all that survives is ONE illustration. I was very happy to have access to a full file of MD 751 model pictures so I ran all five of them. For most of the others I had nothing but the drawing published...in some case I had the drawing final dot. With hand written comments scribbled on the drawing when I was lucky and no box("cartouche" in French of drawing specification -including scale- when I was unlucky ! So "history" of the subject was pretty thin in those cases!

JCC

 

[Deltafan]

(...) and the Mach 6 designs may go into vol 3 if there is ever a vol 3 (...)

Interesting ! ;D

 

[kaiserd]

But it is also the point : often with projects (not just the Mach 3 designs) all that survives is ONE illustration. I was very happy to have access to a full file of MD 751 model pictures so I ran all five of them. For most of the others I had nothing but the drawing published...in some case I had the drawing final dot. With hand written comments scribbled on the drawing when I was lucky and no box("cartouche" in French of drawing specification -including scale- when I was unlucky ! So "history" of the subject was pretty thin in those cases!

JCC

Thanks for a great book. Pity not a much stronger history of such secret projects; the stories and insights of the designers, airforce officials of the time etc. Hope lessons learned and more details will eventually be available for more recent secret projects.

 

[Arjen]

(and the Mach 6 designs may go into vol 3 if there is ever a vol 3)

Yes, PLEASE!

 

[JC Carbonel]

"the stories and insights of the designers, airforce officials of the time etc."

this is something you had in the Coleoptere book and which you will have (in French) on soon-to-come books on the SO Trident (early 2017), Nord 500 (2017), Breguet Integral (mid 2017). Beside even in the short chapter on Mach 3 aircraft there were quotes of :
- Ingénieur Général Combes (deputy director of STAé at the times)
- Général Philippe Maurin (chief of staff Armée de l'Air)
- Marcel Dassault

The designers responsible for designing the specific projects mentionned in the book were not identified and it was therefore not possible to track them down, assuming they are still alive or wrote down their memories.

JCC

 

[hesham]

"the stories and insights of the designers, airforce officials of the time etc."

this is something you had in the Coleoptere book and which you will have (in French) on soon-to-come books on the SO Trident (early 2017), Nord 500 (2017), Breguet Integral (mid 2017). Beside even in the short chapter on Mach 3 aircraft there were quotes of :
- Ingénieur Général Combes (deputy director of STAé at the times)
- Général Philippe Maurin (chief of staff Armée de l'Air)
- Marcel Dassault

The designers responsible for designing the specific projects mentionned in the book were not identified and it was therefore not possible to track them down, assuming they are still alive or wrote down their memories.

JCC

Good News JCC.

 

[Caravellarella]

Hoping to get a copy of this from santa

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[hesham]

I hope this book answered about this mystery;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,176.msg137720.html#msg137720

 

[JC Carbonel]

Unfortunately this mystery remains a mystery although I am now considering a filiation with the SE Durandal because of the large delta fin. But nothing really conclusive came out. Actually on e-bay three models were offered : one "in flight" , one "on its legs" and one "on trailer". I obtained the "on trailer" one but was outbid on the other two. However the seller by mistake sent me the "on its legs" model which I was able to photograph before having to send it back. The Fana article has a photo of this "on its legs" model.

JCC

 

[hesham]

Thank you JCC.

 

[Michel Van]

Finally i got my Copy of French Secret Projects 1

After two attempts were Belgium post "lost" the package, i used now a Amazon Locker in Germany

This Book is fantastic trip true the post war history of French aircraft proposal !
JC Carbonel you made excellent work to put all those Proposal in one Book
I enjoy the reading !

 

[ford_tempo]

Hello,

Could anybody upload a picture of the table of contents of FSP I ? Also, does the book cover the projects leading to the Rafale as well ?

thanks

F_T

 

[flateric]

yes, it has pre-Rafale stuff

 

[TomTom]

I am desperate to find this book at a decent price...

 

[gollevainen]

I managed to find one here in Finland in this rather small aviation oriented webstore, for price about 36 €....at the same time it was been sold in Amazon for nearly 200€!!

 

[Archibald]

And that one is worse !

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/flying-wings-and-radical-things-northrops-secret-aerospace-projects-concepts.27059/#post-284161

Amazon.com

(although some days ago it was closer from 400 dollars / euros.)

 

[Deltafan]

Hi,

a question

today, the price of the FSP issue 1 is more than 1000 € on the net (1200 on Amazon), while volume 2 is barely around thirty euros.

Can a reissue of volume 1 be considered?

 

[Rolead]

Yes any chance of a reprint of FSP1. I spoke to Crecy Publications at SMW2023 and was told the only way to get a copy was on the second hand market.

 

[Mike0123]

Yes any chance of a reprint of FSP1. I spoke to Crecy Publications at SMW2023 and was told the only way to get a copy was on the second hand market

I was told the same thing. Maybe if enough of us bug them....

 

[Landor742]

I was told the same thing. Maybe if enough of us bug them....

Count me in…

 

[gatoraptor]

I think that if a publisher starts a numbered series, they should be obligated to keep a small stock of all numbers in the series as long as possible, I would say for at least 10 years.

 

[TomTom]

They should try a pre-order like some wargaming companies do. Like a P300, then once XXX copies are pre-order, print and send.

 

[Rolead]

Those that have the book, the chapter on Dassault does it mention any variants based on the Mirage III please.

 

[southwestforests]

does it mention any variants based on the Mirage III please

Maybe not a 100% exact and detailed answer to the question, but there are a lot of Mirage III in the index,

 

[scautomoton]

If numbers are needed for a reprint, put my name down. I can't find a copy anywhere.