PANG-Frances-New-Aircraft-Carrier-Will-be-Nuclear-Powered-2.jpg


some more from the same link

i guess that is Dassaults FCAS in the back, and Rafales in the front
with E2 hawkeye on the catapult.
 
This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.


Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.

624109Pa19and25.jpg
Can someone translate what PA 25 says.
 
This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.


Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.

624109Pa19and25.jpg
Can someone translate what PA 25 says.
"Project PA25 (variant C during the Occupation).
The armament comprised 8 100mm AA, 16 40mm and 20 20mm. After the Liberation, a variant D, of a slightly different silhouette, was provided with 8 100mm AA, 8 quadruple 40mm mounts (including one in the extreme front), and 4 20mm." I'm not sure if for the Variant D, it means 4 quadruple 20mm or 4 20mm in total.
 
This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.


Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.

624109Pa19and25.jpg
Can someone translate what PA 25 says.
"Project PA25 (variant C during the Occupation).
The armament comprised 8 100mm AA, 16 40mm and 20 20mm. After the Liberation, a variant D, of a slightly different silhouette, was provided with 8 100mm AA, 8 quadruple 40mm mounts (including one in the extreme front), and 4 20mm." I'm not sure if for the Variant D, it means 4 quadruple 20mm or 4 20mm in total.
Thank you.
 
Is there any information about PA-21? Unless there isn't info on that I simply didn't see, or if it is a mystery design, or it got skipped over.
 
Acording to Tous Les Porte-Aeronefs En France de 1912 À Nos jours PA-21 was planned hybrid carrier-battleship based on Richelieu, displacement 42 270t, 242m(PP) x 33m x 9.1m, 150 000shp, 31 ktns. It had two hangars, one quadruple 380mm turret, 16 100mm, 16 37mm and 20 25mm AA guns. No mention of aircraft complement. There is a crude linedrawing, which I believe has been posted here already
 
Normandie océan liner conversion proposal into aircraft carrier

 
I discovered this project (which I think is real) to convert the Comandant Teste hydroplane carrier into a light aircraft carrier just after the Second World War.
The Dixmude carrier wiki page states :
The transformation of the seaplane transport Commandant Teste into an escort aircraft carrier was mentioned in October 1945, only to be abandoned the following February.
french-seaplane-carrier-commandant-teste.png.62c3c816967e85bb3d5a0c4897d6b297.png
 
Cdt Teste had been a victim of 11/1942 scuttling. Three years at the bottom of Toulon harbor did no good. Still, it was salvaged - but only as a floating logistics depot. In that role however it lasted until the early 60's - just like Bearn, now a floating barracks. Both saw Foch and Clems IOC at Toulon harbor !
 
I checked. Cdt Teste was moored at Toulon Harbor as a floating logistics store until 1963. Bearn was there too, used as a divers school training barracks until 1967.
Dixmude, Lafayette and Bois Belleau were all decommissionned in 1960-63.
Arromanches remained in service until 1974.
Foch and Clem IOCs were in the 1960-64 era.
So - all french carriers (minus CdG, d'oh) hanged around Toulon harbor circa 1963. A pity we have so few pictures. For a brief time it was a like a museum of French carriers... !
 
I just stumbled upon an old reddit post (in Italian) by @Phoenix_jz that summarizes John Jordan's evaluations of the Joffre from his Warship 2010 article. That post has a mention of PA16A:
"Per prima cosa, il ritmo delle operazioni aeree in tempo di guerra fu gravemente sottostimato e la portaerei aveva una capacità di carburante per l'aviazione insufficiente - 270.000 litri.
...
Come tale, in un progetto riveduto datato gennaio 1945 (PA16A), tenendo conto dell'esperienza in tempo di guerra, il carburante per l'aviazione fu quasi raddoppiato a poco meno di 510.000 litri."
Which apparently translates to
First, the wartime [rate of fuel usage by the airgroup] was seriously underestimated, and the carrier had insufficient aviation fuel capacity - 270,000 litres.
...
As such, in a revised design dated January 1945 (PA16A), taking into account wartime experience, aviation fuel was almost doubled to just under 510,000 litres.

And above, Akaloso quotes Beerbaum's book:
PA16A/PA16B

Dimensions: length: 236m

Displacement: 20.000tons (standard)

Speed: 30 knots

Number of aircrafts: 40

First Project after the end of WWII based on the Joffre design.


Does anyone have further info on these improved PA16 designs?






That PA-25 surely had British heavy AA as no other country used the 4,5" / 114mm calibre.
I have learned recently that apparently during the years of the occupation, the Vichy government planned to use a gun of either 114 or 115mm caliber. This weapon was found on these aforementioned carriers, and on some of their large fleet escort ships (which are briefly mentioned by Jordan). Details are lacking, and Gollevainen, the artist for this drawing, is afraid someone will steal his sources if he shares them before his project is done. Perhaps we might get a bit more info from there later.

1727470946608.png
 
I have stuff regarding these carrier projects as well, I will reveal and share all I got, no worries but unfortunetly you have to wait abit. I’m currently occupied by out third child and our process to move to a bigger house so sparetime is very limited. I expect to be available for this sometime early next year. I have some info on various destroyer projects from vichy and post 1944 era as well which I try to publish sooner

Golly
 
I have stuff regarding these carrier projects as well, I will reveal and share all I got, no worries but unfortunetly you have to wait abit. I’m currently occupied by out third child and our process to move to a bigger house so sparetime is very limited. I expect to be available for this sometime early next year. I have some info on various destroyer projects from vichy and post 1944 era as well which I try to publish sooner

Golly
Congratulation for the expanding family and the new house !
 
I have always had a bit of a weakness for the PA 2 . That the French exhibited well over a decade ago .
It features in a couple of what- if concepts I've considered.
 
No pictures available for PA21 project which was a super Joffre PA16 hybrid like what if ? Jean Bart...
 

Attachments

  • jean_bART pa hybride.jpg
    jean_bART pa hybride.jpg
    169 KB · Views: 123
  • Coupe JOFFRE 280823 small.png
    Coupe JOFFRE 280823 small.png
    549.4 KB · Views: 114
  • Joffre 5 vues plans 1939 v51.png
    Joffre 5 vues plans 1939 v51.png
    289.3 KB · Views: 112
The aircraft carriers Béarn and Dixmude have changed little during their life, no redesign project, however the Commandant Teste had been studied as an aircraft carrier, then as a missile and helicopter test vessel.
The last 2 are free studies of aviation tenders or submarines, all these projects have never been engaged...
 

Attachments

  • PA Béarn 5 vues 1939 v4 small.png
    PA Béarn 5 vues 1939 v4 small.png
    439.8 KB · Views: 39
  • Dixmude PA 5 vues.png
    Dixmude PA 5 vues.png
    457.6 KB · Views: 40
  • Cdt Teste PA 1945.png
    Cdt Teste PA 1945.png
    366.9 KB · Views: 42
  • Cdt Teste PH 1951.png
    Cdt Teste PH 1951.png
    432.9 KB · Views: 41
  • Cdt Teste TA + PBY 1942.png
    Cdt Teste TA + PBY 1942.png
    473.4 KB · Views: 38
  • Cdt Teste TA + SM 1942.png
    Cdt Teste TA + SM 1942.png
    494.9 KB · Views: 65
Sweet. The piston-engine naval planes did not went anywhere. And then it got worse. French atempts at building naval combat jets were a disaster. Four planes build: two VG-90, one NC-1080, one Nord 2200. The results: three crashes, three pilots dead (Decroo, Dellys, and Gallay): two VG-90 and the NC-1080 down in the ground, smoldering craters.

Only the Nord 2200 didn't killed his pilot (mercifully), but it didn't mean it was a good airplane: it was morbidly overweight, and its Nene couldn't face the obesity.
...
By this metric, the SNCASE Aquilon was a bargain. Thanks the British to have created the De Havilland Sea Venom. 113 procured but (the ultimate joke) they could not be safely flown out of La Fayette (30 kt, but 170 m long deck and weak catapults) nor Arromanches (210 m long deck, but too slow: 24 kt). It took until 1960 and Clemenceau for the Aéronavale to fly jets.
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom