French Aircraft Carrier Never-Were Designs and Proposals

[archipeppe]

The CVN-21 Gerald Ford is making school.....

 

[helmutkohl]

some more from the same link

i guess that is Dassaults FCAS in the back, and Rafales in the front
with E2 hawkeye on the catapult.

 

[Hood]

We already have an extensive thread on PA NG here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/pa-ng-next-gen-french-aircraft-carrier-program.30950/page-6

 

[helmutkohl]

We already have an extensive thread on PA NG here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/pa-ng-next-gen-french-aircraft-carrier-program.30950/page-6

thanks. ill ask a mod to delete my post then

 

[BlackBat242]

I have these images...

That is something I worked up from the original PH-75, and is in no way anything other than a figment of my imagination created for an alternate-history exercise.

 

[BlackBat242]

Here is a clearer version of the PA-28 entry in Conway:

 

[MrMemerMan]

This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU (FRANCE) Le porte-avions Clemenceau à la mer. La présence de Crotale indique que la photo est postérieure à octobre 1986 AVANT P

forummarine.forumactif.com

Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.

Can someone translate what PA 25 says.

 

[Fr05ty]

This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU (FRANCE) Le porte-avions Clemenceau à la mer. La présence de Crotale indique que la photo est postérieure à octobre 1986 AVANT P

forummarine.forumactif.com

Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.

Can someone translate what PA 25 says.

"Project PA25 (variant C during the Occupation).
The armament comprised 8 100mm AA, 16 40mm and 20 20mm. After the Liberation, a variant D, of a slightly different silhouette, was provided with 8 100mm AA, 8 quadruple 40mm mounts (including one in the extreme front), and 4 20mm." I'm not sure if for the Variant D, it means 4 quadruple 20mm or 4 20mm in total.

 

[MrMemerMan]

This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU (FRANCE) Le porte-avions Clemenceau à la mer. La présence de Crotale indique que la photo est postérieure à octobre 1986 AVANT P

forummarine.forumactif.com

Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.

Can someone translate what PA 25 says.

"Project PA25 (variant C during the Occupation).
The armament comprised 8 100mm AA, 16 40mm and 20 20mm. After the Liberation, a variant D, of a slightly different silhouette, was provided with 8 100mm AA, 8 quadruple 40mm mounts (including one in the extreme front), and 4 20mm." I'm not sure if for the Variant D, it means 4 quadruple 20mm or 4 20mm in total.

Thank you.

 

[MrMemerMan]

Is there any information about PA-21? Unless there isn't info on that I simply didn't see, or if it is a mystery design, or it got skipped over.

 

[gollevainen]

Acording to Tous Les Porte-Aeronefs En France de 1912 À Nos jours PA-21 was planned hybrid carrier-battleship based on Richelieu, displacement 42 270t, 242m(PP) x 33m x 9.1m, 150 000shp, 31 ktns. It had two hangars, one quadruple 380mm turret, 16 100mm, 16 37mm and 20 25mm AA guns. No mention of aircraft complement. There is a crude linedrawing, which I believe has been posted here already

 

[Antonio]

Normandie océan liner conversion proposal into aircraft carrier

The Normandie That Failed (1942)

JF Ptak Science Books Post 2905 Breezing through a volume of Popular Mechanic for 1942 I came across an article on refitting the French ocean liner, the Normandie. The only thing I knew about her was that the ship was...

longstreet.typepad.com

 

[F.L.]

I discovered this project (which I think is real) to convert the Comandant Teste hydroplane carrier into a light aircraft carrier just after the Second World War.
The Dixmude carrier wiki page states :

The transformation of the seaplane transport Commandant Teste into an escort aircraft carrier was mentioned in October 1945, only to be abandoned the following February.

 

[Archibald]

Cdt Teste had been a victim of 11/1942 scuttling. Three years at the bottom of Toulon harbor did no good. Still, it was salvaged - but only as a floating logistics depot. In that role however it lasted until the early 60's - just like Bearn, now a floating barracks. Both saw Foch and Clems IOC at Toulon harbor !

 

[Archibald]

Well it was actually worse ! Cdt Teste was scuttled, refloated by the italians , sunk by the Allies, and refloated again in 46' by the french. Talk about a jinxed ship ! It was also at MEK in 07/ 1940 but was unscathed. It didn't lasted !

 

[Archibald]

I checked. Cdt Teste was moored at Toulon Harbor as a floating logistics store until 1963. Bearn was there too, used as a divers school training barracks until 1967.
Dixmude, Lafayette and Bois Belleau were all decommissionned in 1960-63.
Arromanches remained in service until 1974.
Foch and Clem IOCs were in the 1960-64 era.
So - all french carriers (minus CdG, d'oh) hanged around Toulon harbor circa 1963. A pity we have so few pictures. For a brief time it was a like a museum of French carriers... !

 

[BlackBat242]

First - Toulon 1956 (caption lists ships):




Arromanches in Toulon with Clemenceau and LaFayette between Nov 1961 & March 1963:




Toulon 1966:

 

[F.L.]

Thank you @BlackBat242 !!!!

 

[Archibald]

The Bearn near the end...

 

[BlackBat242]

Likely during her diver school barracks phase:

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

I found this link about french aircraft carriers post-Second World War end and have little mentions about projects and convertions.

https://lefauteuildecolbert.blogspot.com/2013/08/les-six-porte-avions-de-letude-du-20.html

 

[YourChair]

I just stumbled upon an old reddit post (in Italian) by @Phoenix_jz that summarizes John Jordan's evaluations of the Joffre from his Warship 2010 article. That post has a mention of PA16A:

"Per prima cosa, il ritmo delle operazioni aeree in tempo di guerra fu gravemente sottostimato e la portaerei aveva una capacità di carburante per l'aviazione insufficiente - 270.000 litri.
...
Come tale, in un progetto riveduto datato gennaio 1945 (PA16A), tenendo conto dell'esperienza in tempo di guerra, il carburante per l'aviazione fu quasi raddoppiato a poco meno di 510.000 litri."

Which apparently translates to

First, the wartime [rate of fuel usage by the airgroup] was seriously underestimated, and the carrier had insufficient aviation fuel capacity - 270,000 litres.
...
As such, in a revised design dated January 1945 (PA16A), taking into account wartime experience, aviation fuel was almost doubled to just under 510,000 litres.

And above, Akaloso quotes Beerbaum's book:

PA16A/PA16B

Dimensions: length: 236m

Displacement: 20.000tons (standard)

Speed: 30 knots

Number of aircrafts: 40

First Project after the end of WWII based on the Joffre design.

Does anyone have further info on these improved PA16 designs?

That PA-25 surely had British heavy AA as no other country used the 4,5" / 114mm calibre.

I have learned recently that apparently during the years of the occupation, the Vichy government planned to use a gun of either 114 or 115mm caliber. This weapon was found on these aforementioned carriers, and on some of their large fleet escort ships (which are briefly mentioned by Jordan). Details are lacking, and Gollevainen, the artist for this drawing, is afraid someone will steal his sources if he shares them before his project is done. Perhaps we might get a bit more info from there later.

 

[gollevainen]

I have stuff regarding these carrier projects as well, I will reveal and share all I got, no worries but unfortunetly you have to wait abit. I’m currently occupied by out third child and our process to move to a bigger house so sparetime is very limited. I expect to be available for this sometime early next year. I have some info on various destroyer projects from vichy and post 1944 era as well which I try to publish sooner

Golly

 

[Archibald]

I have stuff regarding these carrier projects as well, I will reveal and share all I got, no worries but unfortunetly you have to wait abit. I’m currently occupied by out third child and our process to move to a bigger house so sparetime is very limited. I expect to be available for this sometime early next year. I have some info on various destroyer projects from vichy and post 1944 era as well which I try to publish sooner

Golly

Congratulation for the expanding family and the new house !

 

[GK Dundas]

I have always had a bit of a weakness for the PA 2 . That the French exhibited well over a decade ago .
It features in a couple of what- if concepts I've considered.

 

[GK Dundas]

That is something I worked up from the original PH-75, and is in no way anything other than a figment of my imagination created for an alternate-history exercise.

I've always liked it .
It fitted a niche role but it fit it very well.

 

[NeverWasNeverWillBe]

Here are some photos of Joffre under construction

French Aircraft Carrier Joffre - Destination's Journey

Joffre was laid down on 18 Nov 1938 but the start of World War II led to a slow down in construction and cessation in June 1940

www.destinationsjourney.com