Hello there!
I've been trying to find data on French aircraft carrier designs between the Joffre and the Clemenceau (PA-54). I've found plenty of data on the PA-28, but I'm very interested in the supposed PA-25 design from Vichy France and the PA-27, PA-29, PA-31 designs from 1945 onwards, though information on any design after the Joffre (PA-16) would be great. Does anybody have data on them? Even sources to check would be of great help!
I've not heard of PA-25 from Vichy, I thought Vichy was such a puppet government that they did not allowed or done any military research...
But let's see:
The Porte Avions after Joffre:
PA-28: (Clemenceau) (Not the Clemenceau that was built)
Designed: 1946, 1 ship proposed
Dimensions: 215(pp or wl) x 230(oa) x 36 x 6,5m
Displacement: 15.700tons (standard) 20.000tons (full load)
Engine Power: 105.000shp Steam Turbines most likely Parsons, 2 shafts
Speed: 59km/h
Armour: None
Armament:
8x2 100mm/55 Modéle 1945 DP-AA Guns
8x2 57mm/60 Modéle 1951 AA Guns
Around 49 aircraft
PA-54: (Clemenceau)
Designed: 1955, 2 ship proposed and built, data per as built ships
PH-57 (Jeanne d'Arc)
Designed: 1956, Helicopter Carrier or Helicopter Cruiser Jeanne d'Arc, data per as built ship
PA-58: (Verdun)
Designed: 1958, 1 ship proposed
Dimensions: 262(pp or wl) x 286(oa) x 58 x 7,2m
Displacement: 35.000tons (standard) 45.500tons (full load)
Engine Power: 200.000shp Steam Turbines most likely Parsons, 4 shafts
Speed: 61km/h
Armour: 50mm Deck and 50mm Belt
Armament:
2x2 Masurca SAM
8x1 100mm/55 Modéle 1953 DP-AA Guns
Around 32 aircraft
PA-88: ( PAN-88??? )
Designed: Around 1960-70's, 2 ships proposed, evovled from PH-75 / PHN-75
Dimensions: 208(oa) x 46 x 6,5m
Displacement: 16.400tons (standard) 18.400tons (full load)
Engine Power: 65.000shp Nuclear Reactor probably Areva K15, 2 shafts
Speed: 52km/h
Armour: None
Armament:
2x8 R440 Crotale SAM
2x1 100mm/55 Modéle 1968 DP-AA Guns
Around 25 aircraft
New Numbering series:
PAN-1: (Charles de Gaulle)
Designed: 1986, 2 ship proposed only Charles de Gaulle finished, sister ship not started, data per as built ship
PA-2: (If I remember correctly this was the French QE variant)
Designed: 2015, 1 ship proposed
Dimensions: 283(oa) x 73 x 11,5m
Displacement: 75.000tons (standard)
Engine Power: 98.000shp Steam Turbines most likely Parsons, 2 shafts
Speed: 48km/h
Armour: None
Armament:
2x8 Aster-30 SAM
8x1 20mm/90 GIAT Modéle 693 AA Guns
Around 34 aircraft
You've gone quite a bit farther in time than I was asking for Tzoli, but I suppose it's a good idea to put all the aircraft carrier information somewhere and this thread's title would certainly make it easy to find. You went past the PA-54 and onwards!! Oh, the Verdun... How an interesting ship it was and never built... Didn't know about PH-75 and PA-88!
Would you happen to have anything related to the preliminary designs for the Clemenceau (PA-28)? I'm trying to find some larger aircraft carrier designs from that time, that's why I mentioned PA-27, PA-29 and PA-31. It was considered that Clemenceau (PA-28) was a small/medium aircraft carrier and there were also designs for a large aircraft carrier that weren't chosen due to time and budget constraints. It is mentioned in the article I linked.
There are official drawings of the pre WW2 designs but sadly the person(s) who uplaoded them to the net ware done in sucha horrid low quality you cannot read their details both data or drawings details.
I know the details, apart from the ones I've posted:
PA-1-5, 5B, 6,9-16
and the LPH designs of 1997 (limited info)
BIP-8,10,13,19
BPC 140, 160, 250
Post them up! No harm in having more data here, we can make this thread into a repository of French Aircraft Carriers. I'll still be hunting for those designs, but there's no harm in having more designs here. The pre-Joffre designs would also be cool!
This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.
PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU (FRANCE) Le porte-avions Clemenceau à la mer. La présence de Crotale indique que la photo est postérieure à octobre 1986 AVANT P
forummarine.forumactif.com
Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.
I think it's unlikely that the PA-2, which you are correct in saying was a QE variant, would have been propelled by a steam plant. That would require a lot of re-arrangement of spaces across the ship, because the QE prime powerplants are located under the islands in the starboard sponson. There is no way steam turbines or boilers would fit in those spaces, and the MN would also lose the advantages of a modern IEP powered ship for the excess manning requirements of a steam plant.
Steam for the cats would probably be provided by a "donkey boiler".
That is quite an old data I have maybe when I collected the data Steam Turbines were considered as well.
Wiki states Gas turbines and Diesel Electric engines so CODLAG or CODLOG? (COmbined Diesel-Electric And/Or Gas)
Also there are some other projects like the conversion of the 2 Heavy Cruisers of the Duquesne class in 1942 or the conversion proposal of Jean Bart into either a hybrid BBCV (1945) or full scale Carrier (1944) by US help.
Yep these are the small scans someone uplaoded many years ago. You cannot read the details.
Someone should rescan them from the French archives in some readable quality!
I have found no good English sources about these, but I recognize the the format of the pictures that Julio Garay Terrazas posted as it looks remarkably similar to John Jordan's statblocks from French Battleships/Cruisers/Destroyers 1922-1956. I would assume that he must have published these in one of his publications, so I'll scour the Warships books to see if I get lucky. For the other 2 books above, I've no idea as to how to get them.
Per Moulin and Jordan's " French Cruisers 1922-1946," The Duquesne CVL conversion had 3-4 configurations, all but one keeping some of the 8" guns. The pure CVL had no island and stacks on the port side. While it was at that moment I petulantly slammed the book shut as no drawings were provided, Shipbucket did make an attempt which looks plausible.
That is quite an old data I have maybe when I collected the data Steam Turbines were considered as well.
Wiki states Gas turbines and Diesel Electric engines so CODLAG or CODLOG? (COmbined Diesel-Electric And/Or Gas)
Good information in the second link. The part about adding a centre shaft at the end of the article is news to me.
I thnk any suggestion of steam turbine power is probably over people writing early articles and getting confused over "auxiliary boilers" for the cats, or getting confused over nuclear powered designs.
Some more information about French CVs from Beerbaum -‘The French Aircraft Carriers’(ASIN : B01IISKBWW).
PA1 also called “Croiseur d’Aviation” - aircraft cruiser, also have had some floatplanes on board that were to be launched with catapults, one at the lower stern deck and one over the bow. The floatplanes could be taken on board with cranes. It had a strong artillery armament with eight 203mm guns in twin turrets two fore and two aft at the sides. The island was to be installed on the port side. The land planes could be transported to and from the hangar with two lifts.
The difference to PA1 was that PA2 was to have no island. In this design also floatplanes should be embarked.
PA3 was to be a small carrier without the heavy artillery. From this design onwards no floatplanes should be carried on board making the ship a true aircraft carrier. The island followed more or less the design of PA1. The artillery, very likely dual purpose guns, was concentrated fore and aft the flight deck. Two lifts were thought to be enough for a ship of this size. All in all it seems that this design, although rather light, would have been a quite well balanced ship for service in the French Navy providing it with 4 carriers of this size within the limits of the Washington Naval Treaty.
PA4 was an enlarged version of PA3. Within the limits of the Naval Treaties only 3 ships of this design could have been built. With a higher top speed, however, this ship could have better operated together with the cruiser and big destroyers of the French Navy.
PA5 was to be an enlarged version of PA4. Following international design standards of the time this ship was to have a fighter take-off deck like HMS Courageous. One difference fromthe English design was that the French wanted to install two hangars into the ship.
PA6 was another version of a hybrid carrier-cruiser. The idea was to have the main armament in two triple turrets on the forward part of the deck slightly put to the port side. According to the technical data aircraft could be launched with a catapult over the bow. It is unknown, whether aircraft could also be launched just from the normal flight deck. One hangar, which was open at the front end possible for aircraft to get to the catapult. The effects of the guns’ blast to aircraft on the catapult probably damage them. Also the transport of aircraft to the catapult when the turrets were in action would have been not possible. For a ship of this size the aircraft component was also were limited, typical for hybrid carrier concepts.
Not much is known about the PA7-PA9 designs. It is likely, that they were somehow variants of the PA6 design without the island.
PA10 would have been a light flush-deck carrier with one single hangar. With top speed it would have been able to work together with the cruisers and destroyer leaders of the French navy. It is quite likely that the ship was exactly intended for this purpose. The armament was sufficient for a ship of this size.
PA11 was an enlarged version of PA10. This was must have been put into a higher power of propulsion as the 1kn more in the top speed indicates. This top speed might have been necessary as the big destroyers of the French navy were designed with ever higher top speeds to counter the Italian’s light cruisers they would have been to fight against.
PA12
Designed: 1934
Dimensions: 220 (oa)
Displacement: 17.300tons (standard)
Engine Power: unknown
Speed: 24 knots
Armour: unknown
Armament:
6x2 100mm/45 Modéle 1933 DP-AA Guns
8x4 13,2mm/76 Modéle 1929 AA Guns
Around 28 aircraft
1 hangar and 2 lifts
PA12 was a further enlarged version of PA10-11. The higher displacement might have been invested in more armor.
PA13 meant a total turnaround in French aircraft carrier designs. With two hangar the Service Technique calculated to have an aircraft component of 70 on board, making the ship a true fleet carrier, comparable with contemporary designs. It should have been equipped with an island at the starboard side and armed with an adequate number of heavy AA guns to be supplemented by a number of lighter AA guns later. It is worth to note that the lower hangar was split into a forward and an aft part in order to have enough room for the machinery.
PA14 was in many parts similar to PA13 although it would have had some more aircraft on board as its predecessor. The lower hangar would not have been split into two parts therefore adding the space for extra aircrafts.
PA15
Designed: 1936
Dimensions: 250 (oa)
Displacement: 23.000tons (standard)
Engine Power: unknown
Speed: 30 knots
Armour: Side protection of 105 mm
Armament:
3x2 130mm/45 Modéle 1932 DP-AA Guns
Around 70-80 aircrafts
1 hangar and 2 lifts
PA15 should be accommodate 70-80 aircraft, with a top speed able to operate together with cruisers and flotilla leaders. Furthermore did the French plan to add a side protection the same as the contemporary light cruisers of the La Galissonière-class. PA15 was the preliminary design for the Joffre Class.
Shame we did not build a second Béarn from one of these Normandie hulls seating in the shipyard until 1925. The WNT would have allowed for it, tonnage wise (23500*2 = 47000 tons out of 60 000 tons) and the Wikipedia page by itself has all the improvements discussed for the Normandies in 1918-1924.
Propulsion: 4 sets of Rateau-Bretagne geared turbines with 9 Guyot Du Temple boliers
Engine Power: 120.000 hp
Speed: 33,75 knots
Armour: Side: 25 mm
Armament:
2x2 203mm/50 Mod24
8x1 76mm/60 Mod22
4x2 37mm
12x1 13,2mm
2x3 533mm TT
Number of aircrafts: 12-14
Complement: 605
1 hangar 2 lifts
The obvious diference between A and B was the posision of the remain 2x2 203mm turrets. In fore position on A and in the aft position in B. Design D was almost the same of A but with a slighty bigger hangar.
Propulsion: 4 sets of Rateau-Bretagne geared turbines with 9 Guyot Du Temple boliers
Engine Power: 120.000 hp
Speed: 33,75 knots
Armour: Side: 25 mm
Armament:
8x1 76mm/60 Mod22
4x2 37mm
12x1 13,2mm
2x3 533mm TT
Number of aircrafts: 12-14
Complement: 605
1 hangar 2 lifts
The following text comes from Truebe, ‘Warship International, No. 54/3 - Sep / 2017’ and shows slightly different information, but doesn’t explain why Project C had the same number of aircraft as others with smaller hangars:
2 hangar and 2 lifts
The Armistice between France and Germany did not mean an end to French carrier designs. As far as it is known the Germans did even encourage their French counterparts to continue with designing carriers. The first designs, which came out of this work were hybrid-carriers with a strong artillery armament. The type itself was called PA-PC, which means Porte-Avions Partout Cuirassé (aircraft carrier completely armored). Something, which is worth to note and in which the French designs differ from other contemporary hybrid schemes is the fact that here also the hangar sides were to be armored in order to withstand hits from enemy artillery. All in all this scheme resembled the Joffre-class with an additional 330mm quadruple gun on the fore part of the ship, quite possibly underneath the flight deck. A rather awkward decision as the flight deck would have hindered the complete use of the turret as the guns’ elevation was restricted by it. The turret itself was to be the same as already in use on the battleships/battlecruisers of the Dunkerque-class. It is not known how many aircraft the ship might have embarked, but is likely that the number would have been slightly smaller than on board the Joffre-class due to the fact that the hangar would have been slightly smaller.
PA1PC2
Dimensions: length: 238.2 m/ beam: 31.5 m
Displacement: 50.000tons (standard)
Engine Power: 120,000 hp
Speed: 30 knots
Armour: Side protection of 210 mm
Armament:
1x4 330mm
12x2 114mm
20 25mm
Number of aircrafts: unknown
2 hangar and 2 lifts
This project resembled the PA1 PC in most details. The only difference was the fact that the armor was to be reduced, but still it should have been enough to give enough protection against 203mm shells of heavy cruisers.
PA1
Dimensions: length: 236 m/ beam: 34.5 m / draught: 6.6 m
Displacement: 30.000tons (standard)
Engine Power: 60,000 hp
Speed: 25 knots
Armour: unknown
Armament:
1x4 305mm
Number of aircrafts: unknown
With this type French naval designers started a new line of projects. They were also to have a rather strong artillery armament, therefore making them hybrid carriers, but the top speed was to be reduced. It was decided to half the propulsion from 4 to 2 sets of geared turbines in contrast to the Joffre and the PA-PC designs. Another difference was the fact that the sides of the hangars would not have been armored. The heavy turret was to be located aft in order to be used in a tactical situation when the ship would have had to evade enemy ships.
PA2
Dimensions: length: 265 m
Displacement: 30.000tons (standard)
Engine Power: unknown
Speed: unknown
Armour: unknown
Armament:
1x4 280mm
Number of aircrafts: unknown
PA2 would have been a reduced version of PA1. Also the main armament would have been reduced to one 280mm quadruple turret. According to calculations it was feared that the ship would have been down by the stern. Therefore it was decided to add a dead weight of about 1,500ts into the bow.
PA3/PA4
Dimensions: length: 238 m
Displacement: 35.000tons (standard)
Engine Power: unknown
Speed: unknown
Armour: unknown
Armament:
unknown
Number of aircrafts: unknown
As the PA2 design did not convince the French officials the Service Technique developed the designs PA3 and PA4 which were more or less the same. The armament of one 280mm quadruple turret was taken over from the design. But as stability problems seemed quite likely with these two designs. They were not pursued but put aside and a new design PA5A was developed.
PA5A
Dimensions: length: 238 m
Displacement: 35.000tons (standard)
Engine Power: unknown
Speed: unknown
Armour: unknown
Armament:
unknown
Number of aircrafts: unknown
This type differed from PA3/PA4 not very much. The most prominent difference was the enlargement of the height of the hangar from 4.8m to 6m.
PA5B
Dimensions: length: 238 m
Displacement: 42.000tons (standard)
Engine Power: 110.000 hp
Speed: unknown
Armour: Side: 248 mm / Flight Deck 130 mm
Armament:
1x4 280mm
6x2 114mm
30x4 25mm
Number of aircrafts: 40
PA5B was the most elaborate of all the French hybrid carrier projects, which was made during WWII. The ship’s design dates back to 1944. It resembled, with its enclosed bow contemporary British carriers. Especially worth to note is the fact that the screws and the rudder would have been protected by some kind of tunnel from torpedo hits. It is quite likely that this design feature had its reason in the unlucky torpedo hit on the German battleship Bismarck. The ship had been hit by a single aerial torpedo by a Royal Navy Swordfish disabling it. The Germans had envisaged a similar design in their last battleship projects of the H-44 class. Whether or not both parties were aware of each others’ design is not known. As with most of the French hybrid designs here again the main armament was to be located aft for reasons already mentioned. Even though this hybrid scheme promised to bring a rather well balanced ship it had the dame design flaws as all the other hybrid carrier projects mentioned.
I have looked online for that book by Beerbaum and do not see it anywhere, even an acknowledgement in a library. Can you provide some more information?
I have looked online for that book by Beerbaum and do not see it anywhere, even an acknowledgement in a library. Can you provide some more information?
I have looked online for that book by Beerbaum and do not see it anywhere, even an acknowledgement in a library. Can you provide some more information?
Ok PA 76 looks very interesting, are those steam catapults, if so where does the steam come from as the listed propulsion is GTs and diesels?
I wonder if this is the French design that was referred to in the Australian cabinet papers referring to the replacement of HMAS Melbourne?
For PA-5B that 280m (or 283mm???) was not a standard French Calibre. The closest was the 274mm/50 Modéle 1906 not used on any warship.
If the Germans were co-operating with the French/Vichy on this design then the design might had influenced by the Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IV which too had a single quad 283mm turret though on the front not to mention the German design was much larger (280m) and heavier (70.000tons)
The Vichy government re-started the numbering? having PA-1 from the 1940's and 1x4 305mm rather the first PA-1 of 1929 and 4x2 203mm?
This book (Beerbaum -‘The French Aircraft Carriers’) is the 3rd of ‘The Aircraft Carriers of the World’ collection with 10 volumes. The only version I know only available on Kindle. It is very cheap compared to the printed books. The other one I mentioned (Dousset, Francis - Les Porte-Avions Français - des origines 1911 a nos jours) is only available in France. I found one that was not too expensive in Abe Books but the site has a really long delivery time and I haven't received the book yet.
Now the french projects after WWII data from the Beerbaum book:
PA16A/PA16B
Dimensions: length: 236m
Displacement: 20.000tons (standard)
Speed: 30 knots
Number of aircrafts: 40
First Project after the end of WWII based on the Joffre design.
PA19
Dimensions: length: 260m
Displacement: 30.000tons (standard)
Speed: 30 knots
Armament:
4x3 155mm
Number of aircrafts: 50
1 hangar
2 lifts
The PA19 project tried to incorporate the experiences of WWII, but this design was still orientated in the end along the lines of the Joffre. This design would have been equipped with a very heavy artillery component for use against surface targets.
PA25
Dimensions: length: 250m
Displacement: 25.000tons (standard)
Speed: 30 knots
Armament:
4x2 114mm
8X2 37mm
40x1 20mm
Number of aircrafts: unknown
1 hangar
2 lifts
In contrast to the other carrier designs developed after WWII the PA25 would have had a very strong AA armament. It is unknown if the heavy AA artillery should have been of British origin as the caliber suggests. The ship was to have an enclosed bow to improve its seaworthiness.
PA27
Displacement: 30.000tons (standard)
According to the author this design was only a study.
PA29
No data about this design, indicated as an alternative to the Clemenceau.
I've now bought 3 of the books from Beerbaum (French, Italian and small Navies). It's a good source, but a bit limited in data at times.
If you ever manage to get Francis Dousset's book, I'd be very interested in what designs there were after the Joffre. I think it's our best bet to get some hard data on the PA-27 & PA-29 designs.
I've also emailed the Institut de Recherche Stratégique de l'Ecole Militaire last week, but I've received no reply.
Can you give design dates for these post WW2 proposals?
That PA-25 surely had British heavy AA as no other country used the 4,5" / 114mm calibre.
20mm is surely the Oerlikon most likely the US version as mounted on the Bearn late war
The 37mm is an interesting choice.
French had two 37mm guns pre occupation the Modèle 1940 Zénithaux which was an anti dive bomber weapon and the older Modèle 1935
Britian might be considering this calibre for it's DACR system post war but it was finally cancelled by the early mid 1950's when the 40mm/70 Bofors gun took over it's place in the designs.
Sweden did not had a modern 37mm gun, Soviet Union is an unlikely candidate which leaves us the German guns probably spares from the war the 37mm FlaK M43 and M42.
Italy too had this calibre but too prewar
French President Emmanuel Macron today officially green lighted the construction of a new nuclear-powered aircraft carrier as part of the PANG program. The future flag ship of the Marine Nationale is intended to replace the existing "Charles de Gaulle" around 2038.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
